Open Challenge - Explain why Israel is important from the NT

Hazrus said:

Hi all,

This was discussed in another thread, however it makes much more sense to raise it as its own separate thread.My understanding at the moment is that since Jesus has fulfilled the old covenant through his blood on the Cross and ushered in a new covenant, the physical land, temple, and being "Jewish" are no longer important. I know many Bible verses which appear to state this to be the case and at the moment it seems right to me. I would hate for Jesus to brand me a "false teacher" though - hence my challenge below.

My challenge to you is this: what evidence can you provide from the NT stating that the physical land of Israel, the temple, and the "Jewish race" is important today, and since the Resurrection?

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Hazrus, did you have any problem starting this thread without a tag?

Hazrus said:

Hi all,

This was discussed in another thread, however it makes much more sense to raise it as its own separate thread.My understanding at the moment is that since Jesus has fulfilled the old covenant through his blood on the Cross and ushered in a new covenant, the physical land, temple, and being "Jewish" are no longer important. I know many Bible verses which appear to state this to be the case and at the moment it seems right to me. I would hate for Jesus to brand me a "false teacher" though - hence my challenge below.

My challenge to you is this: what evidence can you provide from the NT stating that the physical land of Israel, the temple, and the "Jewish race" is important today, and since the Resurrection?

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Because the Jews, the land of Israel, the nation of Isael, and Jerusalem are essential to learn a parable of the fig tree. This generation shall not pass, till all the things Jesus told about in the previous verses be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:
31 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Hi hazrus,

You wrote:

Hazrus said:

My challenge is that we should take the whole of Scripture and use this to infer meaning.

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That can be a very dangerous endeavor. What if what you believe the Scriptures to be inferring is not correct? You see, that's the exact same thing that the Jews did. They took the simple law of the Sabbath and gleaned all kinds of inferences that surely such a law must mean. Catholics do that a lot also. They have a whole religion based on what they believe the Scriptures to infer. Be careful!

Me, I find the Scriptures fairly simple in what they tell us. I don't believe God asks us to do a lot of inferring except in the parables that Jesus spoke. They did have hidden meanings and Jesus told the disciples so. So that they may be ever hearing and ever seeing, but never perceiving.

For me it's really pretty simple. God made a covenant with Abraham and his descendants. That covenant still stands. Faith in Jesus is the only way to find God's salvation. That promise still stands also. I'm not one who believes that suddenly everything that has always been written in the old covenant now becomes some new and improved spiritual truth. The old covenant is merely the historical account of all that God did through Israel in His work to bring the way of salvation to a lost and dying world. Believers today live according to the new covenant, but that doesn't have any bearing or change on the factual reality of all that is accounted in the old covenant. As Jesus said, he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

The entire Scriptures describe a plan which God has been actively working on since the days of Abraham. Nothing changes, but the plan continues to progress until God receives the goal for which He seeks. God's plan will not be thwarted and He will not be put off. His perfect plan will succeed.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hazrus said:

Keras,
I have looked at your NT references in your two posts and don't see them backing up anything except that the Church is now God's people...

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Who are God's people, is every individual who believes in God and has accepted the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. They are the true Ekkelasia, not the established Church as such.

That all those true righteous people, from every tribe, nation, race and language will be gathered and taken by various means into all of the holy Land, is reiterated mainly in the OT, but the NT scriptures also confirm this.
This was always God's plan for His people. He doesn't change and the great day will come, when He will bless His people as they live in peace and prosperity in the holy Land. Isaiah 30:19-24, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Jeremiah 31:1-6, Zechariah 8:1-8

Hazrus said:

Dougg,

The fig tree parable I believe was fulfilled by the Temple destruction...

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Why would you believe that?

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Hazrus said:

Biblewriter,

I wholeheartedly agree that the OT is supremely important. I apologise profusely if that was not clear. I love reading the OT and have recently had some great discussions with my wife about Daniel, and just lead our bible study on a really fulfilling term of study in Joshua. It is truly amazing what the Lord did for Israel in giving them the Promised Land and I got so much out of preparing the bible studies and leading them.

