Does God Truly Care About this Earthly Life?

That is very human perspective.Suffering is not just confined to humans.
Animals suffer terribly from things such as predation,disease and hunger.Indeed it seems that God has deliberately designed an animal kingdom in which suffering is an essential ingredient.Right down to things like crows using their barbed tongues to peck the eyes out of sick or dying animals.
I have atheist friends who use these issues to explain why they do not want to believe in a creator or interventionist God.
For them such a being is too horrible to contemplate.A monster.A classic sadistic psychopath.

You might consider that in addressing the concept of God you're not talking about consciousness as most people would typically think of it.

One of the doctrines that I think tends to hit a bit closer to home, albeit often considered somewhat heretical, is the concept of the Ain Soph or the Azoth as Paracelsus put it. You have consciousness in a vast and unmanifest state and the closest approximation to describing this state is a blank piece of paper. The first and least distorted appearance we'd perceptually recognize would be a single point. IMHO that gets a little closer to the right 'feel' of it and in a lot of ways God is both the most personal thing in the universe, as It's what you and every thought you've ever had are made of, but also the least personal simultaneously because all life shares in that heritage.

Fortran said:

First, it is possible that God is not the extremely personally, all-loving being we imagine Him to be.

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No.

Fortran said:

The second possibility is that we, perhaps, are misunderstanding the omnipotence of God.

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No.


All of creation fell with Adam. We die because he chose autonomy over his King. "If you eat of the tree you will surely die". Disease, suffering and death are simply the consequences of the fall. God cares. Yes! For God loved the world in such a way that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Fortran said:

He resorted to sending Jesus to die

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God did not "resort" to sending Jesus. It was planned before the world was even created. It was a trinitarian plan, as well.

thatbrian said:

No.



No.


All of creation fell with Adam. We die because he chose autonomy over his King. "If you eat of the tree you will surely die". Disease, suffering and death are simply the consequences of the fall. God cares. Yes! For God loved the world in such a way that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Click to expand...

That is a classic psychopath response-You made me do this!I did not want to punish you but you made me!
They set up their victims to fail.

Fortran said:

It is plain to see we live in a world with much suffering. This suffering seems rather random - the atheists, Christian, or Buddhist all have chances of developing cancer, losing a loved one, or experiencing any other tragedy. As evidenced in the early church, the Christian is certainly not exempt from earthly suffering. Sure, some suffering may be directly attributed to free will, but this is not the case with natural disaster or disease. It is the old question: if God is all-powerful, and all-loving, why does suffering exist? To me, the only logical answers to this question imply that (just maybe) modern, popular Christianity has largely misunderstood God in one way or another.

(1). First, it is possible that God is not the extremely personally, all-loving being we imagine Him to be. Instead, He is personal and loving in that He provided the sacrifice (Jesus) that made a blissful eternity possible, but, is not really involved in the "physical" areas of this present life. Obviously, one problem with this is that God did (and likely still does) perform miracles. But why are they seemingly random? After all, Jesus did not heal every blind man on earth, nor cleanse all lepers. Is it possible that such healings are more of a sign of God's power than for the purpose of relieving earthly suffering?

(2). The second possibility is that we, perhaps, are misunderstanding the omnipotence of God. For example, can God lie? Could God forgive the sins of man without the sacrifice of Jesus? Can God create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift (a tired question, I know)? Is it possible that, in a way that is beyond our comprehension and perhaps as a factor of another one of His attributes (such as holiness or justice), that God is limited by how He interacts with this physical world (and that is why He resorted to sending Jesus to die)?

I know this is a very old debate, and I certainly do not have the answers, but I am curious what others think. Surely, isn't possible that perhaps many Christians (or at least the average, modern Protestant Christian) are misunderstanding God? If not, how would you explain natural suffering?

I am not trying to argue a point, just trying to get some insight into a difficult subject.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Hi thanks for your post.
I believe the bible says that all the earth is corrupted with suffering because of sin, end of story. God provided Jesus because of His love for us so that He would not have to destroy us, as we deserve. Sorry to state the obvious, it's not God who is on trial here, it's us. http://www.iansideas.com

I think my father may feel similarly: God must not care about the world we live in because if he did then people wouldn't be so miserable. I think the thing I find most interesting is that people believe that they deserve better than this life. I certainly know that I don't. I am the worst of sinners and deserve eternal separation from God, where he gives myself and those around me over to our evil desires. But he chose not to do that. He chose to love us instead. He chose to live a mortal life among us and teach us how we are to live. He chose to save us. From suffering? Well, not in the way most people want. I believe suffering to be all about perspective. If your focus is on this world and this life then things that happen to you that you don't want are going to affect your entire being. But if your focus is God, then everything else seems trivial. Disease and pain may come, but it is nothing compared to Him. I may face evil and hate, but what can it do to me when I know that God has already won? Nothing. It can't do a thing to me. It's all about perspective.

