Challenges for pre tribulation rapture

jerry kelso said:

This is talking to Israel according to their covenant promises of Abraham Genesis 12-15

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Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.




Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I am a seed of Abraham, through Christ, and heir to the promise made to Abraham in Genesis chapter 12.


There are two groups of Israelites, Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


The Gentile branches were grafted in among the faithful Israelite branches in Romans 11.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Those who were once aliens to the commonwealth of Israel are now a part of Israel, through Christ.

Eph_2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


We are to "rightly divide" false doctrine from the truth, based on the Word of God, instead of the traditions of men.

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Salvation now only comes through being grafted into the New Blood Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.


Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.


Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.



Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

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BABerean2 said:

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.




Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I am a seed of Abraham, through Christ, and heir to the promise made to Abraham in Genesis chapter 12.


There are two groups of Israelites, Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


The Gentile branches were grafted in among the faithful Israelite branches in Romans 11.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Those who were once aliens to the commonwealth of Israel are now a part of Israel, through Christ.

Eph_2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


We are to "rightly divide" false doctrine from the truth, based on the Word of God, instead of the traditions of men.

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Salvation now only comes through being grafted into the New Blood Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.


Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.


Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.



Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

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baberean2,

1. Jesus had to proclaim the land and the kingdom offer of the covenant of Abraham and David. These are eternal covenants. I have already given scriptures time and time again that you ignore.

2. Jesus also knew that Israel would reject him. Read Isaiah 53 and John 1.
Since the church was ordained before the foundations of the world Jesus came to also save the whole world which John the Baptist proclaimed in his ministry as the forerunner of Christ and the KOH offer Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

3. John 10:16 was talking about the gentiles otherwise he could not save the whole world.

4. Abrahams seed and the promise of the new covenant would come to pass despite the law which came because of transgressions till the seed should come. This would be for the whole world.

5. The gentiles were able to be grafted in because of Israel's rejection as well as the new covenant coming in. If it were not for the new covenant at the cross and his resurrection noone would have been saved permanently.

6. The jewish believers were a part of the election of grace as a remnant in that day. The unbelieving jews were blinded. So the nation did not obtain the election because they were blinded.
Israel was proud of being the bearers of the covenants and it ended up falling and backsliding. Paul warned the gentiles that the same could happen to them if they didn't abide in him. The natural branches will be grafted in their own olive tree.

7. Now I understand your thinking is that the nation of Israel has to be grafted back into the believing jews and the believing gentiles which is the body of Christ today called the church.
They were to be grafted into their own olive tree not the body of Christ of jews and gentiles today.

8. Even if this is not true and you believe they have to be grafted into the body of Christ, the church today it still will not prevent the covenants of Abraham and David to come to pass promised specifically to the jewish nation of Israel apart from the church. Israel is God's chosen people and these covenants are eternal and the gifts and callings are without repentance. These covenants to Israel were conditioned by obedience to God. Only Israel has to be purified and not the church for the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church. Israel has been trodden under the foot of men because their salt had lost its savor and not the church of jews and gentiles in the body of Christ.

9. The promises of the head of the nations in the earthly KOH on earth is promised specifically and Christ will be the ultimate King and Potentate and David will be the King over the nation of Israel and the 12 apostles will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel and Abraham will also be in Israel in the kingdom. All these are in the body of Christ but they are also jews.
Gentile believers in the church and even jewish believers in the church will have rulership positions throughout the KOH on earth.

10. Now can you produce a scripture that shows gentile believers of the church will be at the head of the nations and be King over Israel? This has nothing to do with the argument of gentiles being spiritual Israel or using the argument of no jew or gentile in one body alike.

11. To take away the specific covenant blessings of the nation of Israel concerning the land and the kingdom destroys God's promises to them and his order in all things and replaces the nation of Israel with the church today. It also causes the church to believe they are backslidden and have to be purified and reconciled back to God and it causes the church to live in defeat because of the law mentality which is contained in Jesus teachings and the Mosaic law which was in effect in his day and the message of the KOH and the KOG message only given to the jews in that specific context.

