When you read the book of Job the devil had to ask permission to harm Job or to take away from him. So whatever was happening to him was of Gods will. So are we supposed to try to go into prayer about our trials? If it is God will that we be tested by the devil am I praying for nothing. 1 john 5:14-15. Does he hear me if it is against his will? I struggle with prayer and this makes me feel like I am kicking at the goads. If Gods ways are higher than mine and he knows what I need Why do I need to pray? I get very confused by this.
Question on prayer and Gods will.
- Thread starter BibleReader1985
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Job 1:5 KJV
(5) And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
Job 3:25-26 KJV
(25) For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
(26) I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.
by the time the devil came to God to talk about Job, Job had already yielded to the devil through fear - God would not reverse Himself in giving Job free will by overriding Job's decision to fear, but He did limit what the devil could do to Job - it was NOT God's will that Job be tested and afflicted by the devil, nor did God give the devil permission to afflict Job; God acknowledged to the devil that JOB had given the devil the right to afflict Job - but out of mercy, God limited what the devil could do to Job!
Jas 1:13-14 KJV
(13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
(14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
what we are to ask for is wisdom - God's leading - God has already given us everything else:
2Pe 1:1-4 KJV
(1) Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
(2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
(3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
(4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
too often people ask God to do what He told US to do:
Mar 11:22-24 KJV
(22) And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
(23) For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
(24) Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
if you're speaking to God about you mountain hoping that He will move it, then you're not speaking to your mountain about God, and your prayer is not in faith; if you're waiting to receive the 'things' you pray for until you see them in your possession, you do not believe you have them when you pray.
this will help:
http://moorelife.org/listseries.php?xml=rss/IGiveYouAuthority.xml
http://www.awmi.net/audio/audio-teachings/#/awm_1045a_spiritual.mp3
http://www.awmi.net/audio/audio-teachings/#/awm_1042a_hypocrites.mp3
(5) And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
Job 3:25-26 KJV
(25) For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
(26) I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.
by the time the devil came to God to talk about Job, Job had already yielded to the devil through fear - God would not reverse Himself in giving Job free will by overriding Job's decision to fear, but He did limit what the devil could do to Job - it was NOT God's will that Job be tested and afflicted by the devil, nor did God give the devil permission to afflict Job; God acknowledged to the devil that JOB had given the devil the right to afflict Job - but out of mercy, God limited what the devil could do to Job!
Jas 1:13-14 KJV
(13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
(14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
what we are to ask for is wisdom - God's leading - God has already given us everything else:
2Pe 1:1-4 KJV
(1) Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
(2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
(3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
(4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
too often people ask God to do what He told US to do:
Mar 11:22-24 KJV
(22) And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
(23) For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
(24) Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
if you're speaking to God about you mountain hoping that He will move it, then you're not speaking to your mountain about God, and your prayer is not in faith; if you're waiting to receive the 'things' you pray for until you see them in your possession, you do not believe you have them when you pray.
this will help:
http://moorelife.org/listseries.php?xml=rss/IGiveYouAuthority.xml
http://www.awmi.net/audio/audio-teachings/#/awm_1045a_spiritual.mp3
http://www.awmi.net/audio/audio-teachings/#/awm_1042a_hypocrites.mp3
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Although God knows what we need, before we ask him, he has also commanded us to ask from him. Jesus said 'ask and you will receive'. Also, in the Epistle of James it says that we do not have, because we do not ask. So, obviously, God wants us to ask him for what we need, even if he knows beforehand, what we need.
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ValleyGal
Well-Known Member
I disagree that Satan was given permission because of Job's fear. Job 1 says that he was an upright and blameless man, and God had put a hedge of protection around him. Instead, reading the conversation between God and Satan, it appears that God was proving a point to Satan, that even without the hedge of protection, Job would continue to be upright and blameless.
However, for trials in our own lives, I do not believe that Satan goes up to God and asks permission for letting bad things happen to God's believers. I think we create a lot of our own misery, and some of it comes by chance of living in a fallen world (those situations you were born to, who your parents and family are, and what resources you do and don't have access to - and how we use those resources). I think a lot of our own misery comes from our own choices - even though we may try to make the best decisions possible, they might still not be the "least miserable" option.
