Futurist Only Damascus and animals

keras said:

You believe what church teaching has most always promoted. We trust our pastors and don't like to contradict what they say and what is believed by our friends, etc. But are they always right? Does the Bible clearly state these things?

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No that is not true .. I believe what I believe because of what I read in the scriptures .. Man may have taught me but I question people's teachings every day .. I'm questioning your teachings right now...

Do you believe that the Lord's people will live in New Jerusalem before it comes down to earth at the end of the Millennium? Revelation 21:2 &27 Note that NJ is made ready....for those whose names are entered in the Book of life.

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Yes I do....

New Jerusalem has not made herself ready to come to earth yet.. It's not ready to descend downward to earth yet...many are still finding the lord and so new Jerusalem is not filled with the saints yet.. But one day all whose names are in the book of life will be complete then new Jerusalem will be ready to descend to earth ..

It is the souls of the martyred saints that are kept under the heavenly Altar. Revelation 6:9
We are not told who the 'Elders' are.

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They are men casting their crowns upon the throne .. Angels do not wear Crowns ...angels do not sit on thrones

Where does it say that great multitude are in heaven? Note Revelation 7:1-3 sets an earthly scene, no mention of any change in location in that chapter at all. The great tribulation referred in Revelation 7:14 is the terrible ordeal of the Sixth Seal, not the G.T. that comes later.

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Revelation 7:13 an elder is talking to John ... This conversation is taking place in heaven .. John was taken to heaven and one of the 24 elders is talking to him explaining .. The elder ask John who are all these people here in heaven standing before gods throne in heaven ?

They have suffered tribulation for the name of Christ sake... As a reward they are before the throne of God and serve in his temple day and night .. This is heaven not earth ..

Nowhere does the Bible say the 144,000 go to heaven.

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The man child is caught up in heaven ..the man child is the 144000

Maybe, my guess is Moses and Elijah, but they could be any two righteous men living now.

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Enoch and Elijah would fit perfectly because they were taken to heaven and have witness many things ... And we know Elijah will be sent for sure

In future, please give scripture references to prove your points, as I said before speculation and guesswork are useless.

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Why? If I do , you and I will still end up interpreting what is says differently

Thanks Handmaid. We mustn't get into nasty disagreements.
But we are here to discus these important issues and although end times events may not affect our salvation; because the Bible has so much about what will happen, we should not be in the dark about them.

dfw69, I can see how it can be construed that the vast multitude are seen in heaven. It depends on the translation used but mainly on whether you believe in a rapture to heaven.
The rapture to heaven theory has many verses that allude to that possibility, but none that actually say such a thing is God's plan for His people.
His plans for humans is to have a people who freely choose Him and who keep His Commandments. The ancient Israelites failed in this and are now scattered among the nations. Since the advent of Jesus, the choice is open to anyone who accepts His atoning sacrifice, people from every tribe, nation, race and language are accepted and they are now His witnesses.
In my post #36, there are 25 prophesies saying how the Lord will once again bring His people together in all of the holy Land. People who chose Him, everyone whose names will be written in the Book of Life. Malachi 3:16-18
Malachi 3:1-7 is a very interesting passage; it says the Lord will refine and purify His people, so they will again be able to bring offerings into His Temple.
I, the Lord do not change, righteous people are as the sons of Jacob, under My protection.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Please you all let us not argue about it. We believe what we believe and there is no need to bite and tear at one another. One person understands the scripture one way, another person understands it another way ,so we agree to disagree and move on in peace. We all want people to believe the way we believe, but that is not going to happen. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to bring us all into unity at the appropriate time.And let's not insult each other's scholarship. That is such a carnal reaction.But we are not carnal, but spiritual beings in Jesus Christ. Amen!

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I'm not arguing sis..we good... I didn't think Keras was arguing with me either .. So far we been civil ..

keras said:

Thanks Handmaid. We mustn't get into nasty disagreements.
But we are here to discus these important issues and although end times events may not affect our salvation; because the Bible has so much about what will happen, we should not be in the dark about them.

dfw69, I can see how it can be construed that the vast multitude are seen in heaven. It depends on the translation used but mainly on whether you believe in a rapture to heaven.
The rapture to heaven theory has many verses that allude to that possibility, but none that actually say such a thing is God's plan for His people.
His plans for humans is to have a people who freely choose Him and who keep His Commandments. The ancient Israelites failed in this and are now scattered among the nations. Since the advent of Jesus, the choice is open to anyone who accepts His atoning sacrifice, people from every tribe, nation, race and language are accepted and they are now His witnesses.
In my post #36, there are 25 prophesies saying how the Lord will once again bring His people together in all of the holy Land. People who chose Him, everyone whose names will be written in the Book of Life. Malachi 3:16-18
Malachi 3:1-7 is a very interesting passage; it says the Lord will refine and purify His people, so they will again be able to bring offerings into His Temple.
I, the Lord do not change, righteous people are as the sons of Jacob, under My protection.