12. Salvation only comes through Jesus Christ and the church is the vehicle that God uses to propagate the gospel of which the nation of Israel is enemies of the church for our sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers sakes.

13. You can't produce a scripture of the question I posed to you and it shows you do not understand the KOH program to the jewish nation and the reason why. Israel was jealous because the gentiles were saved at all as far as the judaizers who didn't believe in the death, burial, and resurrection now will the gentile believers The church will have rulership positions throughout the universe that is separate from Israel's earthly calling. Should they be jealous too? Some believers will have more responsibilities and crowns and more for their works. Should the one that didn't do as much be jealous because they at least made it into heaven? Why don't you just believe the word and that God has order and is not a respect of persons. This is what you do and make God out to be because you think Israel's covenants are through concerning the land and the kingdom of Abraham and David. The churches part of the covenants of Abraham is salvation and David both. There is no promise to the church of specific parts of the land or a specific capitol of the earth concerning the Abrahamic covenant. Our part of the Davidic covenant is salvations without works just like

14. Abraham in Romans 4. and we will have rulership position in the kingdom of which we are being trained for now 2 Timothy 2:12. The church is being trained and Israel must be purged because of being backslidden Daniel 9:227 and Zechariah 13:9. The nations of the world will go to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast etc. So once again you are wrong.

15. Do you have tunnel vision or you just don't really understand what the scripture says in the proper context which I have showed or you just don't want to believe it?
You are free to believe whatever you want but all you can do is show your side and you can't show the other side and why it can't be right. You think if you keep posting your side that that is a proper and specific rebuttal to the point of proving me wrong. If you think that then you don't want to understand the other side and shows why you can't properly rebut it.

16. So here is another chance to prove by scripture that the church will be at the head of the nations and King over Israel, and ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel. Jerry kelso

My comments here are in Bold Blue.

1. Romans 11:26; AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED : as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

NOTICE THE WORD ALL WHICH MEANS THE WHOLE NATION. ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!

HEBREWS SAYS THAT GOD WILL MAKE A COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH IN HEBREWS 8:8 AND IN VERSE 11; AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOUR AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING, KNOW THE LORD: FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST. THIS WILL HAPPEN IN THE TRIBULATION AND WHEN GOD COMES BACK AT ARMAGEDDON AND ISRAEL WILL BECOME THE CAPITOL OF THE WORLD.

2. Romans 9:27; a remnant will be saved in the tribulation. Revelation 12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
What you fail to realize is that all of Israel will accept Christ and he will write his laws into their minds and in their hearts and forgive their sins. This has to happen before the nation can fulfill their covenant of David concerning the kingdom as the head of the nations found in Isaiah 2:1-4.
In number 1. above you say "all" of Israel will be saved, but in 2. you say a "remnant" will be saved, during the tribulation.
The truth is that Romans 11:26 is referring back to Romans 11:23 in which the branches broken off can be grafted back into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ.
This is the manner in which "all Israel" will be saved, by becoming part of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

You have to remember that the Apostle Paul begins chapter 11 with two groups of Israelites. There were those Israelites who bowed to Baal and the remnant of 7,000 Israelites who would not bow to Baal.


The words are, and so shall all Israel be saved. The word so just adds emphasis to the word all. That is the manner which is backed up by the previous phrase (until the fulness of the gentiles be come in. You are the one wanting to alter the word all and that is incorrect and where you go wrong.
The last Gentile comes to faith in Christ on the day of His Second Coming, right before He returns.

The Greek word "houto" is an adverb of manner.
You are attempting to change it to the word "then", which is an adverb of time.
You are changing scripture to make John Darby's doctrine work.

3. First of all, Romans 11:26 is future to the tribulation because Christ will come out the Heavenly Mount Sion. So we are not talking about at Calvary.
All Israel didn't accept Christ in the early church and that is true but it was not time for another chance at the KOH and the KOG message to be fulfilled because only the father knew when that time would be.

