How should we read Paul?

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Righttruth

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"Preach, saying, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support." Matthew 10:8-10

It was assigned to His chosen apostles.

How many are following these guidelines now? The support expected is charity by godly people, not regular salary.

"The Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel
to get their living from the gospel." 1 Corinthians 9:14

That is how business enterprise of Christian religion started with Paul's own goading!

"The Scripture says, YOU SHALL NOT
MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING*, and The laborer is worthy of his wages**.” 1 Timothy 5:18 (Deuteronomy 25:4*/Luke 10:7**)

Let us not stoop to the lower level of the OT standard undoing the work of Jesus. Luke also indicates the acceptance of charity in terms of food.

You believe that pastors, as a group, should disobey the first commandment God gave us as a people? Please show us where the Bible tells us that.

"God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth" Genesis 1:28

That is not valid for the leader of a church. Marriage is condoned for the weak. Jesus and all His chosen apostle did not recommend marriage for the follower of Christ. Paul also did not recommend marriage.

So the three years the Lord spent teaching the Apostles was a waste of time in your eyes :scratch: It's also interesting that you recently took the opposite stance concerning these, "knowledge factories", when it suited your purposes to do so, claiming that the one valid credential your book's author had for writing the book he did was the fact the he was a seminary student.

A seminary student went in the usual way only to find the delusion that has set in such seminaries. Doctorates', Masters' and Bachelors' are churned based on the further interpretation conveniently on the speculations of Paul.

If this is what most are doing as teachers in our churches today, then you should have no problem providing us with a boatload of evidence showing that these claims of yours are true. So please, provide away!
Yours and His,
David

It has been provided by the seminary student, who might have quit later. You may want to discuss his points one by one.
 
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Righttruth

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Sorry. I wanted to know why the OP refers to Paul as an outsider when he previously said he was chosen by Jesus. Maybe I worded it wrongly.

He is an outsider in the sense that he doesn't belong the group of chosen apostles and disciples and followers during the ministry of Jesus on earth.
 
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All those folks who heard him marveled at His teachings. I don't think Paul was prepared to identify with such groups. Whether he had heard it or not, let us not side track the issue of his speculations.

The Pharisees didn't.
If you think it is just speculation as to whether Paul heard Jesus' words, then you can't prove that he didn't. So it was wrong to say that there was no way that Paul heard Jesus teach.
That's all I'm saying. You are adamant that one thing that makes Paul "an outsider" or false is that he didn't hear Jesus' words for himself. I'm asking, can you prove that? If you can't, it remains a possibility, casting doubt on your emphatic statement.
 
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John finally exposed the extra assumption of people who claimed themselves as apostles, including the claim of Paul.
That's your interpretation.
I'm asking; when Paul was converted, went round on his journeys and said, and wrote, that he was an apostle, why didn't the 12 in Jerusalem send others to contradict or discredit him? Why didn't they tear up his letters, which would make sure that no one else ever read them? They didn't do this, in fact the church passed them around amongst themselves and must have preserved them somehow, or Nero would have burned them all. Why didn't John name Paul as a false prophet? He named Jezebel and condemned all who followed the teachings of the Nicolatians - why not Paul? Peter condemned Simon the sorcerer for his actions, and Paul himself named people who had turned away and left the faith, but no one ever named Paul, told people to have nothing to do with him or tore up his writings.

The chosen apostles were humble and semi-literate and did not have the arrogant attitude and persecuting trait of Paul to do that. It was not that simple in those days to follow what was happening elsewhere. NT was not the work of the chosen apostles. It was evolved later.
But they all knew, and had met, Paul. They specifically chose him and Barnabas to take a letter from them to the Gentile churches. If they had thought he was in any way false, why did they do that?
Earlier, Ananais and Sapphira had claimed that something was true when it wasn't, Acts 5; Peter told them they had lied to the Holy Spirit and both died on the spot. Nothing like that happened to Paul - even though he was, according to you, a false teacher, with his own agenda. And even though he spent many years proclaiming these teachings - some of which you even agree with.

If you saw the early church history, we see people opposing Paul.
I'm talking VERY early church history - like the 12 apostles.

And it started with Mark in the very first journey.
A difference of opinion is not opposition, Paul later referred to Mark as his son, and anyway, the quarrel was with Barnabas, not Mark.