My challenge is that we should take the whole of Scripture and use this to infer meaning. Regarding "The Land" and "the Jews", what evidence do we have from the NT that they are still important to God?

My position is that it has all changed since Jesus ushered in the New Covenant, however I have an open mind and would love to be proven wrong.

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Although it is said on regard to a different subject, the principle that applies here is found in the following scripture:

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. Galatians 3:17

The principle being applied here is that a promise of God, once made, is inviolate. Once God has made a promise, things that come later cannot cancel it. God made explicitly stated promises, not only to Abraham, but later on, to various of his descendants.

If God could legitimately tell the descendants of the ancient nation of Israel that, even though He said Israel, He was actually talking about a different group of people, He could just as legitimately tell us that the promises He made to the church were not actually about us, but about a different group of people that will come in the future.

That is, this doctrine is seriously false because it strikes at the very heart of faith. For If the promises of God are not absolutely reliable, then we have no basis for our faith. And everything is lost.

But in addition to this, the New Testament does indeed contain numerous passages which make it exceedingly clear that both the land and the people of Israel still figure largely in the Divine program. I will soon be posting the proof of this, D.V.

Acts 1:6-8
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

This would have been a good time for Jesus to explain that they misunderstood what the Scriptures mean when they say that Messiah will reign over the land. But He didn't! He is going to reign, but the Lord's disciples should be about their work (making disciples of all nations) until that time.

Hazrus said:

Mr. Matthew 24, care to expand, especially in the context of the remainder of Romans?

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Would you have preferred he copied and pasted Romans 11? Did you read it?

What concerns you with the rest of Romans? He gave you a chapter all about Israel and you ask about other chapters? You have a Bible, too.

I find the entire premise of this thread to be wrong because it appears to assume that the Old Testament teachings are somehow irrelevant if the New Testament doesn't address everything again. (But Israel's future is thoroughly discussed in Romans 11. Some of their descendants are also sealed in Revelation 7:1-8 and referenced again in Revelation 12, Revelation 14, and other chapters.)

Matthew 24:35 (NKJV)
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Matthew 4:4 (NKJV)
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” (Deuteronomy 8:3)

2 Timothy 3:16–17 (NKJV)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All Scripture includes the Old Testament, which is all the Scripture there was at the point that Jesus ascended into heaven, and for the first several years of the early Church.

Jesus Himself is the called the Word.

John 1:1–5, 14 (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word created by His word ("Then God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light...").

Hebrews 4:12 (NKJV)
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The entire word of God is living and powerful, able to judge our hearts, like a double-edged sword.

Revelation 19:11–16 (NKJV)
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

Notice the sharp sword that proceeds out of the Word of God's (Jesus') mouth. Look what He does with it:

Revelation 19:19–21 (NKJV)
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Jesus, the Word of God, the Creator of everything with His words, will destroy His enemies with His words. How fitting!

Look at how Jesus identifies Himself to the Laodiceans:

Revelation 3:14 (NKJV)
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

The Lord Jesus Christ is Faithful and True. His witness (the Bible) is faithful and true, from the beginning of creation. He is also the Creator.

Revelation 4:11 (NKJV)
11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”

Hi hazrus,

You responded:

Hazrus said:

I believe it says that the Law and the Israelites being the chosen ones were a shadow of the things to come, namely Christ fulfilling the Law and making all of God's promises to be a "yes".

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Well, as explained, I don't believe that's the 'hidden' or 'spiritual' truth behind God's call and promise to Abraham. Now, that's not to say that there aren't some things the old covenant speaks of that are not shadows of a future truth. However, I think it important to note that there is no change between the days of the law accounted in the old covenant and the salvation we may now enjoy through the death of our Lord.