The jews rejected Paul's ministry and he went to the gentiles. At the same time he understood the covenants for he was a jew himself. Romans 11:11; I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Jews were grafted in in that day because they were saved though not all and there was a remnant even then. However, the time factor of the full grafting in comes at the end of the tribulation.
This idea stands in direct conflict to the parable of the virgins in Matthew chapter 25.
There will be no second chances at His Second Coming, based on the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 25.

Whether or not the church is not pre-rapture doesn't even make a difference for all Israel will still be saved in that day
Here you are clearly changing the Greek word "houto", into an adverb of time by saying "in that day".

and Romans 11:26 focus is not the manner of merely being grafted in but ALL of Israel will be saved.
In Jesus ministry all jews were not saved and the bulk of the nation did not accept Christ because they rejected him Matthew 23:37-39. You are confused about the time factor of the KOH and the KOG message leading to all Israel will be saved. One has to keep the church age separate from the jews covenants concerning the KOH.
Was Jesus confused in John 10:16 when He said there would be one fold and one Shepherd?

4. Romans 9:6; In Paul's day all Israel was not Israel and that is true. Romans 9:8 is talking about the church of jews and gentiles.

Romans 9:8 cannot be talking about the Church only, because it contains one group who are not the children of God.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Church of Jesus Christ is not coming to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

BABerean2 said:

My comments here are in Bold Blue.

1. Romans 11:26; AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED : as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

NOTICE THE WORD ALL WHICH MEANS THE WHOLE NATION. ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!

HEBREWS SAYS THAT GOD WILL MAKE A COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH IN HEBREWS 8:8 AND IN VERSE 11; AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOUR AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING, KNOW THE LORD: FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST. THIS WILL HAPPEN IN THE TRIBULATION AND WHEN GOD COMES BACK AT ARMAGEDDON AND ISRAEL WILL BECOME THE CAPITOL OF THE WORLD.

2. Romans 9:27; a remnant will be saved in the tribulation. Revelation 12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
What you fail to realize is that all of Israel will accept Christ and he will write his laws into their minds and in their hearts and forgive their sins. This has to happen before the nation can fulfill their covenant of David concerning the kingdom as the head of the nations found in Isaiah 2:1-4.
In number 1. above you say "all" of Israel will be saved, but in 2. you say a "remnant" will be saved, during the tribulation.
The truth is that Romans 11:26 is referring back to Romans 11:23 in which the branches broken off can be grafted back into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ.
This is the manner in which "all Israel" will be saved, by becoming part of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

You have to remember that the Apostle Paul begins chapter 11 with two groups of Israelites. There were those Israelites who bowed to Baal and the remnant of 7,000 Israelites who would not bow to Baal.


The words are, and so shall all Israel be saved. The word so just adds emphasis to the word all. That is the manner which is backed up by the previous phrase (until the fulness of the gentiles be come in. You are the one wanting to alter the word all and that is incorrect and where you go wrong.
The last Gentile comes to faith in Christ on the day of His Second Coming, right before He returns.

The Greek word "houto" is an adverb of manner.
You are attempting to change it to the word "then", which is an adverb of time.
You are changing scripture to make John Darby's doctrine work.

3. First of all, Romans 11:26 is future to the tribulation because Christ will come out the Heavenly Mount Sion. So we are not talking about at Calvary.
All Israel didn't accept Christ in the early church and that is true but it was not time for another chance at the KOH and the KOG message to be fulfilled because only the father knew when that time would be.

The jews rejected Paul's ministry and he went to the gentiles. At the same time he understood the covenants for he was a jew himself. Romans 11:11; I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Jews were grafted in in that day because they were saved though not all and there was a remnant even then. However, the time factor of the full grafting in comes at the end of the tribulation.
This idea stands in direct conflict to the parable of the virgins in Matthew chapter 25.
There will be no second chances at His Second Coming, based on the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 25.

Whether or not the church is not pre-rapture doesn't even make a difference for all Israel will still be saved in that day
Here you are clearly changing the Greek word "houto", into an adverb of time by saying "in that day".

and Romans 11:26 focus is not the manner of merely being grafted in but ALL of Israel will be saved.
In Jesus ministry all jews were not saved and the bulk of the nation did not accept Christ because they rejected him Matthew 23:37-39. You are confused about the time factor of the KOH and the KOG message leading to all Israel will be saved. One has to keep the church age separate from the jews covenants concerning the KOH.
Was Jesus confused in John 10:16 when He said there would be one fold and one Shepherd?

