Anti-Christ European What is 666 (the mark of the beast?)

I am referring to the highly speculative, varied and at times very dubious responses often given in respect of this type of question which render the sort of picture painted by the Monty Python crowd as respectable as any other.
I'm thinking that prophecy of this sort is given to glorify the One who knows the past-present and the future retrospectively and that any advance speculation needs to be taken with a large pinch of salt.
I think we should be watching in anticipation but the proof will be in the pudding, as they say.

Anguspure said in post 83:

I'm thinking that prophecy of this sort is given to glorify the One who knows the past-present and the future retrospectively and that any advance speculation needs to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

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Note that while, for example, the understanding of the Old Testament prophecies regarding Jesus' death for our sins (Isaiah 53; 1 Corinthians 15:3) and his rising physically from the dead (Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31) on the 3rd day (Hoses 6:2; 1 Corinthians 15:4, Colossians 2:12) wasn't given to the apostles until after they had witnessed the fulfillment of these prophecies (Luke 24:45-48), this doesn't contradict that other prophecies can be understood before they are fulfilled (e.g. Matthew 2:4-6).

Luke 24:45-48 happened before the Pentecost in Acts 2, and was made possible by the apostles receiving the Holy Spirit in some measure before that Pentecost (John 20:22). Unbelievers often can't understand the Spirit's teachings, including Biblical prophecy, because they haven't received the Spirit like believers have (1 Corinthians 2:11-16). But even believers retain their free will, and so can wrongly employ it to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) within them and reject what he is trying to tell them (either directly or through other Christians) regarding how to understand Biblical prophecies. It is possible for Christians to become united in what they believe (1 Corinthians 1:10), if they will submit their will to the Spirit and what he teaches in the Bible (2 Timothy 4:2-4).

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Also, Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

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Also, note that just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

To put it another way, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), should be relevant to every Christian regardless of whether or not he thinks he will still be alive to go through it, just as, for example, the past fulfillment of Genesis chapters 1 to 11 should be relevant to every Christian regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all scripture regarding all times is profitable to all Christians in all times (2 Timothy 3:16).

Also, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 should be especially relevant to every Christian alive today. For the main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

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On the other hand, preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

ihavefoundgod951 said:

What is the mark of the beast? 666

I will give you my theory. The number 6 in spirituality is a magic number. I believe this is witchcraft, witchcraft is everywhere I didn't realise it is as widespread as it is (not that I have anything against witches, God bless them may the Lord lead them to his son Jesus). 6=magical (wolf=beast) many witches love wolf's. Witchcraft is far more powerful then I ever imagined. This is my theory "paganism". What do you think. God bless

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In my New Kings James Bible Chronological version, it posits that the number 666 refers to Nero. It says that in those days everyone's names were identified by numbers which were then added together to get their number which had some significance. Apparently when you add Nero's numbers together they come to 666.

tiglathpileser said in post 85:

In my New Kings James Bible Chronological version, it posits that the number 666 refers to Nero.

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Note that Nero didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Nero didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until decades after the time of Nero. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Nero's reign was 54-68 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

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Also, regarding the claim (made by some) that Nero's name in Hebrew gematria added up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18), is there an ancient historical source which shows how "Nero Caesar" was usually transliterated into Hebrew at the time that Revelation was written, so we can confirm whether or not the usual Hebrew transliteration of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666 in Hebrew gematria, instead of an intentionally-altered Hebrew spelling? For example, why was an "n" added after "Nero", to make "Neron"; and why was the "ae" of "Caesar" skipped to make "Csar", when, for example, the "ae" in "Israel" gets at least an "aleph" in Hebrew? Could "Neron Csar" in fact be an intentionally-altered, never-actually-used spelling which adds up to 666, just as people today could intentionally mistransliterate into Hebrew the name of someone living today, so that the mistransliterated name adds up to 666 in Hebrew gematria? Also, just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. So even if it could be proven that the usual Hebrew spelling of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666, or that the usual spelling of the name of someone living today adds up to 666, this doesn't require that that person is the Antichrist.

Also, should we even assume that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Hebrew for it to add up to 666? For Revelation was originally addressed to Greek-speaking Gentile churches in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now western Turkey), not to Hebrew-speaking Jewish churches in Judaea. And John the apostle used 3 letters from the Greek alphabet to express the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), not any letters from the Hebrew alphabet. (But this doesn't require that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Greek in order for it to add up to 666, for John used the Greek alphabet only because it was the most common one used by the believers whom he was addressing at the time that Revelation was written.) Also, even when "Nero Caesar" (instead of "Neron Csar") is transliterated into Hebrew, it doesn't have to result in the name adding up to 666:

N - Nun = 50 (cf. the "Ne" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3: Nun for the "N" and nothing for the "e")
E /
R - Reysh = 200
O - Vav = 6 (cf. the "o" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3 being the letter Vav)