The law was never about salvation. Go ahead read through the entire old covenant and you won't find anywhere that God gives any promise of eternal life for keeping the law. What you will find in the books of the law is that God's promise to Israel was that if they would keep His commands and His law, then He would provide for and protect them in this life. So, there is no change from the old covenant to the new other than the new covenant holds out a promise of eternal life. Here's God's promise to Israel for keeping the law:

‘If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit. Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land. ‘I will grant peace in the land, and you will lie down and no one will make you afraid. I will remove wild beasts from the land, and the sword will not pass through your country. You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you. I will look on you with favor and make you fruitful and increase your numbers, and I will keep my covenant with you. You will still be eating last year’s harvest when you will have to move it out to make room for the new. I will put my dwelling place among you, and I will not abhor you. I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt so that you would no longer be slaves to the Egyptians; I broke the bars of your yoke and enabled you to walk with heads held high.

Nothing about eternal life. Of course, the new covenant does cover this issue also. It clearly tells us in plain and simple words that no one is saved by keeping the law. It is not the truth, as I understand the Scriptures, that suddenly now that Jesus has come and died that tons of stuff in the old covenant now become spiritual.

So, nothing has changed except that God has released Israel from its work of bringing to the world the knowledge of God and the way of His salvation. But, God still loves Israel. As someone else has pointed out, Zion is where Jesus will return. Israel still has a place in the as yet unrealized prophecies of the last days. God's promises still stand and until someone can show me that God has rescinded His promise, I'm thoroughly convinced that it still stands.

Many people get into this discussion because they want to figure out a way for peace in the middle east. The middle east is always in turmoil over this very promise of God. Israel holds a holy promise to the land and intends to work to keep it. The nations surrounding Israel are likewise just as serious in getting that land away from them. So, we naturally believe that if we could just prove that Israel no longer has any right to the land, then we could put them out and gain peace in the middle east. It isn't going to happen.

Anyway, I've always allowed that we all believe what we have convinced ourselves is the truth. The question, of course, that we all have to answer is: Is what I believe the truth?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hazrus said:

Mr. Matthew 24, care to expand, especially in the context of the remainder of Romans?

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In Romans 11, Paul revealed to the gentile church that God's work with the Jewish people hasn't been completed yet (Romans 11:23) but has shifted His blessings (Romans 11:7-8) to the non-Jews to provoke His people to turn to the gospel (Romans 11:11-14) the last two thousand years. At the appointed time in the near future (Daniel's 70th week, Romans 11:26-27), God will turn His attention back to the Jews to fulfill His promise to Jacob and save his people (Romans 11:28-29).


Romans 11:26-27 NKJV
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer (Jesus) will come out of Zion (Israel),
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Jews);

27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

miamited said:

Israel holds a holy promise to the land and intends to work to keep it.

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Are the Jewish people all Israel?
They have, in fact, usurped the title of Israel, the new State was to have been correctly named Judah, but ben Gurion changed it at the last minute. As the Bible says the true House of Israel remain 'scattered among the nations' and are as 'countless and the sands of the sea'. Ezekiel 36:19, Hosea 1:10
Many prophesies say the Jews will be judged and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:13, Amos 2:4-5 Also all the nations surrounding Israel face destruction. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1:1-15

THEN, the Lord's righteous people will go to live there. Ezekiel 20:34-38 Including the Messianic Jews.
Galatians 3:26-29 makes it quite clear who are the Lord's people and descent from Jacob doesn't come into it. However, in order for God's promises to the Patriarchs to be fulfilled, the majority of the Lord's people WILL have some Israelite blood. Which after 850+ generations, is about everyone!

keras said:

Are the Jewish people all Israel?
They have, in fact, usurped the title of Israel, the new State was to have been correctly named Judah, but ben Gurion changed it at the last minute. As the Bible says the true House of Israel remain 'scattered among the nations' and are as 'countless and the sands of the sea'. Ezekiel 36:19, Hosea 1:10

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A mistake was made? No, ben Gurion was about to make a mistake. The name of the state was correctly named Israel. The land mass of the country over there contains the lands of both the northern 10 tribes and the southern 2 tribes.