4. Romans 9:6; In Paul's day all Israel was not Israel and that is true. Romans 9:8 is talking about the church of jews and gentiles.

Romans 9:8 cannot be talking about the Church only, because it contains one group who are not the children of God.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Church of Jesus Christ is not coming to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

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baberean2,

1. The bible says all Israel will be saved Romans 11:25 and the bible also says there is a remnant of believers that are scattered from the wilderness Revelation 12:18 where the bulk of the nation will be preserved in Revelation 12:14.

2. Romans 11:26 is talking about Christ coming out of heaven with the saints of the church who are already in heaven before the tribulation, during the tribulation and at the end of the tribulation Revelation 4:1, 5:10, 11:18, 19:11-15. They will come out of heaven to the battle of Armageddon to save all Israel for their nation will almost be snuffed out because the bible says that all nations will be gathered to Armageddon to do battle with the nation of Israel. Revelation 16:15-21, Revelation 1:7. Do you disagree with the scripture that references Israel as the nation being saved. The church didn't crucify the Lord as in Revelation 1:7.

3. God can graff them back in again verse 23, and in verse 24 grafted back in again to their own olive tree.

4. Matthew 25 is about the parable of the virgins and the KOH etc. It is about Israel being espoused to God and those who are left who are yearning and awaiting and ready for his return. We are not told whether or not those in the wilderness have actually been saved or not but the remnant are and the rebels are done away with and anyone who does not believe. Either way all Israel has to be saved and it is the nation of Israel that will be saved.

5. I have got to go but I have already explained and rebutted your scriptures. As far as the church being over is not true and I never said that and the bible don't say that.

6. You can say that the jewish nation will be a part of the church because David and Abraham are part of the church, but it will be only the jewish nation that will be at the head of the nations and that 12 jewish apostles ruling the 12 tribes. Isaiah 2:2-4, 9:6-7. Matthew 19:28.

7. The nation of Israel and the tribe of Judah will become one stick and not be separated anymore. There is no scripture to concretely back up that this passage makes them spiritual Israel with the gentile believers.
You still have not shown one scripture that can prove otherwise. The earthly calling specifically with the nation of Israel of the jewish race is not over with. If you think so then you obviously think there is no significance of what is happening with Israel today and the whole history of the war between them and Ishmael's descendants and the bible's covenant and earthly calling of Israel in the earthly KOH Reign. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

The nation of Israel and the tribe of Judah will become one stick and not be separated anymore. There is no scripture to concretely back up that this passage makes them spiritual Israel with the gentile believers.

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Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.




Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


Eph_2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Salvation now has nothing to do with bloodline.

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are the same, as seen in the video below starting at time 25:00.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.



Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.



Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.



Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


The terms "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven" are the same, as revealed by the parallel passages above.

.

BABerean2 said:

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.




Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


Eph_2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Salvation now has nothing to do with bloodline.

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are the same, as seen in the video below starting at time 25:00.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.



Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.



Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.



Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


The terms "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven" are the same, as revealed by the parallel passages above.

.

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baberean2,

1. Nobody has said salvation has anything to do with bloodline. This is what you want to use to prove Israel will not fulfill their covenants of Abraham and David concerning the land and the kingdom reign on earth.
So all you are doing is repeating your position and try to make people think that that is enough to prove your claim.
You need to quit trying to falsely deduce what I have said because it shows that you just want to prove your incorrect doctrine.

2. Acts 2:14 and 2:36 was the house of Israel from Christ's ministry under the period of the Mosaic law and the KOH and the KOG message which ended with Israel's rejection Matthew 23:37-39.
Just because Peter saw the similar signs of what will happen in the time of the kingdom getting ready to come to fruition doesn't mean that the kingdom offer was still in effect because Christ told them before the Day of Pentecost in Acts 1:6-7 that it was not for them to know the times and season of the kingdom for only the father knew. This shows that the promises would still come to pass with the nation of Israel but not at that time. These 2 verses alone prove you wrong about the KOH offer was still in effect till 70 A.D.
Surely you cannot be unable to understand what the scripture is saying in this context about the nation of Israel fulfilling their covenants of Abraham and David.

