Can God Make 2+2=5?

Can God Make 2+2=5?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 37.5%
  • No

    Votes: 10 62.5%
  • Its more complicated, I explained above.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    16

dad

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Your jab at me is not nearly as subtle as you seem to think. And I'm pretty sure you vastly misunderstand Buddhism in its general form.
Are you suggesting you actually worship fat little statues that are deaf and dumb?
There are some forms that probably come close to worship, but if you're even remotely aware of the nuance Catholic Christianity brings up between veneration and adoration, you'd understand that it can reasonably be applied to Buddhism.
No, I am not in tune with the touchy feely emotions or strange thinking of folks who bow down to worship idols in any religion. You'll have to enlighten us.
The statues are not regarded as having power in themselves and Buddha is a title that is applied to others besides Siddhartha Gautama. His importance is as an example, similar to Christian saints, in that one can meditate on how to be more like them, not adore them on the level of a god.
In the bible a god is anything we put before Christ. A fat idol would qualify.
 
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dad

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Hi,

So, now you are saying science is not evil?

Which is it?

Or are you still trying to get around the Bible?

It seems it is the later for you.

You quote the Bible, but you will not follow certain parts of it.

LOVE,
Man's wisdom is small, and often evil. Especially the garbage stuff that blabbers on about how life or the universe got here.
 
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SkyWriting

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Well, then He would need to plan giving man scripture that says something opposite of that. He ain't like that.

He did pretty much describe that each moment was planned out from Alpha to Omega. Thanks!
 
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Smidlee

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If God creates principles, God cannot just violate them at will if it's remotely a deity that's meant to be trusted to be consistent overall.

Continuity is not dependent on religious beliefs to have coherence, that's my point. It can be believed in by religious and non religious: origin is irrelevant to its pertinence in a worldview overall.
Men is god in his own creations. God is violating the principles since He is the Creator. The Creator is not governed by His Creation.
 
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Smidlee

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There's still limitations in either case, because a God worth its salt as something representative of or the origins of principles like continuity and time/space, would not just negate and change them at a whim or at all in terms of an entity that, by its own revelation, does not change.

Minecraft analogy fails, because there's basic mathematical limitations in terms of the programming: just because you can use a creative mode doesn't mean all Minecraft players do, nor is it innate to the game, except in its wholeness.
God is more real than His creation just as we are more real than a computer program/game , movies, etc. We are gods when it come to our own creations. In Frost man can have a talking snowman enjoying the summer.
 
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PsychoSarah

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That's impossible, because the context is provided by link.
You are free to dispute the understanding and refer to
the same context if you wish.

But at your request, I'll do further research:
Hope you don't mind if I do some of my own. I have a friend with a much better bible translation that speaks Hebrew. The English translation is especially clunky, because the language of the text is just constructed very differently than English.

Revelation 19:6

"And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great." 6 Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. 7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.""

so... how does this context make god out to be literally omnipotent? Because it calls god "the Almighty"? That's a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you say? Your own source gives the context, by the way.
Ephesians 1:19

"I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,"

Again, how is this saying god is omnipotent? It certainly says he is powerful, but not literally capable of everything conceivable and inconceivable.
Daniel 4:35

""But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever; For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom endures from generation to generation.35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?' 36 "At that time my reason returned to me And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me."

Same problem as the previous two, and as for no one questioning the actions of god in the bible, that blatantly happens on multiple occasions within the text itself, so either it isn't literal, or you have to consider it to be a contradiction. For example, Moses questions why he has been chosen by god.
Isaiah 43:13

""It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God. 13 "Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?" 14 Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice."

So, no one can undo what god does, and no one can usurp the authority of god. Still, that doesn't mean that god is omnipotent, merely that it is the most powerful being in existence... by implication.
Isaiah 14:27

""This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations.27 "For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?" 28 In the year that King Ahaz died this oracle came:"

same implications as the previous quote; still doesn't say god can literally do everything.
Matthew 19:26

"When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?""

This is about people working with god, not god independently, and context drives it most towards salvation rather than items such as making a square circle, etc.
Genesis 18:14

"And the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?'14 "Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son." 15 Sarah denied it however, saying, "I did not laugh"; for she was afraid. And He said, "No, but you did laugh.""

Oh, look, my namesake. I always did find it funny how my name is associated with a character that doubted god until they fulfilled their promise. In any case, this is another case of redundant question implying, but never actually stating, the power of god. At best, this is a very weak argument for god being omnipotent, and it might be a problem of translation as well. It seems to me more like "Woman, I made a human out of the dust of the earth. Do you honestly think I can't make a person appear in your dusty old womb?" XD
Job 42:1-2
Then Job answered the LORD and said, "I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
This is Job making the claim, throughout this drilling, god gives specific examples of what it can do, asking if Job can do them. It goes on for a while over the course of a few verses. None of it supports this idea that the biblical god can defy logic and make 2+2=5, beyond, perhaps, changing what 5 represents.
Luke 1:37

""And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month. 37 "For nothing will be impossible with God." 38And Mary said, "Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her."