All of the Children of Israel have not returned to Israel, but that does not happen until at Jesus's return. The Children of Israel go by the term Jews - but they could be of any tribe. Individual Jews do not know what tribe of the twelve tribes they belong to.

THEN, the Lord's righteous people will go to live there. Ezekiel 20:34-38 Including the Messianic Jews.
Galatians 3:26-29 makes it quite clear who are the Lord's people and descent from Jacob doesn't come into it. However, in order for God's promises to the Patriarchs to be fulfilled, the majority of the Lord's people WILL have some Israelite blood. Which after 850+ generations, is about everyone!

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But not everyone's mother is a Jew, which stems from the days of Nehemiah, and Judah returning to the land of Judah after the Babylonian captivity. Which eliminates the who is an Isralite question.

Although geographically divided by the territories settled coming out of the exodus, held by the 12 tribes, thus called the northern and southern kingdoms, the population itself of Judah contained persons from every tribe. But because they lived in Judah, they we called Jews.

Back in Nehemiah's day, there was not the confusion as is now. The caretaker remnant had married foreign wives and had children by them. Nehemiah shamed them into sending those wives and children away. What remained and going forward, were only the wives of the twelve tribes (called Jews because they live in Judah before the exile).

Those "Jews" are the twelve tribes. But to be one of them a person's mother has to bear the label of "Jew". So the twelve tribes are not just about everyone in the world, but someone who's mother is a Jew.
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It doesn't even make sense that every person who become a Christian is Israel because the country over there, even in its promised to Abraham boundaries cannot contained the numbers.

And the meek shall inherit the earth. I have no desire to live in Israel. I am not a spiritual Jew. And I am not Israel. And most Christians are not.

Douggg said:

A mistake was made? No, ben Gurion was about to make a mistake. The name of the state was correctly named Israel. The land mass of the country over there contains the lands of both the northern 10 tribes and the southern 2 tribes.

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The fact is, the name of the new State was to have been Judah. Theodore Hertzel idea was either Zion or Judah, and David ben Gurion arbitrarily changed it to Israel. I believe that was Satanically inspired and has been the cause of much confusion about Israel and Judah, both carefully maintained separately by all the prophets. The Jews do admit they are only of Judah.
In no way does the current land area of Israel encompass all the area originally occupied by ancient Israel, let alone the area promised to Abraham.
It is just pedantic rubbish to say we must have a Jewish mother to become an Israelite. The New Covenant of Jesus changed all that, now anyone from any tribe, race, nation or language that believes in God and accepts the atoning sacrifice of Jesus are deemed to be His people, the Israel of God. Galatians 3:26-29 could not be clearer.

keras said:

Are the Jewish people all Israel?
They have, in fact, usurped the title of Israel, the new State was to have been correctly named Judah, but ben Gurion changed it at the last minute. As the Bible says the true House of Israel remain 'scattered among the nations' and are as 'countless and the sands of the sea'. Ezekiel 36:19, Hosea 1:10
Many prophesies say the Jews will be judged and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:13, Amos 2:4-5 Also all the nations surrounding Israel face destruction. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1:1-15

THEN, the Lord's righteous people will go to live there. Ezekiel 20:34-38 Including the Messianic Jews.
Galatians 3:26-29 makes it quite clear who are the Lord's people and descent from Jacob doesn't come into it. However, in order for God's promises to the Patriarchs to be fulfilled, the majority of the Lord's people WILL have some Israelite blood. Which after 850+ generations, is about everyone!

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Hi keras,

Well, we can argue and debate all day over 'who' are the Jews today. Here's what I know. It ain't me, but the promise still stands. God gave an everlasting covenant to Abraham of a certain geographical spot of dirt. To him and his descendants. Now, who those descendants are today? I don't have a clue. It's not my job to keep track.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

keras said:

The Jews do admit they are only of Judah.

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I don't know where you are getting that. But look at their names.