3. Romans 11:24 is talking about the grafting in of gentiles for they were to be saved and were because of Israel's rejection. This didn't happen until Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean which was 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost and Paul got the revelation from God in Arabia and the jews rejected him and he went to the gentiles which was after Peter got the vision or about the same time.

4. Ephesians 2:14 is talking about the Mystery of the church which the middle wall of partition was torn down at Calvary but didn't come to fruition until 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost.

5. The usage of the KOH and the KOG has both physical aspects as I have already mentioned and you keep skating from. The KOG is the universal kingdom of which the KOH is just the earthly sphere of the whole universal KOG. There are things that can be said of the KOH that can be said of the KOG because it is a part of the universal KOG. Matthew only records the KOH which is jewish in nature and the jews were never told to seek the kingdom in order to be blessed and saved. Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the KOH and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. Luke 17:20-21 it comes without observation and John 3:5 in being born of water and the spirit is a reference to the spiritual aspect of the KoG for he cannot see the KOG unless he is born of water and the spirit.
The point is not that the KoH and the KoG concerning the physical kingdom is not exactly the same in the overall context. The scriptures the preacher uses is talking about the physical kingdom and not the spiritual aspect of coming to Christ. The KOG is the spiritual aspect as in Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20. This is what I am talking about why it is important to understand the main distinctions between the KOH and the KOG. Even jewish theologians understand the distinctions. They believe that there is one Kingdom over all and that is the Kingdom of God and that is true because this earth is just one small part of the universal kingdom. At the same time they believe the distinctions need to be understood and this is what many gentile believers miss. One of the main reasons for this is because the belief that they are both the same across the board when they are not. Tunnel vision happens when one is so focused on one view fits all they cannot see the forest for the trees.

Are you ever going to give scriptural proof of the church being at the head of the nations and are the ones who will replace Judah and the house of Israel as believing jews and believing gentiles of the church? Jerry Kelso

Kelso, what do you expect from an individual who continues to confuse the other sheep by Covenant in Ezek. 34 with the without God in the world Gentiles of Eph. 2?

Do you really expect you can reason with someone that Scriptually ignorant, if not that downright dishonest?

I suggest you put him on ignore; free up his time a bit more for his endless youtube "doctrine," lol

Match his "ignore reason..."

jerry kelso said:

The usage of the KOH and the KOG has both physical aspects as I have already mentioned and you keep skating from

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Parallel passages clearly reveal that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not different, but are interchangeable terms.


Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.



Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.


Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
.

brotherjerry said:

---Nuff said---

Well put Job8 and spot on.

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And let's not forget this little nugget:

Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Joh 5:25-29)

BABerean2 said:

Parallel passages clearly reveal that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not different, but are interchangeable terms.

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The wording of scripture is very precise. Our Lord stressed this when He said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. The jot and the tittle were the two smallest marks used to build the letters of the Hebrew alphabet. So our Lord was saying that, not only every word, but even the spelling of every word, was significant.

Thus we see that there is significance in every change of wording in the entire Bible. Whether or not we understand the significance has zero bearing on whether or not it is real, and it is there.

What I am saying is that there are no complete synonyms in the Bible. Two different words always have two different meanings. But of course, many words mean different things in different contexts.

Biblewriter said:

The wording of scripture is very precise. Our Lord stressed this when He said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. The jot and the tittle were the two smallest marks used to build the letters of the Hebrew alphabet. So our Lord was saying that, not only every word, but even the spelling of every word, was significant.

Thus we see that there is significance in every change of wording in the entire Bible. Whether or not we understand the significance has zero bearing on whether or not it is real, and it is there.

What I am saying is that there are no complete synonyms in the Bible. Two different words always have two different meanings. But of course, many words mean different things in different contexts.

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Lewis Sperry Chafer the first president of Dallas Theological had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.


