Post-Trib Only Daniel's Seventieth Week, (Dan.9:27)

stephen583

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According to popular eschatology, this passage of Bible Prophecy describes the "Seven Year Tribulation Period", which corresponds to Daniel's Seventieth Week, and which begins with some agreement (covenant), whereby confirmation of the Abrhamic Covenant reestablishes the system of Levitical Temple worship in Israel, (which may or may not include the restoration of the Second Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, depending on what theologian you ask).

During the Middle of the week, (The Beginning of the Second Three and a Half Years of the Tribulation Period, or Great Tribulation), the Antichrist breaks the agreement with Israel and then..(well apparantly nobody is really clear on exactly what happens after that). The whole theory becomes a little bit "murky" after that.


Do I agree with this "popular" interpretation of Daniel 9:27 ?.. No I don't. I think it's patently absurd. First, the idea of a restoration of Levitical Temple Worship makes absolutely no sense from the standpoint of Christian Theology. It's even more rediculous to suggest any Middle East Peace Agreement would have as a precondition the restoration or rebuilding of the ancient Second Temple, (that would naturally necessitate the removal, or at least the desecration of the Dome of the Rock-Al asqa Mosque, the Third Holiest site in all of Islam). That isn't the basis for a Middle East Peace Agreement, It's a recipe for a Declaration of War against Israel.


Second, there's no reason to assume Daniel 9:27 can ONLY refer to the "Abrahamic Covenant", as though no OTHER covenant agreement exists in the Biblical record. Why couldn't Daniel 9:27 be a reference to the "Noahic Covenant" instead, (Genesis 9:9-17) "And God set a rainbow in the cloud as a token of His covenant" ?!


Proponents of the Abrahamic Covenant theory point out the "sacrifice and oblation" are cut off by the Antichrist in the Midst of Daniel's Seventieth Week (which corresponds to the beginning of thr Great Tribulation), and the use of the terminology "sacrifice and oblation" are concrete evidence their interpretation is absolutely correct and irrefutable.


Hold on a second there, not so fast. The terms "sacrifice and oblation" are NOT EXCLUSIVE TO JUDAISM !. In Christian doctrine the term "sacrifice" refers to "living according to God's Will" as a believer in Christ", (Romans 12:1-2). To make a living "sacrifice" is to forsake all else in order to do the Will of God, just as Jesus Christ did (Matthew 10:37-39, 19:29).


The "oblation" is a jewish tradition and represents a twice daily (morning and evening) prayer thanking the Creator for creating the earth and all the creations therein. However this tradition was adopted by Early Christians as well, and is still reverently observed by some Christians even today.


So the "sacrifice and oblation" which is cut off in the midst of the Tribulation Period could well be a reference to the destruction of Christianity, which if I remember my eschatology correctly, is actually mentioned in the Revelation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14) and the Gospel of Christ, (Matthew 24:49).


Poof ! There goes the irrefutable concrete proof Daniel 9:27 can ONLY refer to the "Abrahamic Covenant". At best that theory is totally arbitrary, and at worst it violates Christian theology which maintains the ritualistic temple "sacrifice" of animals as an offering to God is no longer valid, the sacrifice of Christ now being sufficient to cover all sin.


"And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off anymore by the waters of a flood; neither shall there anymore be a flood to destroy the earth" (Genesis 9:11, KJV).


In December 2015 the United Nations met in Paris France to "confirm" the "Noahic Covenant" by reaching an international agreement that addresses the Threat of Climate Change and the threat of rising sea levels, caused by increased greenhouse gas e missions resulting from heavy industry. Thus, "Saving The Earth" from catastrophic environmental damage for future generations. The Climate Change Agreement was signed and became international law on Dec.12, 2015.


Actually, there are Scriptural hints elsewhere in the Bible which seem to indicate the "Noahic Covenant" is related to End Time events. The story of the flood and Noah are specifically referenced in the Olivet Discourse, which deals with the events of the Tribulation Period, (Matthew 24:37).

Also, in the story of Noah and the ark, it says from the time God instructed Noah to enter the ark until the rain came was SEVEN DAYS, (Genesis 7:3-4). Why was there a seven day delay before the flood began ?.. Is this because it took seven days to complete the loading of the Ark ? The story doesn't say why. Was this some cryptic, hidden allusion to Daniel's Seventieth Week, (The Seven Year Tribulation Period) ?!..



