Open Challenge - Explain why Israel is important from the NT

Hi all,

I'm sure there will be some disagreement over how prophecies are worked out. Just as we have disagreement over whether the prophecy of the Antichrist standing on a wing of the temple..., was fulfilled in 70 AD or is yet to be fulfilled. But...

Just to throw it out there, there does seem to be a rather amazing prophetic understanding of Ezekiel's words in chapter 4.

“Now, son of man, take a block of clay, put it in front of you and draw the city of Jerusalem on it. Then lay siege to it: Erect siege works against it, build a ramp up to it, set up camps against it and put battering rams around it. Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the people of Israel. “Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the people of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the people of Israel. “After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the people of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year. Turn your face toward the siege of Jerusalem and with bared arm prophesy against her. I will tie you up with ropes so that you cannot turn from one side to the other until you have finished the days of your siege.

If one applies the the same kind of understanding of days being equal to years as is applied in Daniel's prophecy, the siege of God against Israel comes down to pretty much exactly the day and year that Israel was restored in 1948. Like I say, it's just amazing that such an understanding could be true and certainly would put to rest any arguments as found in this thread that Israel doesn't deserve the land that they possess.

The key to understanding this prophecy as it applies to the restoration of Israel is to take this punishment of God explained to Ezekiel and also apply God's word in the duration of their punishment found in Leviticus 26. In Leviticus we find that God promises to punish Israel for disobedience. However, He tells them that when He punishes them, if they still do not heed His correction, He will multiply their affliction seven times.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hi all again,

Of course, there is another amazing fact concerning Israel's restoration that should, at the very least, give pause to those who claim that Israel doesn't still deserve the land that they possess. That is just the simple fact that never, ever before in all of human history do we have evidence of a nation being wiped off the face of the earth and then being restored pretty much exactly the way it was before. With the same language, name and group of people. That alone, when we consider that God has always held Israel as special unto Himself, should cause one to say, 'hmmmm, is it possible that this is still the hand of God working through His people, Isreal?'

God bless
In Christ, Ted

Douggg said:

I don't know where you are getting that. But look at their names.

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Cohen's, for example, are probably Levites (Cohen is the Hebrew word for priest).

Luke 2:36
36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher.

Asher was one of the ten tribes, yet Anna lived in Israel in the last century BC (long after the ten tribes were expelled by the Assyrians).

Israel does not matter. Israel has been cast out.

Matthew 8:11-12
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Romans 11:1-5
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:17-25
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you [Gentile believers in Jesus], being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Yes, Jews can be saved through faith in Jesus Christ. That is what Romans 11 is saying.

GracetotheHumble said:

Israel does not matter. Israel has been cast out.

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Israel has not been cast out of the Kingdom of God. That particular generation of Israel (children of Israel), the Kingdom of God was theirs to be had, but because their rejection of Jesus it was taken from them, to be given to another nation (generation of Israel).

Douggg said:

I don't know where you are getting that. But look at their names.

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The Jews do admit that they descend, in the main, from Judah, Benjamin and part of Levi.
You know scripture; are the Jewish people 'as many as the sand of the sea'? Have they fulfilled the prophesies of Moses and Jacob to the 10 other tribes?
But most telling, is how the present inhabitants of all the holy Land are in no way true, righteous godfearing people. There has to be some kind of dramatic change to allow the Lord's people to occupy their heritage. Psalms 37:29, Romans 8:18

Douggg said:

Israel has not been cast out of the Kingdom of God.

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Yes they have. Jesus made that clear in the verse I quoted. The kingdom has been given to the church.

GracetotheHumble said:

Yes, Jews can be saved through faith in Jesus Christ. That is what Romans 11 is saying.

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Everyone can be saved thru faith in Jesus. There were an estimated 15,000 Messianic Jews in 2010, may be more now, they will be the remnant saved when the Lord clears and cleanses the Middle East. Isaiah 4:3-4

GracetotheHumble said:

Yes they have. Jesus made that clear in the verse I quoted. The kingdom has been given to the church.

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Please be accurate as to who you mean.
The current citizens of the State of Israel are Israelis.
The true righteous people of God are deemed to be Israelites, tribe, race, language, church affiliation, etc is of no consequence, those who believe in God and Jesus, are His people and heirs to the promises of God. Ephesians 2:11-18

keras said:

Please be accurate as to who you mean.

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I think I made it pretty clear that the Jews have been cast out and the kingdom given to the church.

GracetotheHumble said:

Yes they have. Jesus made that clear in the verse I quoted. The kingdom has been given to the church.

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The Kingdom of God is promised to the church, yes.... separate from those verses. Even so, the Kingdom of God has not arrived as the dominant Kingdom here on earth yet, because that does not happen until the ten kings are in place. Essentially, however, we are right at that timeframe.

It is during the time of the ten kings that the Jews (Israel, the nation over there) will embrace Jesus as King, welcoming him saying blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. The current nation of Israel is the another nation that Jesus said the Kingdom of God is given to them.

The big problem with your view is the reality that it counters what has been fulfilled already. Israel back as one united nation. Jerusalem in the hands of the Jews. The other nations (the other trees) in place, dispositioned to fulfill Gog/Magog invasion against Israel. All in the time of the end characteristics of Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Many years ago, before it looked as no chance that Israel could be a nation again, your argument could have more merit (still wrong), but in light of what can be seen 20/20, there is no reason to cling to it.

Douggg said:

The big problem with your view is the reality that it counters what has been fulfilled already. Israel back as one united nation.

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There are many nations. The fact that Israel is a nation means nothing.

Douggg said:

It is during the time of the ten kings that the Jews (Israel, the nation over there) will embrace Jesus as King, welcoming him saying blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

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You have a very vivid imagination.

We can't hardly get two Lutherans to agree on Theology let alone an entire secular nation.

GracetotheHumble said:

You have a very vivid imagination.

We can't hardly get two Lutherans to agree on Theology let alone an entire secular nation.

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I agree with what you say internal to denominations. But I think all Lutherans believe that Jesus is the messiah.... wouldn't you agree with that?

And at the time Israel does embrace Jesus, it will be at a time of extreme duress. The shocking reality of what their thought to be messiah (the Antichrist) doing exactly what Christians have been warning about for years, and when during the 7 years of going into the temple and claiming to be God; and the testimony of the two witnesses over the course of 1260 day preceding, will be so overwhelming that they will make the change in heart.

GracetotheHumble said:

There are many nations. The fact that Israel is a nation means nothing.

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I don't understand your entrenchment, when you have 20/20 hindsight available to you. Does the nation of Israel being
in God's plan some how threaten your salvation?

Douggg said:

Because the Jews, the land of Israel, the nation of Isael, and Jerusalem are essential to learn a parable of the fig tree. This generation shall not pass, till all the things Jesus told about in the previous verses be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:
31 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

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Mat 24:32 `And from the fig-tree learn ye the simile: When already its branch may have become tender, and the leaves it may put forth, ye know that summer is nigh,
Mar 13:28 `And from the fig-tree learn ye the simile: when the branch may already become tender, and may put forth the leaves, ye know that nigh is the summer;
Luk_21:29 And he spake a simile to them: `See the fig-tree, and all the trees,

If this is a prophecy as well as a simile, and the fig-tree is Israel, what/who are ALL the other trees?