John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.




Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. KJV


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. NKJV


G1242


διαθήκη


diathēkē


dee-ath-ay'-kay


From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.




Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.



Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



Some have attempted to change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of time, in order to make John Darby's doctrine work.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


G3779


οὕτω

houtō

hoo'-to

Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.

From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

dysert said:

And let's not forget this little nugget:

Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Joh 5:25-29)

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2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
.

BABerean2 said:

Parallel passages clearly reveal that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not different, but are interchangeable terms.


Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.



Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.


Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
.

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baberean2,

1. You still have tunnel vision. I have already said that the physical KOG is the universal kingdom and the KOH is the earthly sphere that is just a part of the universal kingdom that is out of harmony with the universal KOG.

2. Even in these passages that you gave I have no problem necessarily being the same but in the bigger picture the spiritual aspect of the KOG is what the jews were to seek and they were never told to seek the KOH spiritually to be saved.

3. Matthew 6:33 seek the KOG; Luke 12:31; seek the KOG. This shows that the KOG in the spiritual aspect is different than the physical kingdom of either the KOH or the KOG.
You are trying to make the two the same in every passage because it is worded the same in other passages that talks about the physical aspect.

4. These needed to be understood as being separate and different. Luke 17:20-21; And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the KOG should come, he answered them and said, The KOG cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here or lo there! for behold, the KOG is within you.

5. This shows the pharisees were talking about the physical kingdom of God but the KOG spiritually was within them. These are two different things.

6. Matthew is jewish in nature and the jews understood about the KOH physical reign and the spiritual KOG that they had to receive in order to be spiritually saved because they were backslidden and that is why they had to Repent.

6. Many gentile believers don't even realize or have never heard about the actual KOH and the KOG message from the proper jewish perspective. This is because the jews understand that their gifts and callings as the head of the nations are eternal in the earthly KOH reign.

7. Now I know you won't like this and probably will claim fowl because you don't believe in dispensationalism. I have said before I don't believe every jot and tittle that all dispensationalists say but Rev. Finis J. Dake in his "Plan of God For Man" lesson 31, page 559-560 explains the differences between the KOH and the KOG terms and shows scriptures why for the differences scripturally.

8. Things such as Messiah being king of the KOH and God as its King. The KOH being temporary and the KOG eternal because the KOH will be submerged into the KOG so God can be all in all. The KOH is political in it sphere and the KOG is moral and spiritual because the KOH is limited to the earth. One must be born again to be in the KOG spiritually and the KOH comes with outward show. Flesh and blood does inherit the KOH for it is for earthly natural people. The KOG is not inherited by flesh and blood but by glorified saints who become heirs of all things. Men are never told to seek the KOH and is the Kingdom future and men are told to seek the KOG and this KOG spiritually is now. He gives plenty of scripture to understand the difference.

9. This is scripture and it known in the proper jewish perspective that they know is eternal and will come to pass and will bring the earth back into harmony with the whole universal KOG.

10. Are you going to give scripture that proves that the house of Israel and the tribe of Judah will be filled with the nation of gentiles from the church at the head of the nations over the whole earth. There is one fold spiritually but there is one role specific with the nation of Israel at the head of the nations over the world. Now you cannot give scripture to prove that the church is being spoken of in Ezekiel 37:22; And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel: and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. Neither shall they defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgression: but
I will save them out of all their dwelling place, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be King over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments and observe my statutes and do them.
The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church and the true church is not backslidden and doesn't have to be purified for we are being trained right now and Israel has been trodden down under the foot of men literally.
The church will not be defiled with idols and David will be King specifically over Israel and they shall have one shepherd. This is different than the church of today for it is specific to the nation of Israel in the earthly KOH reign.
I could go on but needless to say you have no scriptural foundation to say otherwise in the big picture of the KOH and the KOG. You can believe what you want but it is not scriptural of what you have shown that the church has taken the nation of Israel's place as the head of the nations in the KOH earthly reign. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

You can believe what you want but it is not scriptural of what you have shown that the church has taken the nation of Israel's place as the head of the nations in the KOH earthly reign

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1Pe_2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

.

