Let us discuss the Land

Fusion77 said:

I don't find any logical reason to spiritualize what should be taken literally.

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Here's One: God is spirit.

ScottA said:

Here's One: God is spirit.

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I interpret that literally. Don't you?

Fusion77 said:

I interpret that literally. Don't you?

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And, what...you don't want to be "like" Him...even though all of scripture points to that eventuality - because what you consider "literal" is all that matters?

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Don't be discouraged brother if it does not happen, but, I believe it could. I started studying end time prophecy back in the 80's. I have seen many things happen, and many things predicted to happen that did not happen. The wait gets long, but keep oil in your lamp and don't allow men to pull you by various doctrines.

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Thanks for the encouragement. I'll always trust that what God says will happen, will come to pass.

If nothing happens though, this year or next, I will have to reevaluate some personal things. It's not like the last 12 1/2 years of my life have been bad. I've just been planning (mostly mentally) for this.

Fusion77 said:

Thanks for the encouragement. I'll always trust that what God says will happen, will come to pass.

If nothing happens though, this year or next, I will have to reevaluate some personal things. It's not like the last 12 1/2 years of my life have been bad. I've just been planning (mostly mentally) for this.

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What are you looking for in the very near future?

I don't think we should expect the Tribulation to start at any moment.

Luke 21:17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.

We aren't there yet. Christianity is still tolerated or respected by many unbelievers.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

If you ask missions organizations like CRU (formerly, Campus Crusade), they will tell you that we have still have quite a few unreached peoples, tongues, tribes. They are fervently working to reduce the gap, though.

Matthew 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

Lawlessness is definitely climbing, but I don't think we're there yet, either, that the pervasiveness of wickedness results in the love of many growing cold.

Hearts and infrastructure take a little time to change. I would be shocked if the Tribulation commences before 2020, and personally I think it may be closer to 2030 for an early date.

There is a passage (Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:3) which makes me wonder if Israel's revival could occur anytime after 2033 (~ two thousand years after Jesus ascended).

Luke17:37 said:

What are you looking for in the very near future?

I don't think we should expect the Tribulation to start at any moment.

Luke 21:17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.

We aren't there yet. Christianity is still tolerated or respected by many unbelievers.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

If you ask missions organizations like CRU (formerly, Campus Crusade), they will tell you that we have still have quite a few unreached peoples, tongues, tribes. They are fervently working to reduce the gap, though.

Matthew 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

Lawlessness is definitely climbing, but I don't think we're there yet, either, that the pervasiveness of wickedness results in the love of many growing cold.

Hearts and infrastructure take a little time to change. I would be shocked if the Tribulation commences before 2020, and personally I think it may be closer to 2030 for an early date.

There is a passage (Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:3) which makes me wonder if Israel's revival could occur anytime after 2033 (~ two thousand years after Jesus ascended).

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I am expecting a major event to happen most likely this year. If not this year, it would have to be next year, in order for my theory to be correct. This event would include some sort of a war and possibly natural disasters. It would be great enough to shake up humanity and cause them to be more open to receive the gospel (at least I think). Remember how many churches were full (briefly) after 9/11. So I think there will be some sort of a revival after this event. Again, if this event doesn't happen this year or next year, I will have to do some re-examining.

If it does happen, I still think we're at least 5-15 years until the great tribulation. If it doesn't happen, I don't know? Could still be 5-15, but it just means I've been mistaken about some things.

Fusion77 said:

I am expecting a major event to happen most likely this year. If not this year, it would have to be year, in order for my theory to be correct. This event would include some sort of a war and possibly natural disasters. It would be great enough to shake up humanity and cause them to be more open to receive the gospel (at least I think). Remember how many churches were full (briefly) after 9/11. So I think there will be some sort of a revival after this event. Again, if this event doesn't happen this year or next year, I will have to do some re-examining.

If it does happen, I still think we're at least 5-15 years until the great tribulation. If it doesn't happen, I don't know? Could still be 5-15, but it just means I've been mistaken about some things.