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I was working all day so I didn't have a chance to reply ..

Handmaid for Jesus said:

It was just a friendly reminder brother. Just so things stay civil.

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Oh ok ..will do..

The Holy Land – Depopulated and Desolated:
Many scriptures state how the Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land, Deuteronomy 32:43, to enable His righteous people to gather and settle there. This will happen before the Return, as they are designated to be His witnesses, to be a light to the nations and to send out 144,000 missionaries to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

Here are some of the prophesies that confirm how the Land will be virtually emptied:

Zephaniah 1:4-18 I shall stretch out My hand over Judah, over all that live in Jerusalem. On the Day of the Lord’s sacrifice, I shall wipe out all traces of idol worship and I will punish all those complacent people. All who commit crimes of violence and fraud will fall with a great crash. The great Day of the Lord is near and coming fast - His Day of wrath and distress onto the peoples. Their blood and guts will pour out like dung upon the ground and nothing can save them from the fire of His judgement. He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the holy Land.

Habakkuk 3:16-17….I long for the Day of Disaster to dawn over our enemies. [Then, after that Day -] The fig tree has no buds, the vine has no harvest…there are no sheep in the fold and no cattle in the stalls.

Ezekiel 15:8 I will make the Land a waste, for My people have broken faith.
Jeremiah 10:18…This time I shall throw out the whole population of the Land.

Ezekiel 21:3 Say to the Land: I am against you, I shall draw My sword of slaughter and make away with both the righteous and wicked alike.
Isaiah 10:23 The Lord will bring a final destruction upon the whole Land.

Isaiah 6:11-13…cities will be ruined, houses left without occupants and the Land will lie desolate and a waste. Only a stump remains – a holy seed. [In Jerusalem]
Zechariah 3:9 In a single Day, I shall wipe away all evil from the holy Land.
Amos 1:1-15, Amos 2:5 I shall send fire onto Judah, fire to consume their palaces.

Jeremiah 11:16 Once you were My people, now, with a great noise you will be burned and consumed. Luke 19:27
Isaiah 10:17-19 The Lord will become a fire that in a single Day will destroy His enemies. Suddenly the trees and pastures of His holy Land will be consumed, what will remain will be so few, a child could count them.

Jeremiah 9:21-22 Death has come to our towns, corpses lie like dung in the streets.
Joel 1:19-20…fire has consumed the pastures and burned every tree in the Land. All the streams have dried up.
Jeremiah 9:10-11 The Land is scorched and untrodden, not even birds or beasts remain. Jerusalem and the towns of Judah are ruined and uninhabited.
Jeremiah 33:10 Judah and Jerusalem lie in ruins, uninhabited by man or beast.
Jeremiah 4:26-28 I looked and the fruitful Land was like a desert, all its towns lay in ruins before the Lord’s fierce anger. The Lord says: The entire holy Land will be devastated, but I will not destroy it completely. The earth will mourn and the sky will be darkened, because what I have said I will do and I will not relent or change My plan. Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses condensed.

keras said:

The Holy Land – Depopulated and Desolated:
Many scriptures state how the Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land, Deuteronomy 32:43, to enable His righteous people to gather and settle there. This will happen before the Return, as they are designated to be His witnesses, to be a light to the nations and to send out 144,000 missionaries to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

Here are some of the prophesies that confirm how the Land will be virtually emptied:

Zephaniah 1:4-18 I shall stretch out My hand over Judah, over all that live in Jerusalem. On the Day of the Lord’s sacrifice, I shall wipe out all traces of idol worship and I will punish all those complacent people. All who commit crimes of violence and fraud will fall with a great crash. The great Day of the Lord is near and coming fast - His Day of wrath and distress onto the peoples. Their blood and guts will pour out like dung upon the ground and nothing can save them from the fire of His judgement. He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the holy Land.

Habakkuk 3:16-17….I long for the Day of Disaster to dawn over our enemies. [Then, after that Day -] The fig tree has no buds, the vine has no harvest…there are no sheep in the fold and no cattle in the stalls.

Ezekiel 15:8 I will make the Land a waste, for My people have broken faith.
Jeremiah 10:18…This time I shall throw out the whole population of the Land.

Ezekiel 21:3 Say to the Land: I am against you, I shall draw My sword of slaughter and make away with both the righteous and wicked alike.
Isaiah 10:23 The Lord will bring a final destruction upon the whole Land.

