Climate change is a moral issue?

MikeK

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I work for a major manufacturer in Wisconsin. We are experiencing massive growth (in terms of both revenue and number of people employed) and future projections all look good. We we early to the game in adopting methods to reduce energy consumption and the company continues to invest in pioneering new manufacturing methods with reduced pollution and consumption coupled with greater efficiency. Part of that is because responsibility and stewardship are core pieces of the company's charter, and part of that is because it makes sound financial sense.
 
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Genersis

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Heritage Foundation analysts modeled the economic effects of a phase-out of coal between the years 2015 and 2038. Using the Heritage Foundation Energy Model, a derivative of the federal government’s National Energy Model System, we found that by the end of 2023, nearly 600,000 jobs will be lost, a family of four’s income will drop by $1,200 per year, and aggregate gross domestic product decreases by $2.23 trillion over the entire period of the analysis.[3 ]

Manufacturing Hit Hard
America’s manufacturing base will be particularly harmed by the EPA’s climate regulations. Manufacturing accounts for over 330,000 of the jobs lost.[4] This occurs for a number of reasons.

As more coal generation is taken offline, the marketplace must find a way to make up for that lost supply. The Heritage Energy Model builds in the most cost-effective means of replacing the lost coal through a combination of consumers decreasing energy use as an adjustment to higher prices and increased power generation from other sources.

Manufacturing is an energy-intensive industry, and the impact of the higher energy prices on manufacturing averages to more than 770 jobs losses per congressional district. However, not all regions are affected the same, as districts in Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, and Illinois are especially hit hard. In fact, 19 out of the top 20 worse off congressional districts from the Administration’s war on coal are located in the Midwest region. In those districts, the manufacturing industry, on average, will slash more than 1,600 jobs by 2023. The table at the end of the paper shows the estimates of the decrease of manufacturing employment per congressional district by 2023.

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...-regulations-will-harm-american-manufacturing
Err, I hate to be a stick in the mud, but the claims of analysts of a political organisation against any kind of environmentalism is going to be dubious at best on environmental regulations.
Especially based on an unexplained assumptions that energy prices will correlate to job losses due to assumed higher energy prices based on a model they themselves devised.
It's prettied up speculation at best. Speculation in which they benefit from making coal look as good as possible.

It should be noted that coal plants can still be built, just with a Carbon Capture System; which must be truly prohibitive to install if it's going to trigger the coal phase out that all these numbers are based on.
Basically, they took the introduction of a fairly mundane regulation, to grandstand about the end of coal and what the worst case scenario may look like.
 
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Thursday

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Err, I hate to be a stick in the mud, but the claims of analysts of a political organisation against any kind of environmentalism .

The Heritage Foundation, and all conservatives, support many common sense environmental regulations.

CO2 is not pollution, though. It is a political stick to beat down industry and build up governments.
 
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Davidnic

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The Heritage Foundation, and all conservatives, support many common sense environmental regulations.

CO2 is not pollution, though. It is a political stick to beat down industry and build up governments.

Carbon Dioxide in excess causes problems. Not in naturally closed system, but we do not have that.
 
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Thursday

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Carbon Dioxide in excess causes problems. Not in naturally closed system, but we do not have that.


We don't have that problem.

Carbon dioxide percentage increases lead to faster plant growth, which is good for the earth.
 
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Davidnic

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We don't have that problem.

Carbon dioxide percentage increases lead to faster plant growth, which is good for the earth.

Although plant growth can surge with excess Carbon Dioxide in the air the effects level due to limits imposed by soil and water resources. And the higher temperature reduces plant growth in some regions and hampers nitrogen absorption. So excess carbon dioxide acts as a nitrogen intercept, limiting growth.

People like to point to incomplete and misinterpreted studies to say it will just make plants grow faster. It is far more complex. It does not bear out across the planet and . As I said factors limit it. You are aware there are drought and global water issues...another fairly important part of plant growth. The biosphere actually starts becoming a source of carbon dioxide at a point.

So there is still excess Carbon Dioxide beyond the point where it has benefits. Past the point we are hitting studies show that the stoma of the leaves can close up to 40%, meaning no...it will not stimulate growth.

All studies showing that it will stimulate growth come with conditional commentary that is almost always ignored in favor of simplicity in people who want to believe what they want to believe. But people take them as headlines and webpages talk about how plants needs Co2 and it is not a problem. But no real science agrees with that. Even those that agree that some growth will happen know the limiting factors.

People need water but if you inhibit the ability of the person to process it then it is no longer good. Same with some vitamins and nutrients. Protein is great, we need it...but there are diseases that inhibit the processing of amino acids and then the protein destroys the brain. Same thing. So do plants need Carbon Dioxide? Yep. Can they have too much? Yep. They are not magical machines to relieve us of responsibility. No matter what some headlines and misrepresented studies say.
 
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Genersis

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The Heritage Foundation, and all conservatives, support many common sense environmental regulations.
So conservatives and a conservative think tank agrees with you, but is it really common sense if most people who aren't conservatives disagree with you?
And a lot of conservatives outside your country also?
It's not really "common" in the global picture.
Besides, how common a belief is has little impact on it's validity.