God wants us to pray because he loves it that we can turn to him with our fears, anxieties, upsets, joys, sorrows, excitements, plans, desires.... he created us for relationship, and relationship is deepened by talking with those you are in relationship with. So talk away! And be real about it.
Does he hear you if you pray against his will - why would you want to pray against his will! Pray that your will will align with his. Or do you mean something specific, like praying for a specific job> If that's the case, I do not believe that he has that kind of specific will for each person - otherwise we'd all be little more than puppets trying to figure out some secret to knowing what those plans are and wondering whether we were still on the right track. God wills that we come to him and love him and serve him and obey his commands. Then we are in God's will, no matter what our circumstances are, no matter what decisions we make.
However, for trials in our own lives, I do not believe that Satan goes up to God and asks permission for letting bad things happen to God's believers. I think we create a lot of our own misery, and some of it comes by chance of living in a fallen world (those situations you were born to, who your parents and family are, and what resources you do and don't have access to - and how we use those resources). I think a lot of our own misery comes from our own choices - even though we may try to make the best decisions possible, they might still not be the "least miserable" option.
God wants us to pray because he loves it that we can turn to him with our fears, anxieties, upsets, joys, sorrows, excitements, plans, desires.... he created us for relationship, and relationship is deepened by talking with those you are in relationship with. So talk away! And be real about it.
Does he hear you if you pray against his will - why would you want to pray against his will! Pray that your will will align with his. Or do you mean something specific, like praying for a specific job> If that's the case, I do not believe that he has that kind of specific will for each person - otherwise we'd all be little more than puppets trying to figure out some secret to knowing what those plans are and wondering whether we were still on the right track. God wills that we come to him and love him and serve him and obey his commands. Then we are in God's will, no matter what our circumstances are, no matter what decisions we make.
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I don’t think there's a one-size-fits-all-cases solution to the question. Lamentations 3 tells us that God does not afflict willingly. The implication, AIUI, is that He therefore does afflict when He has to, when it is the best way to bring about an expected end. His motivation is never to harm or cause pain, though, it is that we might partake of His holiness and fruitfulness.
Job was perfect and upright in God's sight, but Job was performing according to works. He was living by the letter, making sure to dot every I and cross every T, and lived in fear. Diligence is a good thing, but it took suffering and loss to break Job free and prepare him for a revelation of God's unfathomable greatness. Ironically, God never answered Job's “why” questions. He instead reminded him of the unsearchable depths of His power and wisdom, at which Job realized that everything, even salvation, was of grace and not works. Job was immeasurably elevated to a higher place in God as a result, plus he had his fortunes restored.
So even as He was setting a humiliating precedent against satan, God had Job's wellbeing in mind the whole time. We should keep that in mind during our testing.
That said, we need to seek discernment and wisdom regarding our trials, to ascertain the purposes of God in them. Some trials we should simply flee when possible. It's not wrong to pray for the way out in such cases, and that's probably a good place to start in many cases. But other trials we need to go through. The trick is to know the difference. If you're praying to get out of a trial that God wants you to go through in order for you to learn something and grow, then your prayers will need adjustment. In Acts 4, for instance, the disciples didn't pray to escape persecution, but that God would answer the persecution with increased signs and wonders leading to salvations. The prayer was right-on and in response God shook the house in affirmation. In such cases we might pray for strength, and for God's purposes to be achieved, rather than for premature escape.
Accordingly, wisdom is almost always a good thing to pray for. James 3 describes the wisdom of God, how it is pure, peaceful, gentle, open to reason. The peace that passes understanding is one good way to discern God's will when you are confused.
Job was perfect and upright in God's sight, but Job was performing according to works. He was living by the letter, making sure to dot every I and cross every T, and lived in fear. Diligence is a good thing, but it took suffering and loss to break Job free and prepare him for a revelation of God's unfathomable greatness. Ironically, God never answered Job's “why” questions. He instead reminded him of the unsearchable depths of His power and wisdom, at which Job realized that everything, even salvation, was of grace and not works. Job was immeasurably elevated to a higher place in God as a result, plus he had his fortunes restored.