Isaiah 6:11-13…cities will be ruined, houses left without occupants and the Land will lie desolate and a waste. Only a stump remains – a holy seed. [In Jerusalem]
Zechariah 3:9 In a single Day, I shall wipe away all evil from the holy Land.
Amos 1:1-15, Amos 2:5 I shall send fire onto Judah, fire to consume their palaces.

Jeremiah 11:16 Once you were My people, now, with a great noise you will be burned and consumed. Luke 19:27
Isaiah 10:17-19 The Lord will become a fire that in a single Day will destroy His enemies. Suddenly the trees and pastures of His holy Land will be consumed, what will remain will be so few, a child could count them.

Jeremiah 9:21-22 Death has come to our towns, corpses lie like dung in the streets.
Joel 1:19-20…fire has consumed the pastures and burned every tree in the Land. All the streams have dried up.
Jeremiah 9:10-11 The Land is scorched and untrodden, not even birds or beasts remain. Jerusalem and the towns of Judah are ruined and uninhabited.
Jeremiah 33:10 Judah and Jerusalem lie in ruins, uninhabited by man or beast.
Jeremiah 4:26-28 I looked and the fruitful Land was like a desert, all its towns lay in ruins before the Lord’s fierce anger. The Lord says: The entire holy Land will be devastated, but I will not destroy it completely. The earth will mourn and the sky will be darkened, because what I have said I will do and I will not relent or change My plan. Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses condensed.

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The only reason I can think of for such devastation in the future upon the holy land has to be because Judah has produced a false messianic age ... As Jesus said in John 5:43 and in Mark 13:22

dfw69 said:

The only reason I can think of for such devastation in the future upon the holy land has to be because Judah has produced a false messianic age ... As Jesus said in John 5:43 and in Mark 13:22

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The real reason the holy Land will be devastated and depopulated, is to allow the Lord's righteous people to gather and go to live there. As dozens of prophecies tell us: Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Jeremiah 33:1-40 + Many other verses say how the Lord will send rain soon after His Day of wrath, that will make the Land blossom. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 36:8, Amos 9:13-15

keras said:

The real reason the holy Land will be devastated and depopulated, is to allow the Lord's righteous people to gather and go to live there. As dozens of prophecies tell us: Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Jeremiah 33:1-40 + Many other verses say how the Lord will send rain soon after His Day of wrath, that will make the Land blossom. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 36:8, Amos 9:13-15

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I agree ..but how this will take place is where you and I disagree

dfw69 said:

I agree ..but how this will take place is where you and I disagree

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The Bible prophets tell us how the Lord will clear and cleanse the holy Land. Believe them? I do.

keras said:

The Bible prophets tell us how the Lord will clear and cleanse the holy Land. Believe them? I do.

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Yes.. he will clear and cleanse the land from the false messianic age

dfw69 said:

Yes.. he will clear and cleanse the land from the false messianic age

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There is no such thing as a 'false Messianic age'.
The Leader of the soon to be established One World Govt will conquer New Israel, sit in the Temple and for 3 1/2 years force people to worship him. Then Jesus will Return and chain him up.
But the next prophesied event is the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations. Habakkuk 3:12, Psalms 110:5-6
THAT will clear and cleanse all the holy Land from the Nile to the Euphrates. Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 2:4-5

keras said:

There is no such thing as a 'false Messianic age'.

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Matthew 24:23-24
John 5:43

The Leader of the soon to be established One World Govt will conquer New Israel, sit in the Temple and for 3 1/2 years force people to worship him. Then Jesus will Return and chain him up.
But the next prophesied event is the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations. Habakkuk 3:12, Psalms 110:5-6
THAT will clear and cleanse all the holy Land from the Nile to the Euphrates. Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 2:4-5

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Just so I understand you correctly .. Who is new Israel ? And what temple are you referring to?

New Israel is the nation that bears fruit, Matthew 21:43, they will comprise the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, all true righteous believers who will travel to all of the holy Land soon after the Lord's Day of wrath. Isaiah 66:15-21, Ezekiel 20:34-38
They will build the new Temple to the specifications described in Ezekiel 40-44 and the Shekinah glory of God will come into it. Ezekiel 43:2 That Temple is mentioned by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1

keras said in post 31:

I know the premise of living in the holy Land is foreign to much church teaching . . .

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That's right, as is the idea of the living through the tribulation. But regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), for example, there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. And they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

keras said in post 31:

However, the Bible truth is that no one ever is taken live to heaven . . .