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to remind of His teachings, not to interpret writings of outsiders with their personal visions that oppose the preaching of Jesus.
Paul doesn't oppose Jesus he teaches about him - even you agree with him sometimes.
Why did John point out the problems of the seven churches? They were baptizing for the dead which Paul endorsed.
Well firstly, Revelation was written much later, long after Paul had died. Secondly, of those 7 churches, Paul had visited only Ephesus, and maybe Laodocea as well - Philippi, Corinth, Thessalonica etc which Paul had founded aren't mentioned at all. Thirdly, Paul didn't endorse baptising for the dead he just said that it happened - see 1 Corinthians 15:29. He is talking about resurrection and basically says, "if the dead aren't raised, why do some people baptise them? What is the point if there is no resurrection?" Paul doesn't teach this practice or even say he agrees with it.
And fourthly, John could have mentioned Paul by name and listed all his teachings that were supposedly false - yet he didn't.
Sorry, that argument doesn't hold water at all.

Don't expect Satan to remain a spectator with all the things happening in all kinds of churches with their in fighting and blind enforcement. People have been burnt on stakes. Paul was troubled by Satan.
Jesus was troubled by Satan too - that doesn't mean he was false.
If Paul was teaching against the words of Jesus, Satan would have left him alone - that's what Satan wants; people to turn against Jesus. Jesus himself said that Satan cannot oppose Satan. If Paul had gone around saying "Jesus said this but I say this" and people had followed him; Satan would have been delighted. He would have rewarded Paul, not persecuted, troubled and tempted him. Paul himself would be now be in hell for misleading people - yet you say that he was chosen by the Son of God and sometimes agree with his words.
 
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Yes, he chose him as an instrument not as an apostle since He had already recognized the twelve for His ministry to begin with.
The second part of your sentence has already been discussed at some length; the most important word you have written is the first one - yes. Paul was chosen by the Son of God.

As someone else has pointed out, Jesus did not call anyone an apostle. The 12 were disciples - the word means learners - then they became apostles, because they were SENT by Jesus. Paul was also SENT, hence an apostle.
But even so, the most important thing is that this man you are condemning as arrogant, false, a man with his own agenda and self appointed, was appointed by the Son of God.
 
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He is an outsider in the sense that he doesn't belong the group of chosen apostles and disciples and followers during the ministry of Jesus on earth.

Ok.
But the 12 were simply Jesus closest 12 disciples. There were many others, and Jesus didn't call ANY of them apostles.
 
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Righttruth

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The Pharisees didn't.
If you think it is just speculation as to whether Paul heard Jesus' words, then you can't prove that he didn't. So it was wrong to say that there was no way that Paul heard Jesus teach.
That's all I'm saying. You are adamant that one thing that makes Paul "an outsider" or false is that he didn't hear Jesus' words for himself. I'm asking, can you prove that? If you can't, it remains a possibility, casting doubt on your emphatic statement.

In what way that helps in determining his self-claims? Whether he heard it or not, what he claimed is against the preaching of Jesus on many counts.
 
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Righttruth

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That's your interpretation.
I'm asking; when Paul was converted, went round on his journeys and said, and wrote, that he was an apostle, why didn't the 12 in Jerusalem send others to contradict or discredit him? Why didn't they tear up his letters, which would make sure that no one else ever read them? They didn't do this, in fact the church passed them around amongst themselves and must have preserved them somehow, or Nero would have burned them all. Why didn't John name Paul as a false prophet? He named Jezebel and condemned all who followed the teachings of the Nicolatians - why not Paul? Peter condemned Simon the sorcerer for his actions, and Paul himself named people who had turned away and left the faith, but no one ever named Paul, told people to have nothing to do with him or tore up his writings.

Let us not go by what people and chosen apostles thought about Paul. Are you going to discredit the words of the Word? Jesus clearly said that Paul was a chosen vessel. What more evidence you need? That is the typical trend all the time. People did not listen to the prophets. Finally God sent His own Son. People have done the same thing. They just don't bother about His words. Paul matters for many. I don't have to speak out on the consequences.