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Stick to the plan - which is to have faith in God, praying, loving and trusting in Jesus.

ScottA said:

And, what...you don't want to be "like" Him...even though all of scripture points to that eventuality - because what you consider "literal" is all that matters?

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I'm saying, I take a literal approach. Sometimes things should definitely be taken symbolically. If a literal interpretation is not applicable then other possibilities should be explored. Of course, other times the bible simply states if something is figurative or symbolic.

Douggg said:

Stick to the plan - which is to have faith in God, praying, loving and trusting in Jesus.

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Well said!

God said in Deuteronomy 32:43 that He would avenge the blood of His servants and cleanse His Land.
Deuteronomy 32:35 To Me belongs the vengeance......and the Day of calamity [for the ungodly] is at hand.

Fusion77 said:

I am expecting a major event to happen most likely this year.

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Like you, I expected this dramatic event to happen before now. But we still await 3 things:
1/ Elijah, or a man in Elijah's strength to become known. He will work to reconcile Judah and Israel. Malachi 4:5
2/ The loss of good leadership in Israel. Isaiah 3:1-7.
3/ The godless saying: 'Peace and safety'. 1 Thessalonians 5:3

In the mean time, get on with our lives and when the Lord does take action, stand firm in your faith and be seen doing good works.

keras said:

God said in Deuteronomy 32:43 that He would avenge the blood of His servants and cleanse His Land.
Deuteronomy 32:35 To Me belongs the vengeance......and the Day of calamity [for the ungodly] is at hand.

Like you, I expected this dramatic event to happen before now. But we still await 3 things:
1/ Elijah, or a man in Elijah's strength to become known. He will work to reconcile Judah and Israel. Malachi 4:5
2/ The loss of good leadership in Israel. Isaiah 3:1-7.
3/ The godless saying: 'Peace and safety'. 1 Thessalonians 5:3

In the mean time, get on with our lives and when the Lord does take action, stand firm in your faith and be seen doing good works.

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Amen to that!


On a different note, I guess you don't think John the Baptist completely fulfilled Malachi 4:5-6? Because that is a debatable question. Or perhaps one like Elijah will come again?

5“Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.6“He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”

Luke 1:17 speaking of John

17“It is he who will go as a forerunnerbefore Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

I know when the disciples remarked to Jesus that the scribes said Elijah must come. Jesus said Elijah came as John.

Matthew 17:10-13

”10And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

Because, I was thinking God will raise up someone after the event I was expecting. Because, after that, the people would be more receptive to hear the Gospel. Maybe someone like Elijah.

Fusion77 said:

I'm saying, I take a literal approach. Sometimes things should definitely be taken symbolically. If a literal interpretation is not applicable then other possibilities should be explored. Of course, other times the bible simply states if something is figurative or symbolic.

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I can see we need to talk terms (you have it all backwards):

If God is the Creator of all things, it is He and His kingdom that is "literal"...and all the world was "created", i.e. made up, and not literal from His perspective.

You can't wag the dog (so to speak) and come away with anything in its proper place. A discussion of ultimate truth cannot be had from that perspective. We can talk about the land all day by your definition of literal, and never touch on what it represents, and that is fine. But if we are actually going to get to the bottom of what God has done in the manifestation of the land and what it represents from HIS perspective...then it will have nothing to do with your definition of what is literal...but His.

So...you decide...but if you are going to leave God's perspective and definition of what is literal out of the equation...then it's just worm dirt.

ScottA said:

If God is the Creator of all things, it is He and His kingdom that is "literal"...and all the world was created, i.e. made up, and not literal.

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I don't dispute that God and His Kingdom is literal. I just don't agree that we're in the midst of the 1000 year reign now. When the bible mentions 1000 year reign...say in Revelation 20:4 I take that literally


4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I see this (1000 years) as occurring after the mark of the beast has been instituted. I haven't seen or heard or been required to receive it, in order to buy or sell. Your position seems too complicated and hidden from the common believer. I can understand God hiding things from those who seek Him with wrong motives. But, from the man who earnestly seeks Him? I just don't see it. I think the literal approach is the correct approach. Life can already be confusing enough as it is. Why would God hide, what I see as pretty basic principles from those who seek Him earnestly?

