You don't believe in Pascal's wager

Nihilist Virus said:

I'm only addressing this paragraph as you are off topic until you get here.

I think it would be foolish and arrogant to suggest that one knows for 100% certainty that Jesus is content with your decision to own things far and away above your bare necessity (TV, golf clubs, etc) while children are starving to death. I'm an atheist, yet I don't claim to know for 100% certainty that God doesn't exist. In fact, that is the whole point behind the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You, on the other hand, seem to know the entire mind of God, or at least you seem to think you know God's mind well enough to be 100% confident that he will not tell you to depart from him, since you never knew him.

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I can be 100% certain about Gods salvation because His promise is certain, His credibility absolute and His presence is real. But I agree you cannot be 100% certain of your position because it is defined by the absence of something you do not know and have not experienced.

Someone who knows what a real banknote looks like can spot a forgery. Someone who has only had experience of forgeries cannot say what the genuine article looks like. So the 2 positions are not equivalent.

Scriptures define no necessity of the renunciation of all worldly possessions in all circumstances and salvation is not conditional on this. If you knew the Christian position as it really was then you would understand that Pascals wager is really only about salvation and that therefore the entire risk of it is bourne by the atheist who does not choose God.

Nihilist Virus said:

1. The Christian faith is formulated from what Jesus said

2. Jesus said that it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven

3. You own or have access to a computer

4. You are wealthy

5. Camels cannot pass through the eye of a needle

6. You will not enter heaven

7. You are going to hell

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What did he mean by rich man? Who is rich compared to the Creator and Sustainer and Sovereign Lord of all things?

Parable of the Talents. Matthew 25:

29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

jason_delisle said:

Well, why don't you tell us why you haven't given up all your possessions? You know...just in case.

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Or torn out the heart of a living sacrifice? You know, just in case.

Nihilist Virus said:

1. The Christian faith is formulated from what Jesus said

2. Jesus said that it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven

3. You own or have access to a computer

4. You are wealthy

5. Camels cannot pass through the eye of a needle

6. You will not enter heaven

7. You are going to hell

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That is a distorted view on scripture. The most likely explanation is that Jesus was using hyperbole, a figure of speech that exaggerates for emphasis. Jesus used this technique at other times, referring to a “plank” in one’s eye (Matthew 7:3-5) and swallowing a camel (Matthew 23:24).

Jesus’ message is clear—it is impossible for anyone to be saved on his own merits. Since wealth was seen as proof of God’s approval, it was commonly taught by the rabbis that rich people were blessed by God and were, therefore, the most likely candidates for heaven. Jesus destroyed that notion, and along with it, the idea that anyone can earn eternal life. The disciples had the appropriate response to this startling statement. They were utterly amazed and asked, “Who then can be saved?” in the next verse. If the wealthy among them, which included the super-spiritual Pharisees and scribes, were unworthy of heaven, what hope was there for a poor man?

Jesus’ answer is the basis of the gospel: "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God" (Matthew 19:26). Men are saved through God’s gifts of grace, mercy, and faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). Nothing we do earns salvation for us. It is the poor in spirit who inherit the kingdom of God (Matthew 5:3), those who recognize their spiritual poverty and their utter inability to do anything to justify themselves to a holy God. The rich man so often is blind to his spiritual poverty because he is proud of his accomplishments and has contented himself with his wealth. He is as likely to humble himself before God as a camel is to crawl through the eye of a needle.

Chris B said:

Or torn out the heart of a living sacrifice? You know, just in case.

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Sure, why not?

jason_delisle said:

That is a distorted view on scripture.

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Yes. Sorry, my fellow atheist but I agree with this.

Jesus’ message is clear—it is impossible for anyone to be saved on his own merits. Since wealth was seen as proof of God’s approval... ...The disciples had the appropriate response to this startling statement...“Who then can be saved?”

Jesus’ answer is the basis of the gospel: "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God"

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This

There are plenty of passages elsewhere about the dangers of riches, but that is not the point here.
Context and culture are key.
(many Christians get this passage wrong, too, missing that.)

Chris

Whenever someone presents me with Pascal's Wager, I like to counter with Smith's Wager.

http://freeinquiryforum.com/2011/06/28/smiths-wager/

There are only four possibilities, as follows:

1) There is no god. The atheist is correct, and consequently lives a happy, fulfilling life free of mindless dogma and emotional tyranny.

2) The second possibility is the god of deism, who was said to have created the universe and then left it to run on its own. There is nothing to fear from such a god; he or she is impersonal and does not reward or punish us.

3) This third possibility is a god that is concerned with humanity. He is a fair and just god. Such a god, in his infinite goodness would never punish anyone for honest errors of reason, assuming of course that there is no moral turpitude involved. Here again we have no reason to fear such a god. In fact, if our reason is what separates us from the animals, then not to use it might be construed as the gravest of “sins.” If anyone is in danger of punishment here, it is the theist, and not the atheist.