But they all knew, and had met, Paul. They specifically chose him and Barnabas to take a letter from them to the Gentile churches. If they had thought he was in any way false, why did they do that?
Earlier, Ananais and Sapphira had claimed that something was true when it wasn't, Acts 5; Peter told them they had lied to the Holy Spirit and both died on the spot. Nothing like that happened to Paul - even though he was, according to you, a false teacher, with his own agenda. And even though he spent many years proclaiming these teachings - some of which you even agree with.

I have made my position clear. I agree all that complement the words of Jesus. Satan has not been vanquished. We can never underestimate him. He is a great deceiver. People are easily deceived, and they love ear tickling theories. Even Paul has been sidelined when people don't agree with concepts that are in tune with Jesus.

I'm talking VERY early church history - like the 12 apostles.

Paul coolly separated from the Jerusalem church to a great extent claiming himself as an apostle for the uncircumcised to please the ignorant Gentiles with his compromise formulas.

A difference of opinion is not opposition, Paul later referred to Mark as his son, and anyway, the quarrel was with Barnabas, not Mark.

The quarrel was due to Mark; it doesn't matter with whom.

Paul doesn't oppose Jesus he teaches about him - even you agree with him sometimes.

Since he was not involved in the ministry of Jesus, he couldn't have possibly understood the essence of the teaching of Jesus.

Well firstly, Revelation was written much later, long after Paul had died. Secondly, of those 7 churches, Paul had visited only Ephesus, and maybe Laodocea as well - Philippi, Corinth, Thessalonica etc which Paul had founded aren't mentioned at all.

Church at Ephesus was founded by Paul. It is here John mentions of additional apostles as liars. John also mentions of foundations for twelve apostles. Are you going to erect an additional virtual foundation for Paul? Or is he going to sit on the lap of Peter because he was one who had soft corner for Paul.

Revelation 21
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.


Thirdly, Paul didn't endorse baptising for the dead he just said that it happened - see 1 Corinthians 15:29. He is talking about resurrection and basically says, "if the dead aren't raised, why do some people baptise them? What is the point if there is no resurrection?" Paul doesn't teach this practice or even say he agrees with it.

Let us consider the verse:
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Your interpretation is far off from the statement Paul has made to endorse such a practice. You are simply bringing in the resurrection issue to cover up his endorsement.

And fourthly, John could have mentioned Paul by name and listed all his teachings that were supposedly false - yet he didn't.
Sorry, that argument doesn't hold water at all.

All his teachings cannot be categorized as falsehood. Deceptions are not directly discerned.

Jesus was troubled by Satan too - that doesn't mean he was false.

But he left when accosted. Not in case of Paul.

If Paul was teaching against the words of Jesus, Satan would have left him alone - that's what Satan wants; people to turn against Jesus. Jesus himself said that Satan cannot oppose Satan. If Paul had gone around saying "Jesus said this but I say this" and people had followed him; Satan would have been delighted. He would have rewarded Paul, not persecuted, troubled and tempted him. Paul himself would be now be in hell for misleading people - yet you say that he was chosen by the Son of God and sometimes agree with his words.

You cannot guess at the tricks of the trade of Satan. A small deviation at the beginning is sufficient to miss the target by thousands of miles by the rocket fired at the Moon if course correction is not made.
 
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Righttruth

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The second part of your sentence has already been discussed at some length; the most important word you have written is the first one - yes. Paul was chosen by the Son of God.

As someone else has pointed out, Jesus did not call anyone an apostle. The 12 were disciples - the word means learners - then they became apostles, because they were SENT by Jesus. Paul was also SENT, hence an apostle.
But even so, the most important thing is that this man you are condemning as arrogant, false, a man with his own agenda and self appointed, was appointed by the Son of God.

Many are called but a few are chosen. Even the chosen one can go astray. The trend now is to force an interpretation to benefit Paul at any cost. Paul himself claims to be a boaster. How God deals with such persons is well known. Boasting is arrogance, humbleness is virtue highly valued.
 
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Righttruth

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Ok.
But the 12 were simply Jesus closest 12 disciples. There were many others, and Jesus didn't call ANY of them apostles.

You want to close your eyes for the following:

Matthew 10
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

Mark 6
30 And the apostles gathered themselves together unto Jesus, and told him all things, both what they had done, and what they had taught.

Luke 6
13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;


Luke 9
10 And the apostles, when they were returned, told him all that they had done. And he took them, and went aside privately into a desert place belonging to the city called Bethsaida.

