Israel goes full Moloch

Now, having said all that, I personally do believe that the Jews will come in large numbers with a rallying call to Christ as the 11th hour workmen, as the saying goes "The first to have been preached the gospel, will be the last to receive and to deliver it". That being said, the land or kingdom calling itself Israel has no spiritual relevance to the sign of Jonah given it 2000 years ago, since the Lord doesn't go back on his word. The Lord is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

The 11th hour workmen are a rally to wake up their Jewish kindred and to disband the worldly fantasy of a Utopian 1000 year military reign. There is no physical earthly reign of Christ on this earth, the only reign we have is spiritually today, whilst in the earthly body and in the afterlife, for the eternal 1000 (timeless) reign, in the sinless body in heaven (his Father's house).

random person said:

biblewriter you disappoint me none of your examples are dealing with any regathering while in disbelief and rebellion whatsoever THEY ARE ALREADY IN THE LAND.

try better because none of these verses discuss a regathering but the sins and apostacy that will bring judgment and the scattering of israel.

more? prove to us you dispensationalists arent teaching falsehood by playing loose and careless with the scripture by adding ideas and words that arent even there.

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That, by the way, is what I said. Except, of course, I did not make the mistake if assuming that these prophecies were speaking about ancient times.

There is absolutely no condition attached to the promise that God would restore the nation of Israel, both to their land and to their God.

Isaiah 65:18-21 is an unconditional promise of a regathering after God has come in laming fire to judge the wicked.

Ezekiel 20:33-38 is a declaration that at that time God will purge out all the rebels from among them.

Ezekiel 36:1-10 Is an unconditional promise that the land will again be inhabited by absolutely all of the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 47:15-20 is an unconditional promise of the borders of the land in that day.

Biblewriter said:

There is absolutely no condition attached to the promise that God would restore the nation of Israel, both to their land and to their God.

Isaiah 65:18-21 is an unconditional promise of a regathering after God has come in laming fire to judge the wicked.

Ezekiel 20:33-38 is a declaration that at that time God will purge out all the rebels from among them.

Ezekiel 36:1-10 Is an unconditional promise that the land will again be inhabited by absolutely all of the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 47:15-20 is an unconditional promise of the borders of the land in that day.

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You keep on quoting Old Testament versus instead of Jesus Christ, why if I may ask you?

Jesus is the fulfilment of the Old Testament scriptures as the promised seed to come, through the lineage of David and is therefore the final authority in this matter. When Jesus said.......

Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah." Then Jesus left them and went away.

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This should be enough to you to accept and to believe. Why don't you believe what Jesus Christ told the Pharisees?

I and others will not entertain your references to Old Testament scriptures, whilst you continue to ignore the very words from the lips of our Lord and saviour and in this matter he is the final authority and not the Old Testament scriptures that you continually refer to in vain I might add.

So please kindly tell us why you are not willing to take the words of Jesus on board when he said.......

Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah." Then Jesus left them and went away.

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Suffice it to say that you or the Old Testament prophets are not the final authority, right?

So in this matter the ultimatum for the Jewish nation was the sign of Jonah. The context of generational situation and cultural context must be tied to the message from Jesus.

How could there be another sign after the final sign?

Simply put, you like others who advocate such error, are inventing signs on top of what Jesus had said almost 2000 years ago, in regards to the final sign given to the nation of Israel.

I for one believe what Jesus said, do you?

The Jews as a nation within the context of generational situation had failed to say blessed is he who came in the name of the Lord. When the sign of Jonah expired, they became the new covenant gentiles, meaning they joined the ranks of the unbelieving pagan gentiles before the cross of Christ.

Although they can as the unbelieving gentiles of the new covenant come to the kingdom as the 11th hoir workmen. The Lord's door is always open for them if they so wish to come by faith.

Berean777 said:

You keep on quoting Old Testament versus instead of Jesus Christ, why if I may ask you?

Jesus is the fulfilment of the Old Testament scriptures as the promised seed to come, through the lineage of David and is therefore the final authority in this matter. When Jesus said.......



This should be enough to you to accept and to believe. Why don't you believe what Jesus Christ told the Pharisees?