4) The last possibility concerns an unjust god. Unconcerned with justice, he will burn us whether our mistakes are honest or not. <snip>

Nihilist Virus said:

I'm only addressing this paragraph as you are off topic until you get here.

I think it would be foolish and arrogant to suggest that one knows for 100% certainty that Jesus is content with your decision to own things far and away above your bare necessity (TV, golf clubs, etc) while children are starving to death. I'm an atheist, yet I don't claim to know for 100% certainty that God doesn't exist. In fact, that is the whole point behind the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You, on the other hand, seem to know the entire mind of God, or at least you seem to think you know God's mind well enough to be 100% confident that he will not tell you to depart from him, since you never knew him.

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Where does it get you to call a person foolish and arrogant to suggest that one knows for 100% certainty that Jesus is content with their decision to own things far and away above your bare necessity (TV, golf clubs, etc) while children are starving to death?

Do you understand my question? Where does it get you, even if you get this person to confess that he knows 100% or some percentage below 100% of these things? I would like to know where?

Silly statement to say anyone knows the entire mind of God or enough of His mind to be 100% confident that he will not tell you to depart from him, since you never knew Him.

You are not a true atheist since you don't know for 100% certainty that God doesn't exist. In fact there are no true atheists. You should change your profile to agnostic rather than atheist.

Grizzly said:

Whenever someone presents me with Pascal's Wager, I like to counter with Smith's Wager.

http://freeinquiryforum.com/2011/06/28/smiths-wager/

There are only four possibilities, as follows:

1) There is no god. The atheist is correct, and consequently lives a happy, fulfilling life free of mindless dogma and emotional tyranny.

2) The second possibility is the god of deism, who was said to have created the universe and then left it to run on its own. There is nothing to fear from such a god; he or she is impersonal and does not reward or punish us.

3) This third possibility is a god that is concerned with humanity. He is a fair and just god. Such a god, in his infinite goodness would never punish anyone for honest errors of reason, assuming of course that there is no moral turpitude involved. Here again we have no reason to fear such a god. In fact, if our reason is what separates us from the animals, then not to use it might be construed as the gravest of “sins.” If anyone is in danger of punishment here, it is the theist, and not the atheist.

4) The last possibility concerns an unjust god. Unconcerned with justice, he will burn us whether our mistakes are honest or not. <snip>

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Anyone that can actually write on their profile right under their nickname that they are an "Enemy of Christmas" has such a completely distorted world view, that you break your own happy go lucky definition of athiest, who lives a happy, fulfilling life free of mindless dogma and emotional tyranny. Talk about emotional tyranny, you don't just hate Christmas, you are an enemy of Christmas. I hope I don't live near you, because someday, you may boil over and start killing people for having such a happy time at Christmas. Talk about emotional tyranny.

Take care of yourself, I hope I am wrong.

Peter1000 said:

Anyone that can actually write on their profile right under their nickname that they are an "Enemy of Christmas" has such a completely distorted world view, that you break your own happy go lucky definition of athiest, who lives a happy, fulfilling life free of mindless dogma and emotional tyranny. Talk about emotional tyranny, you don't just hate Christmas, you are an enemy of Christmas. I hope I don't live near you, because someday, you may boil over and start killing people for having such a happy time at Christmas. Talk about emotional tyranny.

Take care of yourself, I hope I am wrong.

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Hi Peter1000,

I am heartened by your acknowledgement that you could be wrong about me! The "Enemy of Christmas" profile statement comes from my participation in the American Politics section of this forum. Every year in Fox Newsland, atheists get accused of conducting a "War on Christmas". After years of trying to arguing that we were doing no such thing, we just decided to pretend we were. It made the annual "Fake War on Christmas" threads more entertaining.

In real life I actually enjoy Christmas and the whole holiday season.

Cheers!

Peter1000 said:

You are not a true atheist since you don't know for 100% certainty that God doesn't exist. In fact there are no true atheists. You should change your profile to agnostic rather than atheist.

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A-theism simply means without a belief in God. It's a lack of belief, not necessarily a positive assertion that God(s) doesn't exist.

Grizzly said:

Hi Peter1000,

I am heartened by your acknowledgement that you could be wrong about me! The "Enemy of Christmas" profile statement comes from my participation in the American Politics section of this forum. Every year in Fox Newsland, atheists get accused of conducting a "War on Christmas". After years of trying to arguing that we were doing no such thing, we just decided to pretend we were. It made the annual "Fake War on Christmas" threads more entertaining.

In real life I actually enjoy Christmas and the whole holiday season.

Cheers!

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You have made my day, thanks for letting us know that. Now just work on the atheist identifier and you will start on the path to angelic status. Good luck with that.