C - Qowph = 100 (cf. "Kareah" in the Hebrew of Jer. 40:8, & "Caesar" being "Kaisar" in the Greek of Mt. 22:17)
A - Aleph = 1 (cf. the "ae" in "Israel" in the Hebrew of Gen. 32:28: Aleph for the "a" and nothing for the "e")
E /
S - Samek = 60 (cf. the "sar" in "Ellasar" in the Hebrew of Gen. 14:1: Samek for the "s" & nothing for the "a")
A /
R - Reysh = 200

Total = 617

GracetotheHumble said in post 86:

VICARIUS FILII DEI = 666

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Note that "Vicarius Filii Dei", a title of the pope, only equals 666 when by mistake people use the Roman-numeral method of counting the number of a name:

V = 5
I = 1
C = 100
A
R
I = 1
U = 5 (because under this method U is the same as V)
S

F
I = 1
L = 50
I = 1
I = 1

D = 500
E
I = 1

Total = 666

This doesn't mean that the pope is the Antichrist. It just means that the Roman-numeral method gives false positives. For example:

E
L = 50
L = 50
E
N

G
O
U = 5
L = 50
D = 500

W = 10 (because W = double U = UU = VV)
H
I = 1
T
E

Total = 666

This doesn't mean that the most important early leader of the SDA-view is the Antichrist. It just means that the SDA-view (or any other view) shouldn't employ the Roman-numeral method of counting the number of a name, instead of the Bible's own method, which is gematria.

Bible2+ said:

This doesn't mean that the most important early leader of the SDA-view is the Antichrist. It just means that the SDA-view (or any other view) shouldn't employ the Roman-numeral method of counting the number of a name, instead of the Bible's own method, which is gematria.

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I am not so sure that count the number of beast implies gematria, although it could, of the person's name.

I remember being down at Arby's and when they took my order and paid, they hand me a ticket with a number, and the cashier would ask what is my name. So when the order is ready, it has a number and my name. And cashier calls out Doug or maybe he number.

What I am driving at is "count the number of the beast" could be something that we haven't even considered. I remember Herb Peters about ten years ago came up with a theory that seat 666 in the EU parliament would be filled by the beast person. (I haven't checked lately btw). So that is an example.

Good analysis, Bible2+, on why not Nero though.

GracetotheHumble said:

The title of the Papacy

VICARIUS FILII DEI = 666

Meaning = substituting for or in place of the son of God

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"substituting for or in place of" is one attribute of "Anti", yes. Also Anti is against.

Look at this passage...

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

So Christ in it Jewish and Old testament framework is the long awaited promised "King of Israel" to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace, harmony, safety.

Therefore, the "Anti" is someone in place of Jesus the rightful King of Israel, and someone against Jesus's being the rightful King of Israel. The Antichrist does not become the Antichrist until he is anointed the King of Israel.

Of course, none of that applies to the Pope. The person has to be a Jew and his religion Judaism for the Jews to anoint him as their King.

The earliest comment to modern scholars about the meaning of the 666 of the Revelation is thought to have been published between the years 186 and 188 A.D., in a five volume work titled "Against Heresies," by Irenaeus.

Irenaeus said:

"It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear. It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth: for the name Evanthas contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it. Then also Lateinos has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable, this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: I will not, however, make any boast over this. Teitan too, the first syllable being written with the two Greek vowels ? and ?, among all the names which are found among us, is rather worthy of credit. For it has in itself the predicted number, and is composed of six letters, each syllable containing three letters; and is ancient, and removed from ordinary use; for among our kings we find none bearing this name Titan, nor have any of the idols which are worshipped in public among the Greeks and barbarians this appellation. Among many persons, too, this name is accounted divine, so that even the sun is termed “Titan” by those who do now possess. This word, too, contains a certain outward appearance of vengeance, and of one inflicting merited punishment because he (Antichrist) pretends that he vindicates the oppressed. And besides this, it is an ancient name, one worthy of credit, of royal dignity, and still further, a name belonging to a tyrant. Inasmuch, then, as this name “Titan” has so much to recommend it, there is a strong degree of probability, that from among the many, we infer, that perchance he who is to come shall be called “Titan.” We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign. ("Against Heresies," by Irenaeus, book 5, chapter XXX, section 3)

Douggg said:

"substituting for or in place of" is one attribute of "Anti", yes. Also Anti is against.

Look at this passage...

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

So Christ in it Jewish and Old testament framework is the long awaited promised "King of Israel" to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace, harmony, safety.

Therefore, the "Anti" is someone in place of Jesus the rightful King of Israel, and someone against Jesus's being the rightful King of Israel. The Antichrist does not become the Antichrist until he is anointed the King of Israel.

Of course, none of that applies to the Pope. The person has to be a Jew and his religion Judaism for the Jews to anoint him as their King.

