God is not blood thirsty but He does require blood for the forgiveness of sin.

bling said:

Jason, your opening title says it all:


“God is not blood thirsty but He does require blood for the forgiveness of sin.”

So “God requires blood to forgive sins”?

That is the same thing as saying God is “blood thirsty”, in that He somehow must be satisfied with “blood” to do anything?

God knows what we need and as a wonderful sacrificial Father he is willing to do almost anything to provide us with all the help we need including Christ going to the cross.

While I am saying “blood” is needed in the forgiveness process, but it is not because of some “problem” God is having with forgiving, but the problem is with man’s weakness with fully accepting God’s forgiveness as an unbelievable huge gift of pure charity.

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But in your version of grace it is not really grace because it sweeps the consequences of sin under the carpet. No payment for sin or justice needs to be answered in your view. Evil can just win the day. Sin can win the day. There is no justice in your view. God just forgives and He really does not always care about if a person's sins will be truly answered for.

See, what you fail to understand is that there is mercy and forgiveness for a person, but God is simply not in the business of ignoring sin and it's consequences in the process, though. That sir is not grace because it ignores justice.


...

Dear Boxer:

Also, Job was perfect and upright and a fearer of God. Yet God put this good man of God thru a great trial where he lost his children and possessions and his health. Job's so called friends were trying to convince Job that he must have done some kind of sin to warrant his punishment from God. Yet this was not the case. Also, Jesus was without sin and yet he was punished. An innocent man who was sinless was punished on our behalf.



...

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EmSw said:

Jason, you need to learn what remission means. Go, look it up on Strong's.

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And you need to look at the whole of the Bible and accept what it says. Looking at one set of certain verses in the Bible and ignoring others is the oldest trick in the book when it comes to false theology and beliefs. For the Bible says without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22). Yet, it is rather convenient that the book of the Bible that just so happens to be in question of being of divine origin by you also happens to incriminate your belief system. Yet, even if you rejected the book of Hebrews, the rest of the Bible also refutes your false belief that Jesus did not die for my sins and his shed blood actually cleanses sin as a part of the redemption process (Which was accomplished by Christ on calvary and in His resurrection). For 1 Corinthians 15:17 says if Christ be not raised, ye are yet in your sins.


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brotherjerry said:

Not certain what you are getting at here. God does not ignore sin, but Christ paid the penalty of sin. "The wages of sin is death", and Christ was the perfect sacrifice. Christs blood was the propitiation for sins. There is no more blood required for the forgiveness of sins because Christ paid that price. That is the grace that God has shown...He paid the penalty of sin for us. Grace is perfected in that action.

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First, Jesus does NOT pay for a person's future sins. This would be immoral and evil and wrong on so many levels (And you know it). This would give a person the thinking that they have a license to sin because they have now reduced sin to a mere fluffy kitten. I do not care if you think you do not teach that true believers never live extremely immoral lives (And that they must generally live holy). Your message if not properly explained can lead a person to think they have a license to sin. Besides, it only takes one really bad sin to separate a person from God. Or did you completely miss what happened in the Garden of Eden? God does not overlook sin because of what Christ has done on the cross. If you do evil you are evil. Future sins are not paid for. Only Christ can change you from the inside out and make you a new creature in Him whereby you will never want to sin again. Remember. Jesus said, "Except you repent, you shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3).

Jesus defined repentance for us.
He said the Ninevites shall rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41).
If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would see the King of the Ninevites decreeing to all of Nineveh to put on sackcloth and to cry out unto God and to turn from their wicked or evil ways. Then God had seen that they turned from their sinful ways and He pulled back the Wrath of Punishment that He said He would bring upon them (Jonah 3:6-10).

Second, there are many sins that a believer can commit (if not confessed and forsaken) that can prevent a believer from entering God's Kingdom. Jesus says, if you look upon a woman in lust your whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you do not forgive, then the Father will not forgive you (Matthew 6:15). Jesus said if we are ashamed of Him and His words, then He will be ashamed of us (Mark 8:38). Jesus says, "that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned." (Matthew 12:36-37). John says if you hate, you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). John aslo says that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). All means all. All liars would include believers who are liars. Jesus says if a man does not do what he says he is likened to a fool who built his house upon the sand whereby a storm came and destroyed that house greatly (Matthew 7:26-27). For Jesus said not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but He that does the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21). What is the will of the Father or the will of God according to Scripture? 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says that the will of God is our Sanctification or holiness. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Three, 1 John 3:7 says, "let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous,"
1 John 3:8 says, "he that commits sin is of the devil"

1 John 2:3-6 says,
3 "And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: by this we know that we are in him.
6 He that says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Again, Revelation says,

"....and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).
"And cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (Matthew 12:48).
"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."
(Matthew 13:41).
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
(Matthew 7:23).