Where would I put my money on the correct interpretation of Daniel 9:27 ? On some arbitrary and convoluted MYTH about the "Abrahamic Covenant" ?.. Or instead, on an actual recent historic event that probably represents the fulfillment of Daniel's Prophecy !.. Uuum. I'll go with what's behind door number two.


Of course this "Noahic" interpretation as it relates to Daniel 9:27 has a very serious and profound implication for End Time Bible Prophecy. If correct, this means the Tribulation Period began on December 12, 2015.







 
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tranquil

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According to popular eschatology, this passage of Bible Prophecy describes the "Seven Year Tribulation Period", which corresponds to Daniel's Seventieth Week, and which begins with some agreement (covenant), whereby confirmation of the Abrhamic Covenant reestablishes the system of Levitical Temple worship in Israel, (which may or may not include the restoration of the Second Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, depending on what theologian you ask).

During the Middle of the week, (The Beginning of the Second Three and a Half Years of the Tribulation Period, or Great Tribulation), the Antichrist breaks the agreement with Israel and then..(well apparantly nobody is really clear on exactly what happens after that). The whole theory becomes a little bit "murky" after that.


Do I agree with this "popular" interpretation of Daniel 9:27 ?.. No I don't. I think it's patently absurd. First, the idea of a restoration of Levitical Temple Worship makes absolutely no sense from the standpoint of Christian Theology. It's even more rediculous to suggest any Middle East Peace Agreement would have as a precondition the restoration or rebuilding of the ancient Second Temple, (that would naturally necessitate the removal, or at least the desecration of the Dome of the Rock-Al asqa Mosque, the Third Holiest site in all of Islam). That isn't the basis for a Middle East Peace Agreement, It's a recipe for a Declaration of War against Israel.


Second, there's no reason to assume Daniel 9:27 can ONLY refer to the "Abrahamic Covenant", as though no OTHER covenant agreement exists in the Biblical record. Why couldn't Daniel 9:27 be a reference to the "Noahic Covenant" instead, (Genesis 9:9-17) "And God set a rainbow in the cloud as a token of His covenant" ?!


Proponents of the Abrahamic Covenant theory point out the "sacrifice and oblation" are cut off by the Antichrist in the Midst of Daniel's Seventieth Week (which corresponds to the beginning of thr Great Tribulation), and the use of the terminology "sacrifice and oblation" are concrete evidence their interpretation is absolutely correct and irrefutable.


Hold on a second there, not so fast. The terms "sacrifice and oblation" are NOT EXCLUSIVE TO JUDAISM !. In Christian doctrine the term "sacrifice" refers to "living according to God's Will" as a believer in Christ", (Romans 12:1-2). To make a living "sacrifice" is to forsake all else in order to do the Will of God, just as Jesus Christ did (Matthew 10:37-39, 19:29).


The "oblation" is a jewish tradition and represents a twice daily (morning and evening) prayer thanking the Creator for creating the earth and all the creations therein. However this tradition was adopted by Early Christians as well, and is still reverently observed by some Christians even today.


So the "sacrifice and oblation" which is cut off in the midst of the Tribulation Period could well be a reference to the destruction of Christianity, which if I remember my eschatology correctly, is actually mentioned in the Revelation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14) and the Gospel of Christ, (Matthew 24:49).


Poof ! There goes the irrefutable concrete proof Daniel 9:27 can ONLY refer to the "Abrahamic Covenant". At best that theory is totally arbitrary, and at worst it violates Christian theology which maintains the ritualistic temple "sacrifice" of animals as an offering to God is no longer valid, the sacrifice of Christ now being sufficient to cover all sin.


"And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off anymore by the waters of a flood; neither shall there anymore be a flood to destroy the earth" (Genesis 9:11, KJV).


In December 2015 the United Nations met in Paris France to "confirm" the "Noahic Covenant" by reaching an international agreement that addresses the Threat of Climate Change and the threat of rising sea levels, caused by increased greenhouse gas e missions resulting from heavy industry. Thus, "Saving The Earth" from catastrophic environmental damage for future generations. The Climate Change Agreement was signed and became international law on Dec.12, 2015.