So even as He was setting a humiliating precedent against satan, God had Job's wellbeing in mind the whole time. We should keep that in mind during our testing.
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. -Jas 1:2-5
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. -Jas 1:2-5
That said, we need to seek discernment and wisdom regarding our trials, to ascertain the purposes of God in them. Some trials we should simply flee when possible. It's not wrong to pray for the way out in such cases, and that's probably a good place to start in many cases. But other trials we need to go through. The trick is to know the difference. If you're praying to get out of a trial that God wants you to go through in order for you to learn something and grow, then your prayers will need adjustment. In Acts 4, for instance, the disciples didn't pray to escape persecution, but that God would answer the persecution with increased signs and wonders leading to salvations. The prayer was right-on and in response God shook the house in affirmation. In such cases we might pray for strength, and for God's purposes to be achieved, rather than for premature escape.
Accordingly, wisdom is almost always a good thing to pray for. James 3 describes the wisdom of God, how it is pure, peaceful, gentle, open to reason. The peace that passes understanding is one good way to discern God's will when you are confused.
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the advice forum is not for debate, but since this applies (at least indirectly) to BibleReader1985's question about prayer and God's will, i think it's appropriate to answer you here
Joh 16:12-33 KJV
(12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(16) A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
(17) Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
(18) They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
(19) Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
(20) Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
(21) A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
(22) And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
(23) And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
(24) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
(25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
(26) At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
(27) For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
(28) I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
(29) His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
(30) Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
(31) Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
(32) Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
(33) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
read verses 23 and 24 in context - in verses 17-19, the disciples didn't understand Jesus' statement about going to the Father, but were reluctant to ask Him about this - He explains that after His resurrection, they will not ask Him what He means, because He will no longer speak in 'proverbs' or parables - the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit) would teach them (verse 13) - the subject is wisdom, not things we need in this life
Jas 4:1-4 KJV
(1) From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
(2) Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
(3) Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
(4) Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
the book of James is a continuous letter; in order to understand the context of James 4:2, you must go back to James 1:5:
Jas 1:5-6 KJV
(5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
(6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
the subject of James' letter is wisdom
James said that they 'kill', they 'fight and war' - the Israelites of that day were trying to re-establish the physical Old Testament Kingdom by warring against the Romans (they weren't killing each other to get the things they needed); they weren't focused on establishing the New Testament Kingdom that Jesus came to establish:
Joh 18:33-36 KJV
(33) Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
(34) Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
(35) Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
(36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
they could not establish the physical ('of this world') kingdom because they were asking God for this in error - they needed wisdom, not a physical kingdom - the subject is still wisdom, not the things they needed in this life
Mat 6:27-34 KJV
(27) Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
(28) And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
(29) And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
(30) Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
(31) Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
(32) (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek ; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
(33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
(34) Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
remember that this is before Jesus resurrection; no one was reborn in Christ at this time - all were either heathens or more likely Israelite under the Old Testament law; these people had to ask God for everything, as they could not qualify for anything under the law - we qualify for everything as reborn believers who fulfill the perfection required by the law through faith in Jesus
2Pe 1:1-4 KJV
(1) Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
(2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
(3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
(4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
this plainly says that God has already given us all things that we need, and we receive those things 'through knowledge of Him' (wisdom); and that by His exceedingly great and precious promises we are partakers (faith)
Mat 7:1-12 KJV
(1) Judge not, that ye be not judged.
(2) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
(3) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
(4) Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
(5) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
(6) Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
(7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
(8) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
(9) Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
(10) Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
(11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
(12) Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
you have to go all the way back to Mat 4:25 to see who Jesus is talking to here:
Mat 4:25 KJV
(25) And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.
again, remember that this is before Jesus resurrection; no one was reborn in Christ at this time - all were either heathens or more likely Israelite under the Old Testament law; these people had to ask God for everything, as they could not qualify for anything under the law - we qualify for everything as reborn believers who fulfill the perfection required by the law through faith in Jesus.
there is no command to reborn believers to ask for things we need in this life, because God has already given us all these things - we are commanded to ask for wisdom - direction, leading from God - in order to intersect with those things that He has already given to us
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again, this is the advice forum, where debate is not allowed; but to clarify my post, look closely at the scripture you refer to:
Job 1:1-5 KJV
(1) There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
(2) And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.