Again, as I said before, "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father [God] who is in heaven."
(Matthew 7:21).
"God's will is for you to be holy," (1 Thessalonians 4:3 NLT).
Without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
"26 And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
(Matthew 7:26-27).

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
(Galatians 6:7-9).

If any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments."
(Matthew 19:17).
"If you love me, keep my commandments."
(John 14:15).
"He that loves not knows not God; for God is love."
(1 John 4:8).
"He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life."
(1 John 5:12).


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bling said:

WOW!! Just the opposite is happening. With your interpretation of scripture you have the innocent person (Jesus) being tortured, humiliated and murdered by the judge (God) and the guilty person (yourself) being let go without receiving any discipline (often translated punishment).

With my understanding of scripture: the innocent (Jesus) is tortured, humiliated and murdered by wicked people (really our representatives) with God and Christ both allowing this to happen to help willing individuals (us). We (individually) are both the reason and cause of Christ’s suffering. As we come to the realization of what we caused and accept the responsibility for what we did (another words accept the ransom payment) we experience a death blow to our hearts (the same as those in Acts 2: 37) through our Love for Christ (empathy) we experience the worst possible pain and still be able to live. This pain would be felt every time we take the Lord’s Super and would be totally debilitating except for the fact the greatest Love is experienced at the same time.



God is not “ignoring” sin, but he does forgive our sins if we humbly accept god’s forgiveness as pure charity and not something “paid for” by something Christ did.

“Justice” from your Loving Father is “fair disciplining” and Loving discipline when received correctly will result in an even closer relationship with your father. The disciplining you experience is in direct proportion to the Love you have for Christ.

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I can say .... "Wow" back, too. For your belief does not make any sense.
In fact, it is confusion. No way would I ever have accepted the Lord under your current belief system. For your belief of Christ's death and resurrection is not central to the gospel message.

Yes, a ransom was paid. A ransom was paid so as to take care of man's sin debt in order to offer man the free gift of salvation. Yet, somehow you use clever word play to say that you believe in a ransom when that is not what you really believe. A ransom was paid so as to free us from our past sin debt and to free us from our old life of sin. We are forgiven on the basis of that ransom that is paid if we accept His gift.

In your view: Jesus did not really die for a good reason. It is all just a meaningless event to satisfy man's whims or to take care of something really not all that important. God died so as to pay the price for our sins. For Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the entire world. Jesus was raised so that we could be raised in His likeness. No death of Jesus and there is no salvation. We cannot be buried in the likeness of Him and die to ourselves and be forgiven if Christ did not die for our sins. If there was no resurrection, then we are yet in our sins. For with the resurrection we conquer the penalty of sin and we can live forever with the Lord.

In your belief system a man could have murdered hundreds of children before coming to Christ and yet God just wipes away the crimes of this man based on this one man's seeking forgiveness with God. No payment is necessary to satisfy justice's demands so as to answer for the crimes of done against these innocent children. These crimes can be just swept under the carpet with your belief. Justice can go unanswered. Sin can win the day because God does not really care about the consequences of sin in the type of belief that you possess.


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bling said:

I never said that or suggested that?

The “death and resurrection” is central to our understanding of Christ’s victory over death (which had held everyone previous to the resurrection captive. We, as Christians, should have no fear of death because we know we will rise again, just as Jesus rose from the grave. That is truly good news.

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So you believe that the resurrection is essential to salvation?
If so, then how can you have a resurrection without a death?

bling said:

What we are talking about is cruel torturous bloody murder of Christ, which comes before the actual transition from physical earthly life to the Spiritual realm.

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God planned the death of His Son from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8) (1 Peter 1:20). This does not include all the Messianic prophecies that predicted His death, too. So you are in denial that Christ's death was a part of God's plan all along.

bling said:

Christ, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew writer all describe Jesus’ cruel torture, humiliation and murder on the cross as the “ransom payment”. This was to set the child of God free to go to the father.

This is not described as an analogy, but a literal ransom scenario which means in keeping with the first century thinking:

A huge payment would be made by a benevolent benefactor.

The Kidnap would set the payment and could accept or reject the offer.

The payment would have value/benefit for the kidnapper.

If there was another totally safe way to free the child without making the payment it would be wrong for the benefactor to make the payment.

The transaction must be completed to free the child and if completed the child is set free to go to the Father.