I and others will not entertain your references to Old Testament scriptures, whilst you continue to ignore the very words from the lips of our Lord and saviour and in this matter he is the final authority and not the Old Testament scriptures that you continually refer to in vain I might add.

So please kindly tell us why you are not willing to take the words of Jesus on board when he said.......



Suffice it to say that you or the Old Testament prophets are not the final authority, right?

So in this matter the ultimatum for the Jewish nation was the sign of Jonah. The context of generational situation and cultural context must be tied to the message from Jesus.

How could there be another sign after the final sign?

Simply put, you like others who advocate such error, are inventing signs on top of what Jesus had said almost 2000 years ago, in regards to the final sign given to the nation of Israel.

I for one believe what Jesus said, do you?

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I quote Old Testament prophecies because they are the inspired word of God, just like the New Testament. If God said that (such-and-such) will happen, and it has not happened, then one of two things is most certainly true.

Either:

The thing in question will yet happen in the future.

Or:

The word of God is not reliable.

The Boxer said:

You have contradicted your Lord Jesus. Do you want to be in that position? He said that the kingdom would be TAKEN AWAY from them and GIVEN TO a nation that bears the fruits thereof. He did NOT say that it would be taken away temporarily. He said that it would be taken away and GIVEN TO a nation that bears the fruits thereof. This implies that the kingdom was taken away from the Jews PERMANENTLY and that it was TRANSFERRED to another nation. That nation is the Church.

But, hey, if you want to be in the position of blatantly contradicting your Lord it's no skin off my back.

We (Christians) are the kingdom and priests unto God Revelation 1:6 NIV

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Did God say that He would never give up on His Chosen People? In what you have written, the Church has replaced Israel. Is this replacement theology? Did God say that Israel would be the head and not the tail? Isn't it prophesied that in the end the Kings and Nations would take hold of the skirt of the Israelites and say we will go with you for we hear that God is with you? The Church has not replaced Israel and will never replace Israel. They are Gods Chosen people. Yep, there will be losing of skin/rewards.

Biblewriter said:

I quote Old Testament prophecies because they are the inspired word of God, just like the New Testament. If God said that (such-and-such) will happen, and it has not happened, then one of two things is most certainly true.

Either:

The thing in question will yet happen in the future.

Or:

The word of God is not reliable.

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Promises of God are tied to blood and his only begotten Son's blood is the focal point throughout scriptures, both old and new testaments.

The written word of God in the Old testament times became the living word Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said the scriptures testify of me. Having said that, the future that you project upon the promises of God are not tied to the focal point of scripture, which pointed at the cross of our salvation, rather you have made it your mission to tie it to a gentile nation of unbelievers calling itself Israel.

I have deduced that your reasoning to remove the focal point, by separating the cross at calvary (sign of Jonah) from the promise, does not follow sound interpretative judgement on your part, that results in an illogical selective statement that you made below...

Biblewriter said:

The thing in question will yet happen in the future.

Or:

The word of God is not reliable.

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God would feel cheated if one was to entertain your concept of a crossless promise, tied to a nation who was given one sign to turn back from their disbelief. Therefore it is not the reliability of God's word, but the unreliability of your interpretation as to whom that promise that was made in the old covenant scriptures is tied to. Basically by removing the cross of salvation from the promise, you make a completely different religion, one that is in homage to a sinful man, rather to the sinless Son of God.

It is obvious you have made your choice. So your reference to the old testament scriptures IS NOT the word of God, because all the writers had a completely different interpretation than you. If a promise was to a nation regardless, then there would be no need for the cross or the Son of God to bleed on the cross. The old testament writers knew that a promise can only be through God's heir and his only begotten Son is the heir of God's throne.

There is no such thing as a Sonless promise given to a nation unconditionally. Throughout the old testament God says do this and I will promise you this and do that and I will do this. It is a give and take relationship borne on obediance. The very notion of a crossless promise that is unconditionally given to an unbelieving nation goes directly against God's character. Anyone who thinks that God is capable of doing such a thing is making him out to be out of character.

I never so much as suggested that any of the Old Testament prophecies would be fulfilled apart from the cross. That is a pure assumption about my meaning.

The Old Testament prophecies are absolute that, not only will all Israel be physically restored to their land, but that they will be spiritually restored to their God. We are explicitly told that they will repent with bitter weeping, and that every one one of them still living will be called holy.