Jesus has saved me not for the next life, but for this one. Because of Him the world can't get me down because I don't love the world. I love Him. And because I love Him I'll love others. And maybe because I love others they'll love Him. And hopefully more and more people will choose Him, and as a result less and less suffering will be felt and there will be more and more of Him.

"In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Fortran said:

It is plain to see we live in a world with much suffering. This suffering seems rather random - the atheists, Christian, or Buddhist all have chances of developing cancer, losing a loved one, or experiencing any other tragedy. As evidenced in the early church, the Christian is certainly not exempt from earthly suffering. Sure, some suffering may be directly attributed to free will, but this is not the case with natural disaster or disease. It is the old question: if God is all-powerful, and all-loving, why does suffering exist? To me, the only logical answers to this question imply that (just maybe) modern, popular Christianity has largely misunderstood God in one way or another.

(1). First, it is possible that God is not the extremely personally, all-loving being we imagine Him to be. Instead, He is personal and loving in that He provided the sacrifice (Jesus) that made a blissful eternity possible, but, is not really involved in the "physical" areas of this present life. Obviously, one problem with this is that God did (and likely still does) perform miracles. But why are they seemingly random? After all, Jesus did not heal every blind man on earth, nor cleanse all lepers. Is it possible that such healings are more of a sign of God's power than for the purpose of relieving earthly suffering?

(2). The second possibility is that we, perhaps, are misunderstanding the omnipotence of God. For example, can God lie? Could God forgive the sins of man without the sacrifice of Jesus? Can God create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift (a tired question, I know)? Is it possible that, in a way that is beyond our comprehension and perhaps as a factor of another one of His attributes (such as holiness or justice), that God is limited by how He interacts with this physical world (and that is why He resorted to sending Jesus to die)?

I know this is a very old debate, and I certainly do not have the answers, but I am curious what others think. Surely, isn't possible that perhaps many Christians (or at least the average, modern Protestant Christian) are misunderstanding God? If not, how would you explain natural suffering?

I am not trying to argue a point, just trying to get some insight into a difficult subject.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

When Adam sinned who did Adam blame?

G-d that is who... it was the woman you gave me....

Today man wallows in sin and his response to the suffering, disease and horrific events is to blame G-d when it is MAN who is responsible and 100% so.

G-d is not a man that he can lie Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Dominion over the Earth was given to man who then by his sin in the garden relinquished that dominion over to devil. With Messiah's death and resurrection sin and death have been defeated but the earth is still itself not restored and that will occur after all prophecy is fulfilled in scripture.

Most of mankind has rejected G-d and his plan to restore mankind and creation as a result, we continue to see an escalation of depravity, violence and destruction. This is the inevitable result when you run from that which is good and chase after that which is evil.

The answers you seek are found in scripture. Who do you think the tree of life in the garden is? Who is the word become flesh that John speaks concerning? WE are told that if we want to understand the end look at the beginning. Scripture says that which has been will be again.

We are plainly told that G-d Does nothing without first revealing it to his prophets. This means if you want to know if your theology is based on solid ground STUDY THE PROPHETS and if the doctrine you hold to be true is NOT found in the OT it is NOT truth.

Amos 3:7 Indeed, the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing His counsel to His servants the prophets.

Adonai Elohim is SHAKING and speaking to his ekklesia declaring "Come out of her my people so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues"

G-d ekklesia is currently in babylon the mystery religion but he is calling them OUT of it. Many will at first refuse because they love more the tickling of the ear and the supposed freedom of being "led by the spirit" while what they are actually doing is what scripture sternly warns us against doing Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.

Today NO ONE talks about resting on Sunday. When I was a young Nothing was open in this country on Sunday. When I was a boy the 10 commandments were to be obeyed.

Today the evangelical church teaches you are free from the law. The OT died with Christ....

This is a gross perversion of the truth and it is leading people away from what our Father in heaven has called is to be a unique people. We are to be holy as our Father in Heaven is holy.

When the light (G-d's people) refuse to walk upright and daily die to the flesh and walk as Messiah walked then we fail to be that light and evil grows and people who are lost laugh and mock and rightly tell us we are no different than those who are atheists.