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The word "ransom" cannot be understood in terms of our Modern understanding of that word alone. If we were to apply the kidnapper theory to your belief system here, then who was kidnapping us? The devil? Did God pay the ransom to the devil who was holding us prisoner? If that was the case, then the devil would have had gained some kind of benefit (i.e. the ransom) from this whole transaction. However, such a thing would not make any sense.

bling said:

Under your scenario:

Who is the child?

Who is the kidnapper?

What value does the blood poured out of Christ’s body have for the kidnapper?

If the ransom was completely paid, why are some children not going to the father and still being held by the kidnapper?

I am saying: the unbeliever himself is holding the child that can go to the Father back from the Father (we all must go as children to the father, born again).

The unbeliever decides to accept the ransom payment completing the transaction or reject the payment and remain captive.

The value of the blood is in the cleansing power that can wash away the sins of the kidnapper (unbeliever), so the kidnapper wants Christ’s blood outside of Christ’s body and available to flow over him.

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But nowhere does Scripture teach that Christ's death on our behalf was like that of a ransoming a kidnapped child. You are applying terms to the word "ransom" that do not apply to how that word was used in the writing of the Bible back in the 1600's.

Was the Prodigal Son kidnapped by the will of Satan? Did the Prodigal Son blame the devil for his condition or did The Prodigal Son admit to his own sin?

Ransom means to be redeemed. We are ransomed or set free from sin. There is no kidnapper in this scenario.

bling said:

How important is it for a parent to see to the disciplining (punishing) of their child if it is at all possible?

What do you call a parent; who has the opportunity to discipline, yet does not discipline their children?

Again you want to go right to the importance of the resurrection which is not part of the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of Christ, but comes afterwards.

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"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." (Isaiah 53:10).

bling said:

Was King David forgiven?

Was Paul, the chief of sinners, forgiven?

If the debt is paid, than why does it also need to be forgiven?

If the debt is unconditionally forgiven why does it also need to be paid?

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I can write a check to cancel out all your debts, but it is up to you if you want to accept that check and use it properly or not to pay off your debts. Asking God to forgive you and believing that He died in your place is accepting that check so as to personally take care of your debts. God had provided a sacrifice or He has made the necessary payment so as to offer you the free gift (i.e. the check) to help you (cancel out your debts). It is up to you if you want to cancel out your debt by truly believing what He has done for you. For if you believe the check is a fake, then it does you no good so as to help you. However, your lack of not accepting the gift (as it was intended) does not change or alter the payment that Christ made for sin. For Christ said, "it is finished." (John 19:30). For He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

As for the Old Testament saint's forgiveness by God: They believed in a future Messiah who would forever save them from their sins permanently. In the mean time, they had to offer animal sacrifices to temporarily cover their past sins. For they had to revisit their same sins year after year.



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Christ's death was not something that God was strong armed into doing.
God planned all along to have Christ crucified from long ago. For here are...

Messianic Prophecies dealing with Christ's death:

#1. Genesis 3:15 Christ's heel would be bruised with nails on the cross. Matthew 27:35, Luke 24:39-40
For..

14 "...the LORD God said unto the serpent,
15 ...and you shall bruise his heel."
(Genesis 3:15)

"...they pierced my hands and my feet." (Psalms 22:16).

"Which none of the princes of this world (i.e. Satan and his demonic rulers) knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1 Corinthians 2:8).


#2. Exodus 12:3-6 The Lamb presented to Israel 4 days before Passover. Mark 11:7-11
#3. Exodus 12:5 A Lamb without blemish. Hebrews 9:14; 1 Peter 1:19
#4. Exodus 12:13 The blood of the Lamb saves from wrath. Romans 5:8
#5. Exodus 12:21-27 Christ is our Passover. 1 Corinthians 5:7
#6. Exodus 12:46 Not a bone of the Lamb to be broken. John 19:31-3
#7. Leviticus 1:2-9 His sacrifice a sweet smelling savor unto God. Ephesians 5:2
#8. Leviticus 16:15-17 Prefigures Christ's once-for-all death. Hebrews 9:7-14
#9. Leviticus 17:11 The Blood-the life of the flesh. Matthew 26:28; Mark 10:45
#10. Leviticus 17:11 It is the blood that makes atonement. Romans 3:23-24; 1 John 1:7
#11. Numbers 9:12 Not a bone of Him broken. John 19:31-36
#12. Numbers 21:9 The serpent on a pole-Christ lifted up. John 3:14-18, John 12:32
#13. Psalms 22:14 His blood poured out when they pierced His side. John 19:34
#14. Psalms 22:16 They pierced His hands and His feet. John 19:37; John 20:27
#15. Psalms 31:5 "Into thy hands I commit my spirit." Luke 23:46
#16. Psalms 31:13 They took counsel to put Him to death. Matthew 27:1, John 11:53
#17. Isaiah 53:5a Bears penalty for mankind's iniquities. 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 2:9
#18 Isaiah 53:5b His sacrifice provides peace between man and God. Colossians 1:20
#18. Isaiah 53:5c His sacrifice would heal man of sin. 1 Peter 2:24
#19 Isaiah 53:6a He would be the sin-bearer for all mankind. 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10
#20. Isaiah 53:6b God's will that He bear sin for all mankind. Galatians 1:4
#21. Isaiah 53:7c Sacrificial lamb. John 1:29, 1 Peter 1:18-19
#22. Isaiah 53:8c Killed. Matthew 27:35
#23. Isaiah 53:8d Dies for the sins of the world. 1 John 2:2
#24. Isaiah 53:10a God's will that He die for mankind. John 18:11
#25. Isaiah 53:10b An offering for sin. Matthew 20:28, Galatians 3:13
#26. Zechariah 12:10a The Messiah's body would be pierced. John 19:34-37