As no man is holy on his own merits, this can only be accomplished through a true, active, faith in the blood shed by our Lord on the cross.

Biblewriter said:

I never so much as suggested that any of the Old Testament prophecies would be fulfilled apart from the cross. That is a pure assumption about my meaning.

The Old Testament prophecies are absolute that, not only will all Israel be physically restored to their land, but that they will be spiritually restored to their God. We are explicitly told that they will repent with bitter weeping, and that every one one of them still living will be called holy.

As no man is holy on his own merits, this can only be accomplished through a true, active, faith in the blood shed by our Lord on the cross.

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It is what you imply 100%, by making a piece of agricultural land as the focal point, by solely tying it to the promise, whilst ignoring the sign of Jonah (cross at Calvary ) given almost 2000 years ago.
This on your part is double talk.

Here is your land focused agenda statement.....

The Old Testament prophecies are absolute that, not only will all Israel be physically restored to their land,

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You realise what you are doing don't you....Hmmmmm.......

What you are unwittingly saying is that the Lord had failed to restore Israel as a nation spiritually on his first attempt, now on his second attempt he will have more success because......as you say......

Israel be physically restored to their land,

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Since Israel/Jerusalem was built up for the coming of Messiah even in troublesome times (Daniel9:25), the land restoration issue is not the real point as so much as it was Messiah's job to spiritually restore Israel. The Jews wanted to make Jesus King right there and then, but his mission was of a spiritual restoration solely tied to the cross at calvary. Therefore the sign of Jonah is the focal point and not a land restoration issue that you now, after 2000 years make the central and sole focal point. Please don't say that you don't, people can read in between the lines.

I want you to come forth with what you believe.

Do you believe that Messiah failed to restore Israel on his first attempt? Yes/No.

If you say Yes, then you have introduced into the equation a credibility issue of great concern. Well what is it.......Hmmmmmmm...

Elijah will come and restore all things. Is this statement alluding to a man appointed at a specified time in history from the cross and onwards?

Absolutely No! The Elijah the restorer or builder is the works of God manifested through the body of his only begotten Son, from when the Holy Ghost descended upon the members of Christ on Pentecost. Elijah the builder is the Holy Ghost. How on earth did we ever think of a mere finite man in time and space, to do all the restoring and after all to restore all things, must encompass all generations from the cross and onwards.

This is tied back to my question of whether Jesus accomplished his mission to reconcile man kind, on his first attempt? The answer is yes and when he said it is finished, the restoration or link between man and God was accomplished and now the Elijah or the tent peg (temple builder) came on Pentecost as the Elijah to finish the works, through the body of the Son.

The second time Christ comes is not to remove the sins of a nation, because he did that the first time. The second time is as follows.....

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrew 9:28)

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The second time is to those who have already accepted him as saviour. So he is not going to bear the sins of a nation all over again, this would be contradictory to all scripture. The only way the Jews can recieve Jesus is if they are spiritually restored by the Elijah, the Holy Ghost. The only way to be restored is to be a member of the body of Christ, then and only then can they attain the promise, through the Son and not by their lineage or earthly land deeds.

God never "tries" to do anything. He either does it or He does not do it. And when He does it, He never fails.

Here are twelve places where we are specifically told that Israel will eventually repent, and how God will make this happen.

“Now therefore, thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning this city of which you say, ‘It shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: Behold, I will gather them out of all countries where I have driven them in My anger, in My fury, and in great wrath; I will bring them back to this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely. They shall be My people, and I will be their God; then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me. Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will assuredly plant them in this land, with all My heart and with all My soul.’” (Jeremiah 32:36-41)

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, £though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

“And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one-third shall be left in it:
I will bring the one-third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’” (Zechariah 13:8-9)

Therefore thus says the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob:
“Jacob shall not now be ashamed,
Nor shall his face now grow pale;
But when he sees his children,
The work of My hands, in his midst,
They will hallow My name,
And hallow the Holy One of Jacob,
And fear the God of Israel.
These also who erred in spirit will come to understanding,
And those who complained will learn doctrine.” (Isaiah 29:22-24)

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. (Zechariah 12:10-14)