Actually, there are Scriptural hints elsewhere in the Bible which seem to indicate the "Noahic Covenant" is related to End Time events. The story of the flood and Noah are specifically referenced in the Olivet Discourse, which deals with the events of the Tribulation Period, (Matthew 24:37). Also, in the story of Noah and the ark, it says from the time God instructed Noah to enter the ark until the rain came was SEVEN DAYS, (Genesis 7:3-4). Why was there a seven day delay before the flood began ?.. Was this some cryptic, hidden allusion to Daniel's Seventieth Week, (The Seven Year Tribulation Period) ?!..


Where am I putting my money on the correct interpretation of Daniel 9:27 ? On some arbitrary and convoluted MYTH about the "Abrahamic Covenant" ?.. Or instead, on an actual recent historic event that probably represents the fulfillment of Daniel's Prophecy !.. Uuum. I'll go with what's behind door number two. Thank you very much.


Of course this "Noahic" interpretation as it relates to Daniel 9:27 has a very serious and profound implication for End Time Bible Prophecy. If correct, this means the Tribulation Period began on December 12, 2015.


WELCOME TO THE APOCALYPSE.





As I understand it, Daniel is referring to the Mosaic covenant, aka the song of Moses, in Dan 9, not the Abrahamic covenant. The Mosaic covenant is the only conditional covenant and is read at the end of every 7 years.

3 Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. 4 I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5 we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7 To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you. 8 To us, O Lord, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him 10 and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God by walking in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned aside, refusing to obey your voice. And the curse and oath that are written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him. 12 He has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us and against our rulers who ruled us, by bringing upon us a great calamity. For under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what has been done against Jerusalem.

13 As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this calamity has come upon us; yet we have not entreated the favor of the Lord our God, turning from our iniquities and gaining insight by your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept ready the calamity and has brought it upon us, for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works that he has done, and we have not obeyed his voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and have made a name for yourself, as at this day, we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
That's why the curses are poured out, aka the 7 bowls of wrath, by trangressing with the antichrist and false prophet.
This 'song of Moses' is also referenced in Rev 15:3

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

2 And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire—and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. 3 And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

“Great and amazing are your deeds,
O Lord God the Almighty!
Just and true are your ways,
O King of the nations!
4 Who will not fear, O Lord,
and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”​

And it is literally 70 weeks which occurs after the 1260 days. (which is why 10 days + 150 days + 385 days + 1260 days + 3.5 days + 490 days [70 weeks] =2298.5 days rounds to 2299 leaving the 2300th day as the 1st day of the sanctuary being cleansed.)

24 Seventy weeks are decreed
about your people and your holy city—
to bring the rebellion to an end,
to put a stop to sin,
to wipe away iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most holy place.
25 Know and understand this:
From the issuing of the decree
to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
until Messiah the Prince
will be seven weeks and 62 weeks.
It will be rebuilt with a plaza and a moat,
but in difficult times.
26 After those 62 weeks
the Messiah will be cut off
and will have nothing.
The people of the coming prince
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end will come with a flood,
and until the end there will be war;
desolations are decreed.
27 He will make a firm covenant
with many for one week,
but in the middle of the week
he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.
And the abomination of desolation
will be on a wing of the temple
until the decreed destruction
is poured out on the desolator.”​

The 385 days (the 6th Trumpet's 1 hour, 1 day, 1 month, 1 Jewish lunar year) fits right in when the anointed one comes at the 7th week and then dies at the end of the 62nd week (62-7=55 weeks/ 385 days). Then the 7 year covenant is made.

As to the Climate covenant, there are many covenants that will be broken: Iran/ US, climate UN, Israel & US (3-20-13's "Unbreakable Covenant" that gets broken Aug 31, 2016. This particular day could be the start of the 6th Trumpet. We will know April 1, 2016 if there is some sort of 9-11 type event here (5 months prior)
 
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LastSeven

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According to popular eschatology, this passage of Bible Prophecy describes the "Seven Year Tribulation Period", which corresponds to Daniel's Seventieth Week, and which begins with some agreement (covenant), whereby confirmation of the Abrhamic Covenant reestablishes the system of Levitical Temple worship in Israel, (which may or may not include the restoration of the Second Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, depending on what theologian you ask).