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bling said:

No! God saves, while some action even by Christ does not do the saving of a person.

Do you believe God has the power and Love and can save whoever He decides to save at any time in history with or without Christ doing something?

Yes! You must have a death to have a resurrection, but this thread is about the cruel bloody torture and murder of Christ which is not needed for a resurrection.



Again, we are talking about the “reason” for the bloody cruel torturous death of Christ, which was also in God’s plan from the beginning. This portion of the crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection is described as the ransom payment.



Never suggested that and you are not reading my comments.

God does not “owe” satan anything and God has the power to take all His children back without having to pay so it would be wrong for God to pay His enemy satan.

The unbeliever always likes to blame satan for his unbelieve and it is satan’s fault he is hell bound, but the truth of the matter is the unbeliever himself is to blame. The unbeliever is holding back a child of God (himself) from his Father. If the unbeliever would just give up/ quit/ surrender; humbly accept God’s Love in the form of forgiveness he would be freed.



The NT Bible was written in Greek back in the first century and copied from then on. The first English translation may come from the 1600’s, but all others translations go back to the oldest Greek copies and translate from the original Greek. It really has to do with how those particular groups of first century Christians (those being addressed in the letter) would understand the words in the context of the letter. We do know it was very well known Caesar at 21 had been kidnapped and a huge ransom was paid for his release. The “redemption” wording had to do with being set free by a huge payment being made. The Hebrews in the OT did also use the Hebrew word for ransom to describe a pole tax, but the use in the different contexts in the NT clearly show it was not referring to a small payable tax made by the individual to stay out of trouble, but was a huge payment to set the captive free.


Quit blaming satan.


Sin is an intangible and would have no need for the blood of Christ?

Ransom does not just mean “redeemed”, but describes the entire transaction. There is redemption, but there is also a huge payment of Christ crucified, a kidnapper, God making the payment and the acceptance of the payment by the kidnapper.



Excellent verse but I like a more modern translation of the Greek:

(NIV) Is. 53:10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,

and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring and prolong his days,

and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.


Do you feel God was happy to see Christ be tortured, humiliated and murdered by wicked people or would God have (empathetically) personally preferred to have that blood remain flowing through Christ’s veins?

Like I said before, from the beginning of time God saw the need humans would have for a suffering savior, so that was His will.



If you write a check and pay my debt, then I do not have to seek forgiveness of that debt.

Do you ask God to pay your debt off or forgive you of your debt?

Who do you owe this debt to?

Christ is the atonement sacrifice but you need to start with Lev. 5 and understand the entire atonement process. A bag of flour could be the atonement sacrifice in Lev. 5 and no Jew would feel the bag of flour was taking his place.

Christ said “it is finished” before he died so what was finished prior to His death?

Those sacrifices were only for unintentional sins.

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First, I already shown you verses before that the animal sacrifices were not just for unintentional sins.
Now, it is up to you if you want to believe those verses in Scripture or not.

Second, please explain to me the purpose of what you think Christ's sacrifice serves? What does it actually do for believers? Nothing?
If the sacrifice was so horrible, then why did God allow it?
If the sacrifice was so horrible, then why would God lower Himself to man's level?
What does the resurrection do for believers?
Why would God have Messianic prophecies within His Word in regards to Christ's death?
Does that sound like God was being convinced by what man was doing?
Or do you think maybe it was God's plan all along to send the Son so as to die in our place?