BABerean2 said:

1Pe_2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

.

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baberean2,

Once again you are grasping at straws and try to pick out words that call the church a holy nation to equate it with Israel. It is true spiritually and that is what the phrase called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. This passage is spoke to Jews primarily and Peter still had the kingdom message in the back of his mind. This is nowhere an implication or fact about the physical kingdom of head at the nations not being for Israel and that the church has taken their place in the physical reign in the role of head at the nations.
You just contradicted yourself and didn't explain the verse in its proper context and that is why you will always be wrong on the true message of Israel's place in the KOH earthly reign.
Give up and surrender to the scriptures and it's context and learn some properly and rightly dividing the word. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

baberean2,

Once again you are grasping at straws and try to pick out words that call the church a holy nation to equate it with Israel. It is true spiritually and that is what the phrase called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. This passage is spoke to Jews primarily and Peter still had the kingdom message in the back of his mind. This is nowhere an implication or fact about the physical kingdom of head at the nations not being for Israel and that the church has taken their place in the physical reign in the role of head at the nations.
You just contradicted yourself and didn't explain the verse in its proper context and that is why you will always be wrong on the true message of Israel's place in the KOH earthly reign.
Give up and surrender to the scriptures and it's context and learn some properly and rightly dividing the word. Jerry Kelso

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Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
.

BABerean2 said:

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
.

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baberean2,

This proves nothing about the physical kingdom being the actual physical nation at the head of the nations in the government of the millennial kingdom on earth.
Terms of Israel of God and spiritual Israel are only that spiritual. The church has never, has not and will never take the place of physical Israel in their eternal covenants concerning the land and the kingdom on earth.
What is your problem of believing that God has one fold saved by one gospel that has different roles in the KOH? Don't say that your motive is to rightly divide the word because it is plain that you haven't.
You make a point to say that there is no plan b which I don't believe there was but yet you want so badly for the program of the covenants with Israel are over and the church takes their place because it's over with. That is ridiculous and it sounds just like Peter wondering why John was going to live and he wasn't and Jesus told him in John 21:22; Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

What is your problem of believing that God has one fold saved by one gospel that has different roles in

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Because the separation between all bloodlines of people was broken down at the Cross.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

.

BABerean2 said:

Because the separation between all bloodlines of people was broken down at the Cross.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

.

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baberean2,

1. You just keep farther and farther out of context of truth.

2. There was no separation of bloodlines connected to salvation.

3. There was no jewish race until Abraham who was a gentile and God made him the father of the jewish race.

4. This shows that there was no separation of bloodlines as your context implies.

5. The jewish nation was formed because they were to be a specific nation to bring in the Messiah. The jews were to be kind to the stranger at the gate which were gentiles who didn't have a covenant while the jews did.

6. The middle wall of partition is because Israel had the covenants given by God and they were strangers of the covenant of the promise but not because of bloodline. If it was because of bloodline God would be a respect of persons. God's desire has always been to save all people because they are all his creation.

7. Once again you have the wrong context of thinking and not to mention no scriptural basis for your bloodline theory. Good luck with your theory. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

baberean2,

1. You just keep farther and farther out of context of truth.

2. There was no separation of bloodlines connected to salvation.

3. There was no jewish race until Abraham who was a gentile and God made him the father of the jewish race.

4. This shows that there was no separation of bloodlines as your context implies.

5. The jewish nation was formed because they were to be a specific nation to bring in the Messiah. The jews were to be kind to the stranger at the gate which were gentiles who didn't have a covenant while the jews did.

6. The middle wall of partition is because Israel had the covenants given by God and they were strangers of the covenant of the promise but not because of bloodline. If it was because of bloodline God would be a respect of persons. God's desire has always been to save all people because they are all his creation.

7. Once again you have the wrong context of thinking and not to mention no scriptural basis for your bloodline theory. Good luck with your theory. Jerry Kelso

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Mat_21:43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon Rain Forest and a modern descendant of Jacob living in the modern nation of Israel.
They both need Jesus Christ for the same reason and in the same way.

.