(3) His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
(4) And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
(5) And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
Job was afraid that his children were sinning against God, so much so that he continuously sacrificed to atone for their sins - here is where Job's fear (faith in the devil's ability to steal kill and destroy) is first revealed.
Job 1:9-12 KJV
(9) Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
(10) Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
(11) But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
(12) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
notice that it was satan, not God that said that God had put a hedge about Job - God does not acknowledge this - and satan is of course a liar
Job 1:12 KJV
(12) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
God acknowledged that Job had yielded to satan through fear, thus allowing satan to afflict him by moving out of God's protection through fear of the devil - this doesn't say that God gave satan permission to afflict Job - on the contrary, God limited what satan could do to Job in spite of Job yielding to satan through fear
Job 2:3 KJV
(3) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
would God allow satan to destroy Job without cause? can satan actually move God to do something? of course not - if you study the word 'movedst', you'll see that it refers to satan trying to trick God into destroying Job without cause; which of course never happened and never will happen
Job 2:4-6 KJV
(4) And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
(5) But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
(6) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
again, God acknowledged that Job had yielded to satan through fear, thus allowing satan to afflict him by moving out of God's protection through fear of the devil - this doesn't say that God gave satan permission to afflict Job - on the contrary, God limited what satan could do to Job in spite of Job yielding to satan through fear.
God never gave satan permission to afflict anyone - Adam yielded to satan and was then afflicted by him; Job was no different, and neither is anyone else
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This actually makes sense. I honestly had not read Job in a long time. I think that I maybe heard in a sermon that the Devil had to ask God for permission so that stuck in my mind. I didn't realize the fear was a gateway for the devil. Also I didn't mean that I would deliberately pray against Gods will. Just that I would pray for something and it wouldn't be in His will. I don't know what he knows. Wisdom Prayer makes complete sense. I need to read more bible. Thanks for that help!
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i used to think that too, also because i'd heard it preached - but then one day someone challenged me to prove that God had given the devil permission to afflict Job, and when i went to the word, i couldn't find it. since that time i've learned to doubt anything i think i believe aboutGod that i can't find scripture for, no matter how long i've believed it, or how many people tell me it's true who also don't know scripture to base their belief on
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This is not the case. God did explcitly provide permission for the devil to afflict Job. I'm not sure how you had difficulty finding evidence for this fact, as it is stated in an overt way in the following Scriptures:
"But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. (Job 1:11-12)
Later, Jesus Himself explicitly indicates that Satan asks for permission to harm believers (which also interestingly indicates experience with receiving permission for such requests) in Luke 22:31-32: "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
Why would Jesus need to pray for the strength of Simon/Peter if God would not provide permission for Satan to make such an attempt? Fear is a gateway for the devil, but only one such gateway. God does use Satan as a means for an ultimately good end, though Satan is obviously a creature endowed with free will who is restrained by God. Anything that concurrently possesses free will with limitations of resources or power to effectuate that will must by it's very nature be required to ask permission to engage in certain things. This is Scripturally sound and even logically obvious.
"But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. (Job 1:11-12)
Later, Jesus Himself explicitly indicates that Satan asks for permission to harm believers (which also interestingly indicates experience with receiving permission for such requests) in Luke 22:31-32: "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
Why would Jesus need to pray for the strength of Simon/Peter if God would not provide permission for Satan to make such an attempt? Fear is a gateway for the devil, but only one such gateway. God does use Satan as a means for an ultimately good end, though Satan is obviously a creature endowed with free will who is restrained by God. Anything that concurrently possesses free will with limitations of resources or power to effectuate that will must by it's very nature be required to ask permission to engage in certain things. This is Scripturally sound and even logically obvious.