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That's right, with regard to the rapture taking the church into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b). For no scripture requires that the church will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

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keras said in post 36:

Although the Lord's true righteous people are often called by the names of Israel and Judah, we know from the NT that now refers to all believers, from every tribe, nation, race and language.

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Amen. For just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

dfw69 said in post 38:

New Jerusalem is in heaven that is the kingdom we seek not earthy Jerusalem and the promise land ...

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Presently, the kingdom of God is indeed in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all of the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

dfw69 said in post 38:

Yes Jesus will make a new covenant with the Jews in the last days . . .

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Note that the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is already fulfilled, even though the prior, millennial prophecy of Jeremiah 31:1-14,16-25 (Jeremiah 31:15 was fulfilled in the 1st century AD: Matthew 2:17-18) and the other millennial prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled. For the making of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31,33) was fulfilled at Jesus' crucifixion (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17), just as its being made with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31,33) has been fulfilled (Acts 2:5,36-41, Romans 11:1,17,24). And the New Covenant being not according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32) has been fulfilled (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17). And the New Covenant law of Jesus being written on the hearts of believers (Jeremiah 31:33) has been fulfilled (Romans 6:17, Ephesians 6:6, Galatians 6:2). And "they shall teach no more every man his neighbour" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:27). And "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:13). And "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:12).

dfw69 said in post 38:

Yes Jesus will make a new covenant with the Jews in the last days . . .

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Regarding "the last days", note that they began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' 1st coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' 1st coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

dfw69 said in post 38:

24 elders were seen in heaven on thrones not under the alter

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Note that the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

Also, note that the 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, note that the 24 elders sitting on thrones (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them from being angels. For if even the devil can sit on a throne (Revelation 2:13, Revelation 13:2b), then some angels can sit on thrones.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

Also, the 24 elders being called "elders" (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, even though angels don't age. For they can be a special group of elder angels simply in the sense of them having been created sometime before other angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because no other part of the Bible ever refers to angels as "elders". But this argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they wear crowns of victory. But in Revelation 4:4, the original Greek word (stephanos: G4735) translated as crowns doesn't have to always refer to a crown of victory, but can sometimes refer to a crown signifying "honor generally" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Also, angels can win victories (Revelation 12:7-9), and so can wear crowns of victory.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they perform physical acts (Revelation 4:10). But angels can perform physical acts, like how the 2 angels who rescued Lot and his family grabbed their hands to hasten them out of Sodom (Genesis 19:1,16).

dfw69 said in post 38:

A great multitude of all nations which no man could count was seen in heaven . . .

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That's right. And note that Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) require that the great multitude was raptured into heaven. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude could be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

dfw69 said in post 38:

144000 caught up to heaven

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That's right, for the woman in Revelation 12 giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

The 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel that they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

Handmaid for Jesus said in post 59:

This thread has drifted from the topic of the OP, so this is an attempt to bring it back to the topic.

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Regarding the OP:

Handmaid for Jesus said in post 1:

Isaiah 17:1
The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

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Damascus is said to be the oldest, continually-inhabited city on the earth. But it could be nuked by Israel during a future all-out war (Isaiah 17:1). Yet this war will also break the power of Israel (Isaiah 17:4).

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to prevent the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, or ISIL, or Daesh) from taking over Iraq, and Syria, and all the rest of the Middle East, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein), to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein's rule), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to defeat Islamic State, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform. For they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

Indeed, the current military brains of the Islamic State are former Iraqi Baathist generals who can't stand that the Iraqi government has come completely under the thumb of Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current viable bulwark against the Iranians and the Shiite Arabs taking control of all of Iraq and Syria. These generals could "defect" from serving Islamic State to serving a non-sectarian Iraqi Army drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which with secret Western assistance could completely overthrow the current Iraqi government, which is very weak and corrupt.

Once the Iraqi Baathists take back control of Iraq, in order to help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of a subsequent, all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, "false flag" operations could be managed by the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false "Messiah": cf. Matthew 24:24) could completely destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, in order to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

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Handmaid for Jesus said in post 59:

Right now the sun is very quiet, but the theory that Keras has about the sun imho is something worth watching. What do you all think?

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He could be right about a sun strike, yet mistaken as to when it will occur.

For he says that it will occur at the 6th seal, when actually the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

Handmaid for Jesus said in post 59:

Right now the sun is very quiet, but the theory that Keras has about the sun imho is something worth watching. What do you all think?

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The sun strike (like the death of all fishes) may not occur until the final stage of the tribulation, the 7 vials of God's wrath.

That is, the world won't experience the 7 last plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled. At the 1st vial, an awful sore will appear on only those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all natural, surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH God (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they have gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that is why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).