During the Middle of the week, (The Beginning of the Second Three and a Half Years of the Tribulation Period, or Great Tribulation), the Antichrist breaks the agreement with Israel and then..(well apparantly nobody is really clear on exactly what happens after that). The whole theory becomes a little bit "murky" after that.


Do I agree with this "popular" interpretation of Daniel 9:27 ?.. No I don't. I think it's patently absurd. First, the idea of a restoration of Levitical Temple Worship makes absolutely no sense from the standpoint of Christian Theology. It's even more rediculous to suggest any Middle East Peace Agreement would have as a precondition the restoration or rebuilding of the ancient Second Temple, (that would naturally necessitate the removal, or at least the desecration of the Dome of the Rock-Al asqa Mosque, the Third Holiest site in all of Islam). That isn't the basis for a Middle East Peace Agreement, It's a recipe for a Declaration of War against Israel.


Second, there's no reason to assume Daniel 9:27 can ONLY refer to the "Abrahamic Covenant", as though no OTHER covenant agreement exists in the Biblical record. Why couldn't Daniel 9:27 be a reference to the "Noahic Covenant" instead, (Genesis 9:9-17) "And God set a rainbow in the cloud as a token of His covenant" ?!


Proponents of the Abrahamic Covenant theory point out the "sacrifice and oblation" are cut off by the Antichrist in the Midst of Daniel's Seventieth Week (which corresponds to the beginning of thr Great Tribulation), and the use of the terminology "sacrifice and oblation" are concrete evidence their interpretation is absolutely correct and irrefutable.


Hold on a second there, not so fast. The terms "sacrifice and oblation" are NOT EXCLUSIVE TO JUDAISM !. In Christian doctrine the term "sacrifice" refers to "living according to God's Will" as a believer in Christ", (Romans 12:1-2). To make a living "sacrifice" is to forsake all else in order to do the Will of God, just as Jesus Christ did (Matthew 10:37-39, 19:29).


The "oblation" is a jewish tradition and represents a twice daily (morning and evening) prayer thanking the Creator for creating the earth and all the creations therein. However this tradition was adopted by Early Christians as well, and is still reverently observed by some Christians even today.


So the "sacrifice and oblation" which is cut off in the midst of the Tribulation Period could well be a reference to the destruction of Christianity, which if I remember my eschatology correctly, is actually mentioned in the Revelation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14) and the Gospel of Christ, (Matthew 24:49).


Poof ! There goes the irrefutable concrete proof Daniel 9:27 can ONLY refer to the "Abrahamic Covenant". At best that theory is totally arbitrary, and at worst it violates Christian theology which maintains the ritualistic temple "sacrifice" of animals as an offering to God is no longer valid, the sacrifice of Christ now being sufficient to cover all sin.


"And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off anymore by the waters of a flood; neither shall there anymore be a flood to destroy the earth" (Genesis 9:11, KJV).


In December 2015 the United Nations met in Paris France to "confirm" the "Noahic Covenant" by reaching an international agreement that addresses the Threat of Climate Change and the threat of rising sea levels, caused by increased greenhouse gas e missions resulting from heavy industry. Thus, "Saving The Earth" from catastrophic environmental damage for future generations. The Climate Change Agreement was signed and became international law on Dec.12, 2015.


Actually, there are Scriptural hints elsewhere in the Bible which seem to indicate the "Noahic Covenant" is related to End Time events. The story of the flood and Noah are specifically referenced in the Olivet Discourse, which deals with the events of the Tribulation Period, (Matthew 24:37). Also, in the story of Noah and the ark, it says from the time God instructed Noah to enter the ark until the rain came was SEVEN DAYS, (Genesis 7:3-4). Why was there a seven day delay before the flood began ?.. Was this some cryptic, hidden allusion to Daniel's Seventieth Week, (The Seven Year Tribulation Period) ?!..


Where am I putting my money on the correct interpretation of Daniel 9:27 ? On some arbitrary and convoluted MYTH about the "Abrahamic Covenant" ?.. Or instead, on an actual recent historic event that probably represents the fulfillment of Daniel's Prophecy !.. Uuum. I'll go with what's behind door number two. Thank you very much.