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interesting that your translation is so different from the KJV on Job 1:11-12, but i still don't see how even the translation you use can be interpreted as God giving satan permission to afflict Job - but you are free to believe what you choose
interesting that Jesus didn't pray that the Father would simply deny satan's request, but instead prayed that Peter's faith would not fail, as if Peter's faith was the deciding factor
interesting that you make satan God's servant, and attribute evil to the Lord in so doing; but again, you are free to believe as you choose - but when you face great sickness or disease, your choice may not seem so correct
interesting that Jesus didn't pray that the Father would simply deny satan's request, but instead prayed that Peter's faith would not fail, as if Peter's faith was the deciding factor
interesting that you make satan God's servant, and attribute evil to the Lord in so doing; but again, you are free to believe as you choose - but when you face great sickness or disease, your choice may not seem so correct
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Biblereader1985, you asks "Does he hear me if it is against his will?" According to James 4:3, if we asks but He doesn't answer, we've asks amiss. But we are to "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men" (I Tim 2:1) and pray for His will to be done (The Lord's prayer).
"For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that." James 4:15
"For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that." James 4:15
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Even more interesting is how you completely distort what the implications of certain arguments (derived directly from Scripture) actually are.
Notice how God gave the parameters of Satan's action against Job (what the devil was and was not allowed to do), which constitutes a lesser part to the more overtly obvious case of God providing permission for Satan to attack Job. It is also interesting to note that God's permission towards Satan against what he could assault (first Job's belongings, then himself) advanced, despite Job demonstrating no lack of faith, presence of fear or sin on his part (Job 1:22). You also seemed to miss the part that it was God Job feared, not Satan (it's literally in the first verse): "...This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil." (Job 1:1) No where does it indicate a fear of the devil, just of God and His wrath against Job or his sons in they were to sin and curse God.
Very interestingly in this second part of your response is that you acknowledge that God did indeed give permission for Satan's attempt, prompting Jesus' prayer. Obviously Peter's faith is the deciding factor in how Satan's attack will affect him. That goes for all of us. Satan may be given permission to do many things (such as tempting Jesus in the desert, which the Holy Spirit was said to have lead Jesus directly into [Luke 4:1-2]) but it is our response to whatever assault it may be on our person that will determine the affect it has. If we submit to God, we will succeed; if we deny Him, we will fail. No surprise nor argument there.
Lastly, acknowledging that God uses Satan for ultimately good purposes is entirely and exclusively derived from the Scriptures, such as the one mentioned just above about Jesus being tempted in the desert. This is not attributing evil to God, but simply acknowledging that "we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28)." God having perfect knowledge, including foreknowledge, would know that in some cases leading us into situations of trials and suffering will actually refine our character and be in some cases necessary for us to develop as followers of Christ. I'd be interested in seeing if you believe that God, in His foreknowledge, did not use the times and people surrounding the events of Christ's crucifixion to effectuate His plan of salvation, which required Christ's death. God is not forcing, nor encouraging people to engage in evil; rather, God is using His foreknowledge and intimate knowledge of each human person (and non-human persons in the case of demons) to effectuate an ultimately good end, which is facilitating the circumstances that would draw the largest number of souls freely to Himself.
I have no idea where you got your Scriptural interpretations from, but they are especially admonishable because they completely evade the obvious implications and even explicit conveyance of the biblical truth.
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Thank you! I actually was reading Job and was wondering about How the fear of God was a sin. I was actually going to post and before I could someone already answered! Thank you!
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*Prayer....
The Lord tells us to pray, taught the outline on how to
pray...Matthew 6:5-15
Jesus, prayed often...as we are instructed to, follow Him...
we are too, should pray and strive live out the faith like He did.
Philippians 4:6-7
"Don't worry about anything, but in all your prayers ask
God for what you need, always asking Him with a thankful heart.
And God's peace, which is far beyond human understanding, will keep your hearts and minds safe in union with Christ Jesus."
Matthew 26:41
"Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
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you're wasting your time arguing with me, but not mine; because i don't care what you think - i posted to help the original poster, but you seem to be here as the scripture police instead - however i don't recognize your authority as such. the Bible clearly defines what 'the fear of the Lord' is, and it has nothing to do with being afraid of God - look to the scripture instead of men's traditions and you'll find it
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Except I am not expressing my opinions...
I presented arguments by letting Scripture interpret Scripture. Now to add to your demonstrably incorrect position, you further demonstrate your inability to properly interpret text by arguing against a point I never made. I didn't even address the distinctions between kinds of fear, but who was feared; that was a vital point in my response to help the OP understand, which you confuse for what is plausibly pride's sake. This is why you don't develop emotional attachments to positions that must be affirmed by exegesis. The Scripture speaks for itself, and it doesn't support your flimsy conclusion.