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EmSw said:

Jason, do you require a bloody sacrifice before you forgive anyone? Are you telling me you can't forgive me without blood? If so, you must not have forgiven anyone.

The OT sacrifices were not for aliens, foreigners, nor strangers. It was for those who already knew God and His commandments and laws. This alone, leaves you, me and all Gentiles out of the sacrificial benefits. The sacrifices reconciled them BACK to God. So, even if the sacrifices were for the reasons you give, IT WAS NOT FOR YOU! Jesus said this in Matthew 15:24, 'But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' Jesus Himself said He was not sent to us Gentiles.

Each man himself had to choose an unblemished animal from his flock or herd to sacrifice. Who did that with Jesus? Did you?

Read Leviticus 4, which speaks of sin offerings. Hardly any of requirements were met in Jesus' death. In one instance, a female lamb was offered (v. 32).

Whoever wrote the book of Hebrews apparently knew very little of OT sacrificial offerings, and certainly not the words of Jesus.

As far as the Messiah, Israel didn't think the Messiah would come to die. They thought He would come to set up and reign in His kingdom. Let's see what Peter said in Matthew 16 -
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

After 3+ years of hearing the teachings and future endeavors of Jesus, Peter knew nothing of the so-called sacrifice of Jesus. And Peter sure did think Jesus was to be offered as a sin offering.

Now I want you to see the very next words of Jesus. Pay attention.

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Did Jesus say He was taking your cross? NO! He told His disciples to take up their own crosses. Why did He say to take up your own cross? He says whoever desires to save his life WILL LOSE IT. You lose your life on your cross. In other words, you take up your own cross and lose your life.

Do you consider yourself a bloody sacrifice if you take up your cross and lose your life? Why would you think this of Jesus' cross?

Click to expand...

God forgiving sin is different than man forgiving sin. God actually absolves a person's sins when He forgives them. These sins can be forgiven because a payment was made so as to answer for these crimes. It is sort of like if a criminal does evil and is locked up in a prison. The justice department is not going to let him go free because they are not merciful people. If they did that, then criminals could get away with whatever evil they liked then. There would be no punishment or payment for their sin. Yet, Jesus died in our place for our sins so as to set the captives free (i.e. those who are truly sorrowful over what they have done and are desiring a fresh new start).

As for focusing a laser beam on certain points in Scripture and yet ignoring other verses that DO talk about how Jesus is our sin offering: I do not feel it will help you if I were to requote those verses for you again. You are simply seeing what you want to see.

As for the Gentiles in the OT: They could be circumcised and become a Jew and then partake in the Law with them.

Side Note:

Also, if you deny the blood of Jesus Christ for your salvation, then you are denying Jesus Himself. This is very serious. Therefore, I would like for you to give me a numbered list of reasons (that is straight to the point) as to what you think the sacrifice and resurrection actually does for the believer if it does not actually save them in any way.


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brotherjerry said:

Wow Jason.

So much either incorrect or poorly stated.
The crucifixion of Christ paid the blood penalty for all sin. As I said, no longer do people have to shed blood in order to atone for their sins. No sacrifice could be as perfect as Christ. What this means is that when you go over the speed limit you no longer have to perform a blood sacrifice in order to receive forgiveness. You no longer have to make an offering of blood for atonement. As I said and as the Bible says. Christ was the propitiation for sin.
Romans 3:24-26 "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
1 John 2:2 "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
1 John 4:10 "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

So yes. Jesus did pay the penalty of our sins, all of them past, present, and future. Do not confuse the propitiation of sins with the forgiveness of sins, or with repentance. These are all different things. And you woudl be wise to ensure you remember that, otherwise all sorts of terrible doctrines can arise.

Click to expand...

I believe Christ died for the sins of the entire world. A payment was made for all sin but that does not mean every person's debt was personally canceled out in that moment (Unless you are a Universalist). Anyways, when a person accepts Jesus, they are not forgiven of future sin. That would be just as bad as denying the blood of Jesus in how it cleanses us of sin because it still makes an allowance for sin while under grace (Whether you believe you can sin all the time and be saved or whether you believe you can die in one or two unrepenant sins and still make it into God's Kingdom). It would be insulting what Christ has done for us because one is not actually seeking any kind of forgiveness with God but they are just trying to justify remaining in their sins still (with the false idea that they are saved still). Belief is the name of the game and there is not any true repentance or a walk with God in holiness (Which is how one gets the blood to cleanse them of all their sin).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).


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BTW ~ Do folks here think I am not appalled and made sick to my stomach by certain individual's who deny how Christ's blood saves us and or by others who deny that sin on some level cannot separate them from God?


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