Of course this "Noahic" interpretation as it relates to Daniel 9:27 has a very serious and profound implication for End Time Bible Prophecy. If correct, this means the Tribulation Period began on December 12, 2015.


WELCOME TO THE APOCALYPSE.
Interesting theory. Seems a bit weak though. If "He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’" refers to a covenant amongst the United Nations on climate change, then who is the "He" in this verse and was this climate deal a seven year deal?
 
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BABerean2

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Let us use the most logical interpretation of the verse.
In Jeremiah 31:31-34 the prophet foretells of the New Covenant. In Hebrews 8:6 we find that this New Covenant is "now" in effect. We also find in Hebrews 8:13 that the Old Sinai Covenant is now obsolete.

Daniel chapter 9 is all about the coming Messiah. We find a summary in verse 24.
There is no antichrist found anywhere in the chapter.
It is highly unlikely that the covenant could be related to an antichrist not even mentioned in the chapter and a future treaty produced by adding a manmade "gap", not mentioned by the angel.

We should assume that the angel Gabriel knew about the coming New Covenant of the Messiah found in Jeremiah chapter 31.
Therefore, pure logic would dictate that Daniel 9:27 is about the New Blood Covenant.

Look at the words of Christ and compare them to what we find in Daniel 9:27.



Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
................................
This is the same interpretation found in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.


Daniel 9:27


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

......................................

The New Testament is really about the New Covenant.

The interpretation used by most evangelicals today makes it appear that the angel Gabriel "forgot" to mention the New Blood Covenant of the Messiah.
Again, pure logic should dictate that this cannot be the correct interpretation.


Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023
.
 
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stephen583

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Let us use the most logical interpretation of the verse.

That is the most convoluted, confusing and contorted explanation of Scripture I believe I've ever had the displeasure to be a witness to. Albert Einstein said, "IF YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN IT SIMPLY, YOU JUST DON'T UNSDERSTAND IT WELL ENOUGH.

What's the short and simple explanation ?! Or don't you have one of those ?!

 
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BABerean2

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That is the most convoluted, confusing and contorted explanation of Scripture I believe I've ever had the displeasure to be a witness to. Albert Einstein said, "IF YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN IT SIMPLY, YOU JUST DON'T UNSDERSTAND IT WELL ENOUGH.

What's the short and simple explanation ?! Or don't you have one of those ?!



Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.


Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

.
 
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stephen583

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I read the previous post three times, and I'm baffled. Can anyone translate it for me in like twenty words or less ? I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't get it. I feel like a Japanese radio operator listening to a "Wind-Talker" speaking Navajo during World War Two.
 
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Psalm3704

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But an end time covenant that will not be fulfilled is clearly mentioned in other Old Testament prophecies. One of these is Isaiah 28:14-18, where we read, “Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Nicely said. This nullifies any possibility of the final week ever being fulfilled at Christ's first coming.










.
 
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BABerean2

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Daniel was told, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." (Daniel 9:26) Here we have sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years, from the going forth of the commandment to Messiah the Prince. Some claim that there is historical evidence that the triumphal entry occurred exactly 483 years, to the day, after the signing of this order. I cannot personally testify as to the accuracy of this claim. But history indeed confirms that it occurred at approximately that time.

But now the Divinely inspired account contains a break. We read, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Daniel 9:25-26)

Two things were to happen after the sixty-two week second part of this account. And we know that both of them indeed happened exactly as explicitly stated. “Messiah” would “be cut off,” and “the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Messiah was indeed cut off, and the city and the sanctuary were indeed destroyed. We know from history that these two events did not happen within a seven year period. Most historians feel that our calendar is in error, and the actual date of Jesus’ birth was 4 BC. Since Jesus lived thirty-three years, that puts his death in 29 A.D. But the city was not destroyed until 70 A.D., forty-one years after that. So even if there are small errors in the accepted dates of history, we absolutely know that “the city and the sanctuary” were not destroyed in the same week (seven year period) that our Lord was crucified. But we need to notice that both of these events are presented before the last week is even mentioned. So here we see an absolutely undeniable break in the scriptural account of the seventy weeks.