“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 20:33-38)

And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning. (Isaiah 4:3-4)

In that day you shall not be shamed for any of your deeds
In which you transgress against Me;
For then I will take away from your midst
Those who rejoice in your pride,
And you shall no longer be haughty
In My holy mountain.
I will leave in your midst
A meek and humble people,
And they shall trust in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall do no unrighteousness
And speak no lies,
Nor shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth;
For they shall feed their flocks and lie down,
And no one shall make them afraid.” (Zephaniah 3:11-13)

“At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the Lord, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
“In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers. (Jeremiah 3:17-18)

‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the Lord, have spoken it, and I will do it.” (Ezekiel 36:22-36)

All these quotations are from the NKJV

MWood said:

Isn't it prophesied that in the end the Kings and Nations would take hold of the skirt of the Israelites and say we will go with you for we hear that God is with you?

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Did we not see a type of this when the mixed multitude follow Moses with the Hebrew people out of Egypt and again with Ruth following Naomi.
As the woman bowed down for 18 yrs. holds onto the hem of the skirt of Jesus so do all those in faith in Christ. Also the skirts of the Jewish Apostles and authors of the NT. I expect that as the Jews come to the Messiah it will cause conversions among the Gentiles as well.

MWood said:

The Church has not replaced Israel and will never replace Israel. They are Gods Chosen people.

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I agree, not replaced but grafted in, and thus also the chosen, peculiar people of God. Gentiles through the blood of Christ sacrifice, the last Godly sacrifice, draw near to God and become partakers of His promises along with believing Jews. see Eph. 2 on the Commonwealth of Israel and believers.
We also become the children of Abraham through Christ, the one Seed. Gal. 3

I don't see that dispensationalism has what Paul calls the 'one new man' in view, but strives to keep us separated. The body of Christ is not 'them' and 'us'. Eph. 2

Biblewriter said:

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, £though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

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See Hebrews 8.

Biblewriter said:

God never "tries" to do anything. He either does it or He does not do it. And when He does it, He never fails.

Here are twelve places where we are specifically told that Israel will eventually repent, and how God will make this happen.

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That they will and this has no covenantal merit tied to land rights as you have implied, rather it is solely tied to the Messiah and his redemptive work on the cross. This means that they have to pick up their crosses just like everyone else and to quickly get on the great commission bandwagon as the 11th hour workmen and forget about their indulgence in genealogy and land rights.

“

Now therefore, thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning this city of which you say, ‘It shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: Behold, I will gather them out of all countries where I have driven them in My anger, in My fury, and in great wrath; I will bring them back to this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely. They shall be My people, and I will be their God; then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me. Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will assuredly plant them in this land, with all My heart and with all My soul.’” (Jeremiah 32:36-41)

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Has God not already made an everlasting covenant through the shedding of his only begotten Son's blood? Yes/No

Is this covenant future or past and present which is solely tied to the cross of the Son?

“

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, £though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

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That God did make a new covenant at the time of the anointing of the most high, who is the Messiah and this is evidence that this new covenant is and has been available to them for the last 2000 years and counting, regardless of any genealogies or procurement of agricultural land. Do you honestly think that spiritual restoration is tied to land procurement? Yes/No

If you said yes, then show us scripture that states that land procurement is the sole indicator for spiritual restoration, all the while ignoring the cross at Calvary (sign of Jonah) and the outpouring of the Spirit of Grace on Pentecost.

“

And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one-third shall be left in it:
I will bring the one-third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’” (Zechariah 13:8-9)

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This is a past, present and future participle of the verb "bring", where the refiner/restorer who is the Elijah, came on Pentecost, has been doing this purging/sanctification for the last 2000 years and counting. The statement "I will say, this is my people; and each one will say, The Lord is my God", is solely tied to the Holy Ghost who came to reveal all truth.

I have pointed out that you use scriptures out of context and bypass the cross of our salvation as our justification before our God and the Holy Ghost as our sanctifier before our God. You use these versus to allude to a nation waiting for this to happen, when this event has been happening since Pentecost, otherwise we would be denying the present power of God the Holy Ghost and his Christ.