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There is nothing in scripture that suggests that the Anti Christ is a Jew. Actually quite the contrary. The scriptures state that he will exalt himself in the temple of God. The N.T. also instructs us that the body of Christ is that temple. So the Anti Christ is someone who exalts himself in the Church which perfectly fits the office of the Papacy.

GracetotheHumble said:

There is nothing in scripture that suggests that the Anti Christ is a Jew. Actually quite the contrary. The scriptures state that he will exalt himself in the temple of God. The N.T. also instructs us that the body of Christ is that temple. So the Anti Christ is someone who exalts himself in the Church which perfectly fits the office of the Papacy.

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GracetotheHumble, don't you think that Paul would have made that perfectly clear in 2thess2:3-4, that the person in the temple of God, sits, showing that he is God is actually talking about the body of Christ - the church ?

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Do you think in Ezekiel 28:12-19, the King of Tyre, is a code name for Satan and the verses really pertain to him? I am sure that they do, 100% positive. Likewise, if one reads about the prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:1-10, it is actually talking about the man of sin, who is also the little horn of Daniel 8, "sitting" in the seat of of God. The reason given in the text is because the person magnifies himself in his heart. And if you go to Daniel 8:25, the same trait is prophesied of the little horn.

The temple of God that the man of sin will sit in is a literal physical temple

GracetotheHumble said:

There is nothing in scripture that suggests that the Anti Christ is a Jew. Actually quite the contrary. The scriptures state that he will exalt himself in the temple of God. The N.T. also instructs us that the body of Christ is that temple. So the Anti Christ is someone who exalts himself in the Church which perfectly fits the office of the Papacy.

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To become the Antichrist - the King of Israel, illegitimate, someone God did not send to be their King, the person has to be a Jew.

In Isaiah 14:20, the person will be cast out of the grave because he destroys his land and his people - he will be a Jew.
In Isaiah 14:19, the person is likened to an abominable branch, Jesus is the righteous branch - he will be a Jew.

In Daniel 11:37, he has no regard for the God of his fathers, The true God of the bible is said to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - he will be a Jew.

In Daniel 8:11-13, he transgresses the covenant which established the daily sacrifices. He does so by committing the act called the Transgression of Desolation. In Daniel 9:11, Daniel prayed and acknowledged that his people Israel "transgressed" the laws of Moses and the agreement with God made in the desert. The person will be a Jew.

The person will be a Jew. But he comes out of the nations, not Israel, specifically the EU, the end times Roman empire; the nations are represented by the sea in Revelation 13:1.

Now what is it from the bible that makes you so sure the person is not going to be a Jew? Suppose in giving you rationale, we were living in say 100 AD, before there was a Pope and inquisition. What I am saying is that you are reading bible prophecy through the eyes of the Reformers.

Douggg said:

GracetotheHumble, don't you think that Paul would have made that perfectly clear in 2thess2:3-4, that the person in the temple of God, sits, showing that he is God is actually talking about the body of Christ - the church ?

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Do you think in Ezekiel 28:12-19, the King of Tyre, is a code name for Satan and the verses really pertain to him? I am sure that they do, 100% positive. Likewise, if one reads about the prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:1-10, it is actually talking about the man of sin, who is also the little horn of Daniel 8, "sitting" in the seat of of God. The reason given in the text is because the person magnifies himself in his heart. And if you go to Daniel 8:25, the same trait is prophesied of the little horn.

The temple of God that the man of sin will sit in is a literal physical temple

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No. The New Testament makes it clear that the body of Christ is the temple:

Ephesians 2:20-21
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Douggg said:

To become the Antichrist - the King of Israel, illegitimate, someone God did not send to be their King, the person has to be a Jew.

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No, there is nothing in the scriptures to suggest that the Anti-Christ is a Jew. He comes to the Church not the Jews. The description of the Anti-Christ fits the Papacy and all the great preachers of history agreed.

GracetotheHumble said:

No. The New Testament makes it clear that the body of Christ is the temple:

Ephesians 2:20-21
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

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But that is in the metaphorical sense. The man of sin sitting the temple of God is not metaphoric.

Douggg said:

But that is in the metaphorical sense. The man of sin sitting the temple of God is not metaphoric.

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It's not metaphoric. The Pope of Rome sits in the temple of God.....Christ's church. There is nothing metaphoric about it.

GracetotheHumble said:

No, there is nothing in the scriptures to suggest that the Anti-Christ is a Jew. He comes to the Church not the Jews. The description of the Anti-Christ fits the Papacy and all the great preachers of history agreed.

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You are making that statement, but not with any biblical text from the bible stating he will not be a Jew.

All the great preachers of history agreed? Some agreed, influenced by the persecution by the Popes of the middle ages.

GracetotheHumble said:

It's not metaphoric. The Pope of Rome sits in the temple of God.....Christ's church. There is nothing metaphoric about it.

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Christ's church is a (non metaphoric) building in Rome?