But the last week is treated differently. It does not even say that this is the seventieth week. The only reason we know that it is the seventieth week is because all the rest of the weeks had already been used up. So this week had to be the seventieth one. We read, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

Now many imagine that this verse speaks of the cross. They want to interpret the word “for” in this verse as “in,” and claim that this was speaking of Jesus confirming God’s covenant with us “in” the seventieth week, and claim that Jesus was crucified at the middle of the seventieth week. But even if history were wrong by so many years, this interpretation does violence to the structure of the prophecy. For the last week is not even mentioned until after the two events that were to take place after the sixty-ninth week.

But an end time covenant that will not be fulfilled is clearly mentioned in other Old Testament prophecies. One of these is Isaiah 28:14-18, where we read, “Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.”
Again, in Isaiah 57:7-9 we read, “Upon a lofty and high mountain hast thou set thy bed: even thither wentest thou up to offer sacrifice. Behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance: for thou hast discovered thyself to another than me, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and made thee a covenant with them; thou lovedst their bed where thou sawest it. And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.”

So we see that the scriptures indeed clearly foretell a future covenant that God will not allow to be fulfilled. Daniel 9:27 is only one of several places where this covenant in mentioned.

Others imagine that the existence of this gap is a relatively new concept, first developed by the dispensational teachers of the nineteenth century. But this is an error. The oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length that has survived to the present day is the last ten chapters of the famous work by Irenaeus titled “Against Heresies,” which is believed to have been written between the years 186 and 188. In this work Irenaeus spoke of the reign of an evil ruler whom he taught would come in the future, calling him “Antichrist,” and saying:

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

So there can be no rational debate that Irenaeus taught that the last of the seventy weeks revealed to Daniel would be fulfilled in his own future, not in his past.
Something on the order of twenty or so years after Irenaeus penned these words, Hyppolytus wrote the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture that has survived to the present day. His work was a commentary on Daniel which is thought to have been written sometime between the years 202 and 211. Hyppolytus very clearly taught a gap in the prophecy of the seventy weeks, saying:

“For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world. After he comes, sacrifice and drink offering, which now in every way is offered by the nations to God, shall be taken away.” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 35.3, as translated by T. C. Schmidt, and as available online at http://www.chronicon.net.)

Later in this same work, Hyppolytus said:

“Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 50.2)

Again, Clement of Alexandria whose work is believed to have “been given to the world in 194 A.D., wrote, “That the temple accordingly was built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judæa was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, ‘the Holy of Holies,’ having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those ‘sixty and two weeks,’ as the prophet said, and ‘in the one week,’ was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.” (“The Stromata,” by Clement of Alexandria, book 1, chapter 21, from “The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers,” edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, as found in its American edition edited by A. Cleveland Coxe,and as found online at http://www.ccel.org.)

Here we see that Clement, though he did not see the gap in the seventy weeks extending into his own future, as did both Irenaeus, who wrote before him, and Hyppolytus, who wrote after him, he also saw a short gap in the same prophey, putting the seventieth week in the time on Nero and Vespacian, nearly forty years after the end of the sixty-ninth week.

Since these are the only three surviving documents from this period that spoke of the subject, we see that this gap in the seventy weeks revealed to Daniel was not only indicated in the very text of the scriptures themselves, it was also taught by every Christian writer who commented on the subject in the first two centuries of the history of the church. (That is, of course, every such writer whose works have survived to the present day.)

The early church fathers did not get everything correct.

They failed to see that Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Matthew 26:28 are the "bookends" of Daniel 9:27.
Are we to believe the angel Gabriel "forgot" to mention the New Covenant already foretold by Jeremiah?


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

 
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Douggg

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As I understand it, Daniel is referring to the Mosaic covenant, aka the song of Moses, in Dan 9, not the Abrahamic covenant. The Mosaic covenant is the only conditional covenant and is read at the end of every 7 years.

3 Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. 4 I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5 we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7 To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you. 8 To us, O Lord, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him 10 and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God by walking in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned aside, refusing to obey your voice. And the curse and oath that are written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him. 12 He has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us and against our rulers who ruled us, by bringing upon us a great calamity. For under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what has been done against Jerusalem.