Luke 11
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

Luke 17
5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

Luke 22
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

Luke 24
10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.


 
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In what way that helps in determining his self-claims? Whether he heard it or not, what he claimed is against the preaching of Jesus on many counts.

You're missing the point.
You have been adamant that Paul never heard the words of Jesus. You have condemned him for this and called him an outsider because of it. You wrote a post saying, "who heard the words of Jesus? Paul? No way."

I am asking you, quite simply, how you KNOW that Paul was not around when Jesus was teaching? I speculated that he could have been one of the Pharisees whom Jesus criticised. That might just be a speculation. But if you can't prove that Paul was not around at the time of Jesus' ministry, you cannot say that Paul never heard his words and is therefore an outsider. This is the point am making. You should say - "as far as we know, Paul never heard Christ's words for himself", or "it seems very unlikely that Paul heard Jesus teach". That would be better; though it would be interesting how you found that out - besides that book you keep quoting from. I have showed you that Paul agreed with Jesus, and you state that he sometimes agreed with him as well.
 
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Let us not go by what people and chosen apostles thought about Paul. Are you going to discredit the words of the Word?

Seriously?? Your previous posts have said that only the OT is inspired, that "listening is more spiritual than recording" and that the canon was man made, and now you accuse me of discrediting the word? :eek:
Paul called Jesus a chosen vessel; I know, I have always agreed with that. YOU are the one who is saying that we are not told this chosen vessel was called an apostle - so because of that, he wasn't, was false and made self claims. The word - whose integrity you are so keen to uphold - says he was an apostle. You say he wasn't, so you are saying that the word is incorrect.
 
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I have made my position clear. I agree all that complement the words of Jesus.

I know you have. I am saying that I find it to be a contradictory position. You say that sometimes you agree with Paul, who was the Lord's chosen vessel - yet at the same time you say that he was false, conceited and had another agenda. Going by that logic, Jesus chose someone who mostly spoke against his words and was only right sometimes, was arrogant and promoted himself and his own agenda. Doesn't sound likely to me.

The quarrel was due to Mark; it doesn't matter with whom.

You said that the early church opposed Paul and that it began with Mark. That is clearly wrong; Mark did not oppose Paul.

Let us consider the verse:
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Your interpretation is far off from the statement Paul has made to endorse such a practice. You are simply bringing in the resurrection issue to cover up his endorsement.
Bringing in the resurrection?? The entire chapter is about the resurrection!Have you not read it, or do you just not understand the concept of reading in context?
You can't just pluck a verse out of one book, out of context, say "Paul had an argument; this proves that people were opposed to him" and then build an entire doctrine - that Paul was outside the group of apostles and therefore is unreliable - because of it.
 
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Righttruth

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You're missing the point.
You have been adamant that Paul never heard the words of Jesus. You have condemned him for this and called him an outsider because of it. You wrote a post saying, "who heard the words of Jesus? Paul? No way."

I am asking you, quite simply, how you KNOW that Paul was not around when Jesus was teaching? I speculated that he could have been one of the Pharisees whom Jesus criticised. That might just be a speculation. But if you can't prove that Paul was not around at the time of Jesus' ministry, you cannot say that Paul never heard his words and is therefore an outsider. This is the point am making. You should say - "as far as we know, Paul never heard Christ's words for himself", or "it seems very unlikely that Paul heard Jesus teach". That would be better; though it would be interesting how you found that out - besides that book you keep quoting from. I have showed you that Paul agreed with Jesus, and you state that he sometimes agreed with him as well.

The very fact Paul never quoted any words of Jesus as indicated by the authors of the Gospel books clearly gives proof that Paul never heard much of what Jesus taught. He might have heard through Peter. That doesn't qualify him to be called an apostle. That self-claim itself is a strong case against him and his religion. He always started his epistles with this dubious claim, and he wanted that badly to push his agenda.
 
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Righttruth

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Seriously?? Your previous posts have said that only the OT is inspired, that "listening is more spiritual than recording" and that the canon was man made, and now you accuse me of discrediting the word? :eek:
Paul called Jesus a chosen vessel; I know, I have always agreed with that. YOU are the one who is saying that we are not told this chosen vessel was called an apostle - so because of that, he wasn't, was false and made self claims. The word - whose integrity you are so keen to uphold - says he was an apostle. You say he wasn't, so you are saying that the word is incorrect.