Therefore thus says the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob:
“Jacob shall not now be ashamed,
Nor shall his face now grow pale;
But when he sees his children,
The work of My hands, in his midst,
They will hallow My name,
And hallow the Holy One of Jacob,
And fear the God of Israel.
These also who erred in spirit will come to understanding,
And those who complained will learn doctrine.” (Isaiah 29:22-24)

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Again you take versus out of context by projecting them to a nation, without understanding what they mean. Notice the statement "when HE sees HIS children", is a statement similar to my Lord said to my Lord, is pointing to when Jesus Christ sees the Father's children. This has a great implication, in that it once again points to Christ's first advent when he came to remove the sins of the nation in one day (Zechariah 3:9).

It states.....

I will remove the sins of this nation in one day. What day was this?

The works on the cross at Calvary, after Christ had said it is finished is that day that was prophesied by the Old Testament writer. So again we have the sign of Jonah pointing to those Old Testament versus.

“

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. (Zechariah 12:10-14)

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If you haven't figured out that those versus are pointing to Christ's crucifixion, then I'm afraid I can't help you friend. The Spirit of Grace and supplication is pointing to the Holy Ghost who came on Pentecost, who allowed the world to mourn for the only begotten Son and to this very day, they continue to mourn, when reflecting on the painful death that he accepted for our redemption. Again the sign of Jonah once more repeated as the central theme of Old Testament prophesy, which was fulfilled in Christ our Lord, on his cross at Calvary.

“

Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

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These versus say nothing about a physical land, rather it alludes to inheritance of rights and privileges that God alone offers them. The question is, to whom is God offering these rights and privileges as heirs to the promise? Just consider the versus in context and you will discern that the letter is of rebuke to the nation of old covenant Israel, who had inadvertently profaned the name of the Lord before the gentile nations. Now God says that he is going to get a people out of every nation across the globe, by revealing himself to the once gentile nations who were once called not God's people (Hosea 2:23), whereby after he makes them Holy before the eyes of the nation of Israel that he is rebuking, are now called God's people.

In other words the Lord says the rights and privileges of my spiritual house (land = authorship) is given to another people's who will bear God's name. The evidence shows that for the last 2000 years the once pagan gentile nations have been offered those privileges as heirs to the promise, before the gazing eyes of Jews who had sold out their inheritance. Notice the versus I will sprinkle on you clean water points to baptism in Christ and that God will clean them and deliver them from their gentile pagan ways of the past. If you haven't noticed already, the writer isn't talking about Israel, but is talking of the once pagan Gentiles who encompass the globe. The versus also point to Pentecost as to change the heart of stone and replace it with a sanctified heart of flesh, which further supports events past, present and future, notwithstanding any notion of physical land and/or physical fleshly Jewish descendants. The author is talking about circumcision of the heart owing to justification by the cross of our Lord through baptism in his Holy name. There is no contextual merit of this letter being addressed to the physical descendants of Abraham connected to some procurement of physical agricultural land. This is where your whole thesis falls apart at the seem.

Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”

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Again these versus point to the great Commisison to make disciples of the world by multiplying the fruit before God. The ones that are called my people are the once pagan gentile nations who have washed their robes by the blood of the lamb, who were once...

I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.' I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.'" (Hosea 2:23)

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As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 20:33-38)

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Again context is that God is bringing out of the pagan religions of the gentile world people's from every country, yet they shall not even set foot into the physical land of Israel, because guess what?

They are not Jews by physical descendants, rather they are Gentiles by birth and have been brought into the bondage of the blood covenant, as prisoners of Christ (Ephesians 3:1)

And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning. (Isaiah 4:3-4)

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Again the versus point to the refiner and sanctifier, who is the Elijah to come and restore all things. This points to the active mission of the Holy Ghost who has been doing just that and continues to do so, even to this very day, unless of course you want to deny him that role.

In that day you shall not be shamed for any of your deeds
In which you transgress against Me;
For then I will take away from your midst
Those who rejoice in your pride,
And you shall no longer be haughty
In My holy mountain.
I will leave in your midst
A meek and humble people,
And they shall trust in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall do no unrighteousness
And speak no lies,
Nor shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth;
For they shall feed their flocks and lie down,
And no one shall make them afraid.” (Zephaniah 3:11-13)

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Remnant of Israel speaks of a small number of Jews during the time of Christ who were responsible for commissioning the church and feeding the flock and it is because of them, that we can claim to be Christians today.