When the divorce rate among self described born again evangelical christians is HIGHER than the divorce rate among atheists we have failed because we have been seduced by the lie

Fortran said:

(2). The second possibility is that we, perhaps, are misunderstanding the omnipotence of God....

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This is my view - we misunderstand the omnipotence of God. In short, I do not believe that God can "do whatever He wants". For example: in Genesis, God commits to putting human beings in charge of His world. He has to now live within the constraints of that commitment - His previous actions constrain the options available to Him.

I have to think of suffering in a few different classes:

First class - you broke the rules of natural law, anywhere from breaking the laws of gravity to breaking the laws of maintaining good health or good finance; this kind of suffering is the type you can actually learn from and not repeat in the future.

Second class - public; you're in a decadent society that can't hold it down, it's reverting to tribalism in its ethics, everything else is lip service, and you end up dealing with the mess that they created. It's really unfortunate, you may have been part of the problem or you may have been one of the small to sizable minority who was dragged kicking and screaming to have their hand pressed to the hot stove to know what you already knew - that it was hot. About all you can do is help the people who really didn't get it to rebound and understand what their next step is.

Third class - You did everything right, did enough things wrong to have a proper release valve, handled life in proper balance and strove to be your best and then comes a terminal cancer diagnosis at age 35, or something that seems to deliberately mock your best efforts to improve yourself such as the desire to do something like body building being then counter-acted by something like diabetes or a chronic allergic reaction forcing you to a liquid diet to then lose it all.

Fourth class - the unholy coincidence. The guy who slips, falls, lands on a stroller, and gets beaten to death by the father on the spot. Stuff that has no rhyme or reason, it's just moral absurdity playing with society's unthinking reflexes.

There's obviously more - being born in a country where everyone else is staving, having a decent and integrated character but living in North Korea or some other dictatorship where integrity is prohibited, etc. etc..

The human condition isn't pleasant in a lot of cases and at the times and places where it is pleasant its closer to a happy accident perhaps than anything else.

In a lot of situations you can consider that your environment is asserting a sane rule of law and referendum on your behavior and that you will get what you deserve, but there are plenty of times when people will either destroy themselves for lack of natural consequence or people doing their absolute best will not only be smashed like bugs but be forced to watch it in slow motion.

In all of these cases - your theodicy has to be able to handle it, and if it doesn't you need to inquire further. I don't know that there's any belief system that answers these questions in a fully persuasive manner, in fact I think people are best off treating their spiritual self-development by way of whatever faith they choose and their handling of the nature of evil as slightly different matters. Then again that last approach means taking religion as a method to get to know God but not a whole explanation. Some will be up for that, some won't, some will want to throw it all out the window if one jot or tittle doesn't match the reality they see.

I've been from Catholicism to agnosticism, to atheism, back through new age to protestant Christian then back out to hermeticist and then thelemite. If I've learned anything worth sharing its that you're best off not blaming your own wellspring of being for the problems in the world. If you prefer to practice Christianity in this way you may prefer to see the Devil or Satan as a symbol of entropy, purposelessness, nihilism, etc.. Similarly you could see the outer darkness as that which is in a state or more pure entropy and which God's rule of law has not fully encompassed - our particular zone of habitation being somewhat in a gray area under plans to come under increased law as such. Whatever your worldview - just keep in mind that your faith is about your walk with what's best within you and your cultivation of what's best within you. If you attempt to pin the sadism of your surroundings on that divine part of you due to the assumption that it's of a significantly higher power - whether you define it as a personal level of the Lord, HGA, etc.. you'll have nowhere left to turn because you'll have made a 'sky sadist' out of the only thing you could have looked up to. To go reductive materialist and call suffering nothing more than bad weather seems to at least alleviate the universe of responsibility for suffering but even that is a faith-based proposition, and as you see things that can't possibly fit the rubric of reductive materialism you're forced right out of it and back to face these same questions all over again.

I think if we first hold faith that God is innate and omnipresent as a spirit that this necessarily means God is always with us. I don't think he fixates on the minutia of life on earth. Rather I think he knows that he sent his word to the world and he leaves it to the design he placed into his creation to find their way to the destiny they are afforded by his will.