You are trying to equate words of Paul with his wisdom and pushing agenda with the words of the Word. Where do you go from here? Who decided on the canon? That concept came much later. But traditions ruled the roost for centuries before Martin Luther came along with his own notions, some good and some bad.
 
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I know you have. I am saying that I find it to be a contradictory position. You say that sometimes you agree with Paul, who was the Lord's chosen vessel - yet at the same time you say that he was false, conceited and had another agenda. Going by that logic, Jesus chose someone who mostly spoke against his words and was only right sometimes, was arrogant and promoted himself and his own agenda. Doesn't sound likely to me.

Dilution and deviations are bound to happen in all religions when the founder departs. Christianity is not an exception. Any person who ignores the call of the Master and self-proclaims cannot be accepted in to to. There were deviations in beliefs with the Church Fathers. It was noticed in Jerusalem church too.

You said that the early church opposed Paul and that it began with Mark. That is clearly wrong; Mark did not oppose Paul.

Then why did he desert the company in the first journey?

Bringing in
the resurrection?? The entire chapter is about the resurrection!Have you not read it, or do you just not understand the concept of reading in context?

It is there. But Paul endorsing the baptism for the dead on the same lines. He did not firmly oppose it.

You can't just pluck a verse out of one book, out of context, say "Paul had an argument; this proves that people were opposed to him" and then build an entire doctrine - that Paul was outside the group of apostles and therefore is unreliable - because of it.

That is because he has developed or helped develop doctrines opposing Jesus.
 
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The very fact Paul never quoted any words of Jesus as indicated by the authors of the Gospel books clearly gives proof that Paul never heard much of what Jesus taught.

It doesn't and you haven't proved your point.

But never mind. If you want to avoid Paul's teaching, that's your call. You are missing a lot.
But it's your call, your Christian life and you answer to God for it.
 
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Dilution and deviations are bound to happen in all religions when the founder departs. Christianity is not an exception. Any person who ignores the call of the Master and self-proclaims cannot be accepted in to to.

That doesn't make sense.
Paul was called by Jesus. He was his chosen vessel, even you admit that.

Then why did he desert the company in the first journey?

He didn't.
Barnabas wanted to take Mark with them on their journey; Paul didn't. Paul and Barnabas argued. The result was 2 journeys -Barnabas and Mark went one way, Paul and Silas went another.
That is not at all the same as John-Mark saying, "I'm deserting Paul, he is false." The disagreement was nothing to do with doctrine and who was right, nor was it about Mark leaving a " false" teacher.
 
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It doesn't and you haven't proved your point.

But never mind. If you want to avoid Paul's teaching, that's your call. You are missing a lot.
But it's your call, your Christian life and you answer to God for it.

Yes, I am missing a lot for the sake of my salvation: such dubious doctrines that lead to destruction, such as, 'faith alone', 'once-saved-always saved', 'speak gibberish and behave like an animal once in a week', 'lady pastors', 'homosexual relationship', 'meaningless ritual to proclaim the death of our risen Lord', 'false claims of apostleship', 'teacher's status', father's status', 'false and imaginary claims', 'private interpretations of old prophecies', 'business and livelihood to share the convenient verses of Paul' and the list goes on.......
 
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That doesn't make sense.
Paul was called by Jesus. He was his chosen vessel, even you admit that.

A person who discards the status given to him by the Lord and assumes on his own to push his agenda with ignorant Gentiles got to be watched of every word. Otherwise, we have people who can believe in anything. Apostle Thomas was better in his approach.

He didn't.
Barnabas wanted to take Mark with them on their journey; Paul didn't. Paul and Barnabas argued. The result was 2 journeys -Barnabas and Mark went one way, Paul and Silas went another.
That is not at all the same as John-Mark saying, "I'm deserting Paul, he is false." The disagreement was nothing to do with doctrine and who was right, nor was it about Mark leaving a " false" teacher.

For the people who believe in the way of Jesus humbly, dominance and monopolizing are a big no. No wonder Mark sensed that in the very first journey that made him to withdraw from the work in the middle. Certainly, Paul would not have liked that that is why he strongly opposed giving Mark another chance to be part of the journey, unbecoming of a Christian.
 
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