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At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the Lord, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
“In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers. (Jeremiah 3:17-18)

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Again the writer is talking of that day, pointing to Christ and Pentecost. Otherwise you tell me what other day that the Lord reserved is greater than the cross at Calvary and Pentecost? I hope you would say no other day is, so in this regard there is no other appointed future day. So the world at large who had been divorced from God are symbolised as the once many pagan nations of the world who had come to Christ on that day, that is, from Pentecost and onwards.

‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the Lord, have spoken it, and I will do it.” (Ezekiel 36:22-36)

All these quotations are from the NKJV

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The day after Pentecost within the context of situation as far as God is concerned, when he poured out his Spirit of Grace, are spiritual which are applied to the body of Christ. The author is talking about a spiritual fenceless city of people's gathered from every gentile nation, including Judah, who are restored from spiritual ruin. Notice the signs of Adam before the fall in the garden of Eden implies a spiritual ruin and not a physical ruin, for the sins of Adam are removed in one day, that points to the works of Christ on the cross at Calvary (sign of Jonah). God said that he has done this through his Son and his Spirit, whilst you are contending that he hasn't, so who are we to believe?

Let me tell you, that you are not alone in your physical land based restoration delusion, when you continually assert that the promise has not yet been delivered by God. The problem that you are having is with the truth of scripture. So we see evidence that you avoid the central theme of Christianity by continuously using Old Testament scriptures out of context, to point to future events that bypass the cross of Christ and Pentecost as to the day that God said that he will deliver good on his promise. You seem to make God's word to no avail when you imply that he has yet to deliver on his promis. Therefore that day that God said he will fully accomplish and to deliver the promise, which is tied to the outpouring of the Spirit of Grace, is not feasible on your land based agenda. In this regard according to you, that day is not past and present, rather it is future and is conditionally based on a nation of unbelievers, who are to first claim their entitlements first, before they can be justified and sanctified by the works of Christ and the Holy Ghost and this I say is another gospel, which is foreign to the great Commisison and one that must be rejected by all Christians.

My question to you is, how are you proclaiming Jesus to the Jews and are you proclaiming him from a present Holy Spirit outpouring context, or one that is divorced of the last 2000 years of Christ and his cross (sign of Jonah).

Hank77 said:

Did we not see a type of this when the mixed multitude follow Moses with the Hebrew people out of Egypt and again with Ruth following Naomi.
As the woman bowed down for 18 yrs. holds onto the hem of the skirt of Jesus so do all those in faith in Christ. Also the skirts of the Jewish Apostles and authors of the NT. I expect that as the Jews come to the Messiah it will cause conversions among the Gentiles as well.

I agree, not replaced but grafted in, and thus also the chosen, peculiar people of God. Gentiles through the blood of Christ sacrifice, the last Godly sacrifice, draw near to God and become partakers of His promises along with believing Jews. see Eph. 2 on the Commonwealth of Israel and believers.
We also become the children of Abraham through Christ, the one Seed. Gal. 3

I don't see that dispensationalism has what Paul calls the 'one new man' in view, but strives to keep us separated. The body of Christ is not 'them' and 'us'. Eph. 2

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I don't remember reading any time line on being grafted in. Nor when we become the children of Abraham or one new man. In my thinking, it will all come to pass when we are all in New Jerusalem in the presence of God. That will be on the new Earth.

The dispensation that I know is not Us and Them. It is about the Body of Christ which includes both Jew and Gentile alike. We, the both of us, are on equal footing in the eyes of God. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, bond nor free, man nor woman. For we are all equal in the eyes of God. This is the way I see dispensationalism.

MWood said:

It is about the Body of Christ which includes both Jew and Gentile alike. We, the both of us, are on equal footing in the eyes of God. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, bond nor free, man nor woman. For we are all equal in the eyes of God.

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We agree on this.

I don't remember reading any time line on being grafted in. Nor when we become the children of Abraham or one new man. In my thinking, it will all come to pass when we are all in New Jerusalem in the presence of God. That will be on the new Earth.

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What scripture causes you to believe this? Thanks