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Pro 8:13 KJV
(13) The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
The fear of the LORD >>>>> IS <<<<< to hate evil
Psa 34:11-14 KJV
(11) Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.
(12) What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?
(13) Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
(14) Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
Psa 111:10 KJV
(10) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Pro 1:7 KJV
(7) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro 2:1-9 KJV
(1) My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
(2) So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
(3) Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
(4) If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
(5) Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
(6) For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
(7) He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
(8) He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
(9) Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.
Pro 9:10 KJV
(10) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Pro 14:26 KJV
(26) In the fear of the LORD is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.
Pro 14:27 KJV
(27) The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
Pro 15:33 KJV
(33) The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.
this is a partial list of scriptures defining 'the fear of the Lord' - where is fear of God in this? show me scripture that interprets these scriptures to mean 'be afraid of God' - only those who reject God need be afraid of Him, as to reject God is to join with His ENEMY (not partner) - the DEVIL (Mat 13:39)
if you are reborn in Christ, and you have set your heart to be led by God, then you are a son of God (Romans 8:14) which makes you a little brother of Jesus; and you are a joint-heir with Christ (Rom 8:16, 17); and all of your sins - past, present, and future sins that you haven't even committed yet - have been paid for by Jesus (1John 2:2); and you have the righteousness of God by faith (2Cor 5:21) - what possible reason could you have to be afraid of God?
1Jn 4:15-18 KJV
(15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
(16) And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
(17) Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
is God telling us to be afraid of Him, while casting fear out of us???
----------------------
"...God uses Satan for ultimately good purposes..." - from your post #14 above
to imply that God would allow, much less use, the devil to afflict reborn believers is to make God a partner in evil with the evil one (the devil) - to make Him an un-just God; it is a dangerous thing to ascribe evil unto God:
Mat 12:22-32 KJV
(22) Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
(23) And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
(24) But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
(25) And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
(26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
(27) And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
(28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(29) Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
(30) He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
(32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Isa 5:20 KJV
(20) Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
if God uses the devil, why did He tell us to 'Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil...' (James 4:7)? if God is using the devil, and we resist the devil, we are resisting God - that's just plain confusion!
1Jn 3:8 KJV
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
is God using the devil while Jesus destroys his works? how does that make any sense?
there can be no fellowship between evil and good - the two are opposites that CAN't cooperate anymore than light can cooperate with darkness - The One will always drive the other out. God is perfect love, and perfect love drives fear out - there's nothing Godly or lovely about being afraid of God - unless you are rejecting Him - and then you have the best of reasons to be afraid of Him, and 'the fear of the Lord' has an entirely different meaning than it does for a reborn believer
(13) The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
The fear of the LORD >>>>> IS <<<<< to hate evil
Psa 34:11-14 KJV
(11) Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.
(12) What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?
(13) Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
(14) Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
Psa 111:10 KJV
(10) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Pro 1:7 KJV
(7) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro 2:1-9 KJV
(1) My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
(2) So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
(3) Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
(4) If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
(5) Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
(6) For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
(7) He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
(8) He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
(9) Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.
Pro 9:10 KJV
(10) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Pro 14:26 KJV
(26) In the fear of the LORD is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.
Pro 14:27 KJV
(27) The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
Pro 15:33 KJV
(33) The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.
this is a partial list of scriptures defining 'the fear of the Lord' - where is fear of God in this? show me scripture that interprets these scriptures to mean 'be afraid of God' - only those who reject God need be afraid of Him, as to reject God is to join with His ENEMY (not partner) - the DEVIL (Mat 13:39)
if you are reborn in Christ, and you have set your heart to be led by God, then you are a son of God (Romans 8:14) which makes you a little brother of Jesus; and you are a joint-heir with Christ (Rom 8:16, 17); and all of your sins - past, present, and future sins that you haven't even committed yet - have been paid for by Jesus (1John 2:2); and you have the righteousness of God by faith (2Cor 5:21) - what possible reason could you have to be afraid of God?
1Jn 4:15-18 KJV
(15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
(16) And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
(17) Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
is God telling us to be afraid of Him, while casting fear out of us???