Fusion77 said:

I am expecting a major event to happen most likely this year. If not this year, it would have to be next year, in order for my theory to be correct. This event would include some sort of a war and possibly natural disasters. It would be great enough to shake up humanity and cause them to be more open to receive the gospel (at least I think). Remember how many churches were full (briefly) after 9/11. So I think there will be some sort of a revival after this event. Again, if this event doesn't happen this year or next year, I will have to do some re-examining.

If it does happen, I still think
we're at least 5-15 years until the great tribulation. If it doesn't happen, I don't know? Could still be 5-15, but it just means I've been mistaken about some things.

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Okay.

I think the end times is more characterized by apostasy and hard hearts than revival (except for the house of Israel). But I hope there will be some revival, too, especially among the elect.

2 Timothy 3:1-9
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

I'm hoping it won't be as bleak as I imagine. I wonder if half the people we think are saved will fall away. (5 wise, 5 foolish virgins.) Seeing loved ones be deceived will probably be more devastating than the physical aspects.

Fusion77 said:

On a different note, I guess you don't think John the Baptist completely fulfilled Malachi 4:5-6? Because that is a debatable question. Or perhaps one like Elijah will come again?

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Well, we haven't experienced the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath as yet, so Malachi 4:5-6 can still be fulfilled.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not see anywhere that John the Baptist 'turned the hearts of the fathers to the children.....so that I do not come and strike the Land with a curse.
About all JtB did was baptize Jesus and after the Jews killed Him, the Land was 'struck with a curse'. Mark Twain can attest to that. [Travels in Palestine]

keras said:

Well, we haven't experienced the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath as yet, so Malachi 4:5-6 can still be fulfilled.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not see anywhere that John the Baptist 'turned the hearts of the fathers to the children.....so that I do not come and strike the Land with a curse.
About all JtB did was baptize Jesus and after the Jews killed Him, the Land was 'struck with a curse'. Mark Twain can attest to that. [Travels in Palestine]

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Luke 1:17 is close to saying that, but nothing about a curse.

17“It is he who will go as a forerunnerbefore Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

I guess the explanation about the Day of the Lord, could be, that it states Elijah will come before that time. Then, That JTB came before, obviously not immediately before, but before.

I guess I'm 50/50 on this. It sure looks like there's unfulfilled things regarding Elijah. On the other hand, Jesus said "Elijah has come" speaking of John.

Fusion77 said:

I don't dispute that God and His Kingdom is literal. I just don't agree that we're in the midst of the 1000 year reign now. When the bible mentions 1000 year reign...say in Revelation 20:4 I take that literally


4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I see this (1000 years) as occurring after the mark of the beast has been instituted. I haven't seen or heard or been required to receive it, in order to buy or sell. Your position seems too complicated and hidden from the common believer. I can understand God hiding things from those who seek Him with wrong motives. But, from the man who earnestly seeks Him? I just don't see it. I think the literal approach is the correct approach. Life can already be confusing enough as it is. Why would God hide, what I see as pretty basic principles from those who seek Him earnestly?

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Your position is the most common...even reasonable and understandable. Then again, that is the position of those who missed the coming of Christ and even crucified Him, who swore the temple was made of [literal] stones, etc. You have somehow missed that God has indeed hid Himself and blinded and stopped the ears of those who seek Him: Isaiah 42:19. And although God is not the Author of confusion toward His own doings as Paul stated, He is indeed the Author of confusion of the literal language that you hold to, as He Himself stated: Genesis 11:9...of which Christ gave instruction on how we are to view all scripture: Mark 4:13. But you read the same words given to those inside and out, and see them the same as the atheists: Mark 4:11.

I have made my case with the literal reality that you choose to ignore. Nonetheless, God will not disappoint.