Claiming to be taking the "common sense" position is a terrible way to make your claims seem valid at face value.
CO2 is not pollution, though. It is a political stick to beat down industry and build up governments.
Anything can be a pollutant in large enough quantities.
Ever heard of that old saying, "The dose makes the poison"?
It holds true, least in the case of the composition of the Earth's atmosphere.

Carbon Dioxide is normally absorbed through a number of natural mechanisms.
Oceans, notably(and the first that came to mind), have absorbed excessively large quantities thanks to our pollution, but it is unknown how much more they can absorb.
Regardless, the Oceans are becoming more acidic.
Needless to say, if such continues, it could be catastrophic for marine life, let alone what would happen if they reached maximum saturation and all that CO2 we produce stays in the air.
 
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Martinius

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It is a political issue because it is being used by politicians on the left to gain more power over the lives of others.

It is being used to damage industry and economic growth throughout the world and to damage low income workers.
Of course, politicians on the right would never use an issue to gain more power, would they?

The second sentence is totally bogus on several levels. The first being that we don't really know industry is being damaged, or that economic "growth" is always beneficial to all (it is usually beneficial to some), or that low income workers are negatively affected. I have heard people say that building coal fired power plants in 3rd world countries will create jobs. The real reason for wanting to allow such a plant is so factories can be built in places where people will work for starvation wages, since they have no other options.

A better translation of the second sentence would be:

"Laws and programs designed to slow climate change and/or protect our environment make it more difficult for industrialists to do whatever they want, wherever they want, whenever they want, including using up limited natural resources, abusing the land, water and air that people depend on for their sustenance, and paying workers as little as possible, with no regard for the future of our planet or for humanity, in order to maximize wealth in the short term for themselves and other elite rich."

Which, as can easily be surmised, brings up a whole host of moral issues, all of which are detailed in the Pope's encyclical as well as in a host of other Catholic Church documents and statements for the past 40 years or so.

No matter how you slice it or dice it, we are dealing with moral issues here, and issues that are likely critical to the lives of future generations. But I guess if you prefer selling out your children, your granchildren, etc., so that a small minority of people can enjoy material riches now, you can try to explain the morality of that when God asks you about how well you loved and cared for your brothers and sisters (who are, as Jesus emphasized several times, EVERYBODY). Good luck with that.
 
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Davidnic

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Conversation is conversation. :p Someone may come along and learn something.

Newman99 once told me at one point you're just posting for the people who are reading it but you don't see. So don't let error go unchallenged.
 
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Michie

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Newman99 once told me at one point you're just posting for the people who are reading it but you don't see. So don't let error go unchallenged.
God bless him. He was such a good friend.
 
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Martinius

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You guys realize you're wasting your breath, right?
I agree to a point, in that it won't change the minds of those we respond to. However, for those who read their posts, it is unacceptable to allow their statements to go unchallenged, and for Catholics and others who read the posts to think they are stating the actual teachings of the Church. There are too many misinformed people as it is.
 
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Davidnic

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God bless him. He was such a good friend.

On Facebook occasionally it will remind me it is his birthday because his account still exists. I do miss him. I pray for D'Ann a lot, it has to be so hard.
 
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Dennis J

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Climate Change is an observable phenomenon. It is not a political issue, or a moral/religious issue. Often you see lists of "Scientists that do not agree with Climate Change" When you follow up on most of the people on this list you see people with PhD's in lots of disciplines well outside of Climatology, Geology or the rest of the Earth Sciences. I see people with a degree in Sociology, Theology, Philosophy, Political Science and many other unrelated fields. These people have no more credibility than any other random man on the street.

I am a business woman and a musician. I can speak pretty authoritatively on these subjects. Outside of my area of expertise, I am only offering an opinion which has no greater or lessor credibility than any other uninformed opinion.

When I am sick I want to go to a doctor, not a celebrity that crusades against vaccinations.

Politicians need to stay out of the climate change debate and let the scientists in the related fields sort it out.

Thank you for your post!
Seems like we politicize morality and moralize politics.
Climate change is natural, it has been happening from the beginning of time.

Is this post supposed to be about man made global warming?
 
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Fantine

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It is a political issue because it is being used by politicians on the left to gain more power over the lives of others.

It is being used to damage industry and economic growth throughout the world and to damage low income workers.

What you call "gaining more power over the lives of others" is often "saving the lives of others...."

I have a friend who is fighting for her life tonight. She grew up near a creek where a local company had dumped radioactive waste. She's fifteen years younger than me and if you had read as many heartbreaking posts as I have the past few months you would want to string up the execs of this company and drop them off the nearest bridge.

Don't believe that authorizing sensible regulations to protect our environment is part of a government power grab....

My friend, her husband and children would have kissed the feet of a government that prevented companies from dropping radioactive waste in local creeks.
 
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sylverpiano

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Thank you for your post!
Seems like we politicize morality and moralize politics.
Climate change is natural, it has been happening from the beginning of time.

Is this post supposed to be about man made global warming?
Hey there, Dennis J

I am a business woman and a piano player. I can play you a nice sonata or etude, and I can certainly send a crew to your business to fix just about anything that needs fixing.

As far as making a determination regarding climate change being man made or not, It is not in my area of expertise, and I am not competent enough to have anything other than a woman on the street opinion.

I leave science to the scientists.
 
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