Fortran said:

It is plain to see we live in a world with much suffering. This suffering seems rather random - the atheists, Christian, or Buddhist all have chances of developing cancer, losing a loved one, or experiencing any other tragedy. As evidenced in the early church, the Christian is certainly not exempt from earthly suffering. Sure, some suffering may be directly attributed to free will, but this is not the case with natural disaster or disease. It is the old question: if God is all-powerful, and all-loving, why does suffering exist? To me, the only logical answers to this question imply that (just maybe) modern, popular Christianity has largely misunderstood God in one way or another.

(1). First, it is possible that God is not the extremely personally, all-loving being we imagine Him to be. Instead, He is personal and loving in that He provided the sacrifice (Jesus) that made a blissful eternity possible, but, is not really involved in the "physical" areas of this present life. Obviously, one problem with this is that God did (and likely still does) perform miracles. But why are they seemingly random? After all, Jesus did not heal every blind man on earth, nor cleanse all lepers. Is it possible that such healings are more of a sign of God's power than for the purpose of relieving earthly suffering?

(2). The second possibility is that we, perhaps, are misunderstanding the omnipotence of God. For example, can God lie? Could God forgive the sins of man without the sacrifice of Jesus? Can God create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift (a tired question, I know)? Is it possible that, in a way that is beyond our comprehension and perhaps as a factor of another one of His attributes (such as holiness or justice), that God is limited by how He interacts with this physical world (and that is why He resorted to sending Jesus to die)?

I know this is a very old debate, and I certainly do not have the answers, but I am curious what others think. Surely, isn't possible that perhaps many Christians (or at least the average, modern Protestant Christian) are misunderstanding God? If not, how would you explain natural suffering?

I am not trying to argue a point, just trying to get some insight into a difficult subject.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Your points are all well taken. the theodicy question remains what might be the Achilies heel of Christian tradition. For if the Promise of the Incarnation was to offer a resolution to both suffering and evil, that has self evidently not happened by any teaching which calls itself 'Christian'. So I see three options. 1) There is no God, 2) that religious teaching is wholly in error. 3) in spite of religious claims to the contrary, true religion has yet to begin in the sense that only when God reveals the moral insight necessary to resolve the theodicy question can we know He is both real and active in our world. For myself, I have opted for the third option. The hard part is in the waiting!

thatbrian said:

No.



No.


All of creation fell with Adam. We die because he chose autonomy over his King. "If you eat of the tree you will surely die". Disease, suffering and death are simply the consequences of the fall. God cares. Yes! For God loved the world in such a way that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Click to expand...

Very well said post! I heartily agree!

Fortran said:

It is plain to see we live in a world with much suffering. This suffering seems rather random - ...

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I have understood that suffering is because people wanted to know evil. That is the reason why we were expelled from paradise to this world. And here we can really see what evil means, godless life. Without God, all evil things come possible, and with God, everything is good. So this “life” is really just a lesson where people get chance to become righteous and come back to God.

And in all suffering I think it would be good to remember this:

… don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they don't sow, they don't reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? Don't seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Matt. 10:28-31

Secretsis said:

I think my father may feel similarly: God must not care about the world we live in because if he did then people wouldn't be so miserable. I think the thing I find most interesting is that people believe that they deserve better than this life. I certainly know that I don't. I am the worst of sinners and deserve eternal separation from God, where he gives myself and those around me over to our evil desires. But he chose not to do that. He chose to love us instead. He chose to live a mortal life among us and teach us how we are to live. He chose to save us. From suffering? Well, not in the way most people want. I believe suffering to be all about perspective. If your focus is on this world and this life then things that happen to you that you don't want are going to affect your entire being. But if your focus is God, then everything else seems trivial. Disease and pain may come, but it is nothing compared to Him. I may face evil and hate, but what can it do to me when I know that God has already won? Nothing. It can't do a thing to me. It's all about perspective.

Jesus has saved me not for the next life, but for this one. Because of Him the world can't get me down because I don't love the world. I love Him. And because I love Him I'll love others. And maybe because I love others they'll love Him. And hopefully more and more people will choose Him, and as a result less and less suffering will be felt and there will be more and more of Him.

"In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33

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Very well said and a nice response.

Ian16 said:

Hi thanks for your post.
I believe the bible says that all the earth is corrupted with suffering because of sin, end of story. God provided Jesus because of His love for us so that He would not have to destroy us, as we deserve. Sorry to state the obvious, it's not God who is on trial here, it's us. http://www.iansideas.com

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Welcome to CF and your post is a good one!