13 As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this calamity has come upon us; yet we have not entreated the favor of the Lord our God, turning from our iniquities and gaining insight by your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept ready the calamity and has brought it upon us, for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works that he has done, and we have not obeyed his voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and have made a name for yourself, as at this day, we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
That's why the curses are poured out, aka the 7 bowls of wrath, by trangressing with the antichrist and false prophet.
This 'song of Moses' is also referenced in Rev 15:3

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

2 And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire—and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. 3 And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

“Great and amazing are your deeds,
O Lord God the Almighty!
Just and true are your ways,
O King of the nations!
4 Who will not fear, O Lord,
and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”​

And it is literally 70 weeks which occurs after the 1260 days. (which is why 10 days + 150 days + 385 days + 1260 days + 3.5 days + 490 days [70 weeks] =2298.5 days rounds to 2299 leaving the 2300th day as the 1st day of the sanctuary being cleansed.)

24 Seventy weeks are decreed
about your people and your holy city—
to bring the rebellion to an end,
to put a stop to sin,
to wipe away iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most holy place.
25 Know and understand this:
From the issuing of the decree
to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
until Messiah the Prince
will be seven weeks and 62 weeks.
It will be rebuilt with a plaza and a moat,
but in difficult times.
26 After those 62 weeks
the Messiah will be cut off
and will have nothing.
The people of the coming prince
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end will come with a flood,
and until the end there will be war;
desolations are decreed.
27 He will make a firm covenant
with many for one week,
but in the middle of the week
he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.
And the abomination of desolation
will be on a wing of the temple
until the decreed destruction
is poured out on the desolator.”​

The 385 days (the 6th Trumpet's 1 hour, 1 day, 1 month, 1 Jewish lunar year) fits right in when the anointed one comes at the 7th week and then dies at the end of the 62nd week (62-7=55 weeks/ 385 days). Then the 7 year covenant is made.

As to the Climate covenant, there are many covenants that will be broken: Iran/ US, climate UN, Israel & US (3-20-13's "Unbreakable Covenant" that gets broken Aug 31, 2016. This particular day could be the start of the 6th Trumpet. We will know April 1, 2016 if there is some sort of 9-11 type event here (5 months prior)
Is this a post-trib tagged thread or not? I know several posters in this thread are not post-trib (including me, which I am only asking the question).
 
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tranquil

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Daniel was told, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." (Daniel 9:26) Here we have sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years, from the going forth of the commandment to Messiah the Prince. Some claim that there is historical evidence that the triumphal entry occurred exactly 483 years, to the day, after the signing of this order. I cannot personally testify as to the accuracy of this claim. But history indeed confirms that it occurred at approximately that time.

But now the Divinely inspired account contains a break. We read, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Daniel 9:25-26)

Two things were to happen after the sixty-two week second part of this account. And we know that both of them indeed happened exactly as explicitly stated. “Messiah” would “be cut off,” and “the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Messiah was indeed cut off, and the city and the sanctuary were indeed destroyed. We know from history that these two events did not happen within a seven year period. Most historians feel that our calendar is in error, and the actual date of Jesus’ birth was 4 BC. Since Jesus lived thirty-three years, that puts his death in 29 A.D. But the city was not destroyed until 70 A.D., forty-one years after that. So even if there are small errors in the accepted dates of history, we absolutely know that “the city and the sanctuary” were not destroyed in the same week (seven year period) that our Lord was crucified. But we need to notice that both of these events are presented before the last week is even mentioned. So here we see an absolutely undeniable break in the scriptural account of the seventy weeks.

But the last week is treated differently. It does not even say that this is the seventieth week. The only reason we know that it is the seventieth week is because all the rest of the weeks had already been used up. So this week had to be the seventieth one. We read, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

Now many imagine that this verse speaks of the cross. They want to interpret the word “for” in this verse as “in,” and claim that this was speaking of Jesus confirming God’s covenant with us “in” the seventieth week, and claim that Jesus was crucified at the middle of the seventieth week. But even if history were wrong by so many years, this interpretation does violence to the structure of the prophecy. For the last week is not even mentioned until after the two events that were to take place after the sixty-ninth week.