----------------------
"...God uses Satan for ultimately good purposes..." - from your post #14 above
to imply that God would allow, much less use, the devil to afflict reborn believers is to make God a partner in evil with the evil one (the devil) - to make Him an un-just God; it is a dangerous thing to ascribe evil unto God:
Mat 12:22-32 KJV
(22) Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
(23) And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
(24) But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
(25) And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
(26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
(27) And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
(28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(29) Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
(30) He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
(32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Isa 5:20 KJV
(20) Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
if God uses the devil, why did He tell us to 'Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil...' (James 4:7)? if God is using the devil, and we resist the devil, we are resisting God - that's just plain confusion!
1Jn 3:8 KJV
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
is God using the devil while Jesus destroys his works? how does that make any sense?
there can be no fellowship between evil and good - the two are opposites that CAN't cooperate anymore than light can cooperate with darkness - The One will always drive the other out. God is perfect love, and perfect love drives fear out - there's nothing Godly or lovely about being afraid of God - unless you are rejecting Him - and then you have the best of reasons to be afraid of Him, and 'the fear of the Lord' has an entirely different meaning than it does for a reborn believer
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Are you blind in one eye? Once again you begin by arguing against a point I never made and so are debating a straw-man for more than half of your entire post. I literally just finished saying to you in such a short, explicit post that I wasn't addressing kinds of fear, but who was feared. Let me repeat that: I was not addressing kinds of fear, but who was feared. Even worse is that if you actually thoroughly interacted with material you've read prior to forming opinions on it you would have already known you were attacking a point about fear that I never made. It brings me to serious doubt about your capacity to properly interpret Scripture when you so grossly misinterpret it in your initial response to the OP and then follow-up by adding to my response things I didn't even begin to say. I completely agree that the fear of the LORD is to hate evil, I have never argued against that. I argued against your incorrect view that Job was fearing the devil when he was really in fear of God. You can try to argue against that but that's what the Scripture in Job itself explicitly indicates, contrary to your tradition of men as you would rightly call it that you conform to. Secondly, Job's kind of fear was the hatred of evil, and is actually praised in the very first verse of the very verse chapter, among other verses, when it says: "...This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil." (Job 1:1) Then even God Himself affirms, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”(Job 1:8) You are simply entirely wrong about your interpretation and ascribing the inappropriate kind of fear to Job. But you are right about what proper fear is, I'll give you that.
This is simply to misunderstand the providence of God in His creative decree and perfect foreknowledge of future events and all true counter-factuals (what would be true given a different circumstance). Again, we know from the Scriptures God uses the evil motives of others in the grand scheme of things to accomplish the greatest achievable good in this world and in each individual life. It is actually by their evil plots that God facilitates in His providence the ironic failure-by-success of their plans that were used to create success for the righteous (for example, the apparent success of the Jews against Christ which were actually used to accomplish God's plan of salvation). Perhaps you have forgotten that God also used the Babylonians, among other nations, to punish the Israelites for the purpose of disciplining them in their severe evil to turn the people back to Him (Jeremiah 25:8-14)? This is a perfect display of God's providence. But remember, "He thwarts the plans of the crafty, so that their hands achieve no success. He catches the wise in their craftiness, and the schemes of the wily are swept away (Job 5:12-13)." The wicked are allowed to play their part in God's providential plan for the ultimate good of those who belong to God. After that, they are caught in their own net they prepared for the righteous (Romans 9:21-23). Also, to remind you, Jesus Himself verified that Satan receives permission to be used for God's glory in this way in Luke 4:1-2 and Luke 22:31-32.
Interestingly, you inadvertently reinforce the point that God allows Satan to obstruct believers (again, for their own benefit - James 1:2-3) by quoting this verse of James. It would be a confounding admonishment to say "resist the devil" if the devil was not allowed to be against us believers. This is why I stated that success for us hinges upon submission to God or succumbing to the devil. Again, God uses the plans of the evil and crafty to refine the character of those who belong to Him while catching them in their own craftiness simultaneously. It is an amazing demonstration of the providence of God, and read Jeremiah 25:8-14 again if you need to be reminded how that works.
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