Secretsis said:

I think my father may feel similarly: God must not care about the world we live in because if he did then people wouldn't be so miserable. I think the thing I find most interesting is that people believe that they deserve better than this life. I certainly know that I don't. I am the worst of sinners and deserve eternal separation from God, where he gives myself and those around me over to our evil desires. But he chose not to do that. He chose to love us instead. He chose to live a mortal life among us and teach us how we are to live. He chose to save us. From suffering? Well, not in the way most people want. I believe suffering to be all about perspective. If your focus is on this world and this life then things that happen to you that you don't want are going to affect your entire being. But if your focus is God, then everything else seems trivial. Disease and pain may come, but it is nothing compared to Him. I may face evil and hate, but what can it do to me when I know that God has already won? Nothing. It can't do a thing to me. It's all about perspective.

Jesus has saved me not for the next life, but for this one. Because of Him the world can't get me down because I don't love the world. I love Him. And because I love Him I'll love others. And maybe because I love others they'll love Him. And hopefully more and more people will choose Him, and as a result less and less suffering will be felt and there will be more and more of Him.

"In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33

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I see this is your first post, welcome to CF. Good post!

klatu said:

So I see three options. 1) There is no God, 2) that religious teaching is wholly in error. 3) in spite of religious claims to the contrary, true religion has yet to begin in the sense that only when God reveals the moral insight necessary to resolve the theodicy question can we know He is both real and active in our world.

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I am not sure I see the difference between (2) and (3) - they seem to capture the same explanation, but from different perspectives.

Either way, I am inclined to believe agree with you (I think). I hope that the problem is that we do not really fully understand something fundamental about the evolving tale of redemption presented in the Bible. I suggest that there is precedent for this kind of situation: Paul spent a long time trying to make sense of how the story of Jesus could constitute a legitimate "next step" (and indeed the very climax as Paul argues) in the ongoing story of God's covenant with Israel. The interesting thing about this in relation to the topic of this thread is that the story of Jesus comprises a very surprising, yet ultimately comprehensible, climax to the Old Testament narrative: In the same way, I hope that we will be "surprised" by a solution to this theodicy question that will, in hindsight seem comprehensible within the orthodox Christian tradition.

BukiRob said:

When Adam sinned who did Adam blame?

G-d that is who... it was the woman you gave me....

Today man wallows in sin and his response to the suffering, disease and horrific events is to blame G-d when it is MAN who is responsible and 100% so.

G-d is not a man that he can lie Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Dominion over the Earth was given to man who then by his sin in the garden relinquished that dominion over to devil. With Messiah's death and resurrection sin and death have been defeated but the earth is still itself not restored and that will occur after all prophecy is fulfilled in scripture.

Most of mankind has rejected G-d and his plan to restore mankind and creation as a result, we continue to see an escalation of depravity, violence and destruction. This is the inevitable result when you run from that which is good and chase after that which is evil.

The answers you seek are found in scripture. Who do you think the tree of life in the garden is? Who is the word become flesh that John speaks concerning? WE are told that if we want to understand the end look at the beginning. Scripture says that which has been will be again.

We are plainly told that G-d Does nothing without first revealing it to his prophets. This means if you want to know if your theology is based on solid ground STUDY THE PROPHETS and if the doctrine you hold to be true is NOT found in the OT it is NOT truth.

Amos 3:7 Indeed, the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing His counsel to His servants the prophets.

Adonai Elohim is SHAKING and speaking to his ekklesia declaring "Come out of her my people so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues"

G-d ekklesia is currently in babylon the mystery religion but he is calling them OUT of it. Many will at first refuse because they love more the tickling of the ear and the supposed freedom of being "led by the spirit" while what they are actually doing is what scripture sternly warns us against doing Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.

Today NO ONE talks about resting on Sunday. When I was a young Nothing was open in this country on Sunday. When I was a boy the 10 commandments were to be obeyed.

Today the evangelical church teaches you are free from the law. The OT died with Christ....

This is a gross perversion of the truth and it is leading people away from what our Father in heaven has called is to be a unique people. We are to be holy as our Father in Heaven is holy.

When the light (G-d's people) refuse to walk upright and daily die to the flesh and walk as Messiah walked then we fail to be that light and evil grows and people who are lost laugh and mock and rightly tell us we are no different than those who are atheists.

When the divorce rate among self described born again evangelical christians is HIGHER than the divorce rate among atheists we have failed because we have been seduced by the lie

Click to expand...

What an excellent post! Your used of Scripture is to be highly praised! Yes today people believe we are not to obey the Ten Commandments, I ask which one should we ignore? Yes people now are so called believers of the lie (just say this prayer) but few become Followers' of the WORD! G-d Bless you dear Brother!