But an end time covenant that will not be fulfilled is clearly mentioned in other Old Testament prophecies. One of these is Isaiah 28:14-18, where we read, “Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.”
Again, in Isaiah 57:7-9 we read, “Upon a lofty and high mountain hast thou set thy bed: even thither wentest thou up to offer sacrifice. Behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance: for thou hast discovered thyself to another than me, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and made thee a covenant with them; thou lovedst their bed where thou sawest it. And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.”

So we see that the scriptures indeed clearly foretell a future covenant that God will not allow to be fulfilled. Daniel 9:27 is only one of several places where this covenant in mentioned.

Others imagine that the existence of this gap is a relatively new concept, first developed by the dispensational teachers of the nineteenth century. But this is an error. The oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length that has survived to the present day is the last ten chapters of the famous work by Irenaeus titled “Against Heresies,” which is believed to have been written between the years 186 and 188. In this work Irenaeus spoke of the reign of an evil ruler whom he taught would come in the future, calling him “Antichrist,” and saying:

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

So there can be no rational debate that Irenaeus taught that the last of the seventy weeks revealed to Daniel would be fulfilled in his own future, not in his past.
Something on the order of twenty or so years after Irenaeus penned these words, Hyppolytus wrote the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture that has survived to the present day. His work was a commentary on Daniel which is thought to have been written sometime between the years 202 and 211. Hyppolytus very clearly taught a gap in the prophecy of the seventy weeks, saying:

“For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world. After he comes, sacrifice and drink offering, which now in every way is offered by the nations to God, shall be taken away.” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 35.3, as translated by T. C. Schmidt, and as available online at http://www.chronicon.net.)

Later in this same work, Hyppolytus said:

“Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 50.2)

Again, Clement of Alexandria whose work is believed to have “been given to the world in 194 A.D., wrote, “That the temple accordingly was built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judæa was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, ‘the Holy of Holies,’ having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those ‘sixty and two weeks,’ as the prophet said, and ‘in the one week,’ was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.” (“The Stromata,” by Clement of Alexandria, book 1, chapter 21, from “The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers,” edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, as found in its American edition edited by A. Cleveland Coxe,and as found online at http://www.ccel.org.)

Here we see that Clement, though he did not see the gap in the seventy weeks extending into his own future, as did both Irenaeus, who wrote before him, and Hyppolytus, who wrote after him, he also saw a short gap in the same prophey, putting the seventieth week in the time on Nero and Vespacian, nearly forty years after the end of the sixty-ninth week.

Since these are the only three surviving documents from this period that spoke of the subject, we see that this gap in the seventy weeks revealed to Daniel was not only indicated in the very text of the scriptures themselves, it was also taught by every Christian writer who commented on the subject in the first two centuries of the history of the church. (That is, of course, every such writer whose works have survived to the present day.)

Every person here has seen this explanation a million times. Why don't you show where there is a 7 year period in Revelation. That would be interesting and insightful.
 
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BABerean2

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Is this a post-trib tagged thread or not? I know several posters in this thread are not post-trib (including me, which I am only asking the question).

Some people thought the New Tag system was a wonderful thing.
I have always opposed it.

Now the software forces us to pick a tag, even if we do not want one.

The gentleman's understanding now seems to be that it is up to the person who started the thread.

You need to ask Stephen...


.
 
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Douggg

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Some people thought the New Tag system was a wonderful thing.
I have always opposed it.

Now the software forces us to pick a tag, even if we do not want one.

The gentleman's understanding now seems to be that it is up to the person who started the thread.

You need to ask Stephen...


.
The rule is there for a reason. It is a great rule. And the tag system has greatly improved this forum.

If a person is forced to use a tag to start a thread, because the system forces it - then it is up to the opening poster to note in the opening post for participants to ignore the tag.
 
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stephen583

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Daniel 9:27 includes a break, separating the seventieth week from the previous sixty nine weeks. And EVERY Christian who wrote about this passage in the first two centuries of the church (and whose writings have survived to the present day) noticed this break.


And why is this "break" so significant ??? Why does it take you fifteen paragraphs to explain something so obvious ?!
 
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stephen583

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The significance of the break is that a careful analysis of the text makes it impossible that the seventieth week immediately follows the other sixty nine weeks.


I don't believe I read anywhere in this thread, where anybody ever stated the seventieth week immediately follows the other sixty nine weeks, did they ?
 
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