Similar to Genesis 18:14. You could take this as literally god can do anything, but the context doesn't lend to it very well. It makes for a weak argument, nor does it necessarily encompass everything. It's further complicated by the fact that the bible has two clashing accounts of angels coming down and explaining the coming of Jesus.
Acts 26:8

"he promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day And for this hope, O King, I am being accused by Jews.8 "Why is it considered incredible among you people if God does raise the dead? 9 "So then, I thought to myself that I had to do many things hostile to the name of Jesus of Nazareth."

Basically, just a person wondering why people doubt that god can raise the dead, and nothing else specific. It implies that god is so powerful, that no one should be shocked by this idea. But, it doesn't imply or state in any regard that god can to literally everything.
Jeremiah 32:27

"Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 27 "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?" 28 Therefore thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am about to give this city into the hand of the Chaldeans and into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and he will take it."

This seems like a common redundant question that god asks whenever people express doubts in general. It doesn't literally mean god can make a boulder so big even they cannot lift it. It's the biblical god equivalent of saying "I got this, no worries."
Deuteronomy 33:27
"The eternal God is a dwelling place, And "underneath are the everlasting arms; And He drove out the enemy from before you, And said, 'Destroy!'
"There is none like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to your help, And through the skies in His majesty. 27 "The eternal God is a dwelling place, And underneath are the everlasting arms; And He drove out the enemy from before you, And said, 'Destroy!' 28 "So Israel dwells in security, The fountain of Jacob secluded, In a land of grain and new wine; His heavens also drop down dew."

It says god is powerful, and has some other interesting traits, but not omnipotent. No one is questioning that the bible claims god to be powerful, but people are questioning the omnipotence claim. Thus far, the majority of your quotes cannot even be interpreted as saying that, and given the pattern of god dispelling doubt with the phrase "is anything too difficult for me?", it is unlikely that it literally means god could make a square circle, or some other such nonsense.
 
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katerinah1947

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Man's wisdom is small, and often evil. Especially the garbage stuff that blabbers on about how life or the universe got here.

Hi,

Well God said science is not evil. So, you are wrong.

Genesis 1:28, Do science.
Romans 13:1-5, Follow science.

Matthew 7:15-16, don't listen to mean people on anything, especially Biblical things.

'Man's wisdom is small', is mean.

'Often evil', is mean.

'Blabbers on', is mean.

'Garbage stuff', is mean.

@AV1611VET , at some point the Bible cannot be ignored.

It looks like @dad , I have to stop listening to you, if I want to follow God.

LOVE,
 
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SkyWriting

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Hope you don't mind if I do some of my own. I have a friend with a much better bible translation that speaks Hebrew. The English translation is especially clunky, because the language of the text is just constructed very differently than English.

"And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great." 6 Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. 7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.""

so... how does this context make god out to be literally omnipotent? Because it calls god "the Almighty"? That's a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you say? Your own source gives the context, by the way.
"I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,"

Again, how is this saying god is omnipotent? It certainly says he is powerful, but not literally capable of everything conceivable and inconceivable.
""But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever; For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom endures from generation to generation.35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?' 36 "At that time my reason returned to me And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me."

Same problem as the previous two, and as for no one questioning the actions of god in the bible, that blatantly happens on multiple occasions within the text itself, so either it isn't literal, or you have to consider it to be a contradiction. For example, Moses questions why he has been chosen by god.
""It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God. 13 "Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?" 14 Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice."

So, no one can undo what god does, and no one can usurp the authority of god. Still, that doesn't mean that god is omnipotent, merely that it is the most powerful being in existence... by implication.
""This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations.27 "For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?" 28 In the year that King Ahaz died this oracle came:"

same implications as the previous quote; still doesn't say god can literally do everything.
"When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?""

This is about people working with god, not god independently, and context drives it most towards salvation rather than items such as making a square circle, etc.
"And the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?'14 "Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son." 15 Sarah denied it however, saying, "I did not laugh"; for she was afraid. And He said, "No, but you did laugh.""

Oh, look, my namesake. I always did find it funny how my name is associated with a character that doubted god until they fulfilled their promise. In any case, this is another case of redundant question implying, but never actually stating, the power of god. At best, this is a very weak argument for god being omnipotent, and it might be a problem of translation as well. It seems to me more like "Woman, I made a human out of the dust of the earth. Do you honestly think I can't make a person appear in your dusty old womb?" XD
This is Job making the claim, throughout this drilling, god gives specific examples of what it can do, asking if Job can do them. It goes on for a while over the course of a few verses. None of it supports this idea that the biblical god can defy logic and make 2+2=5, beyond, perhaps, changing what 5 represents.
""And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month. 37 "For nothing will be impossible with God." 38And Mary said, "Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her."

Similar to Genesis 18:14. You could take this as literally god can do anything, but the context doesn't lend to it very well. It makes for a weak argument, nor does it necessarily encompass everything. It's further complicated by the fact that the bible has two clashing accounts of angels coming down and explaining the coming of Jesus.
"he promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day And for this hope, O King, I am being accused by Jews.8 "Why is it considered incredible among you people if God does raise the dead? 9 "So then, I thought to myself that I had to do many things hostile to the name of Jesus of Nazareth."

Basically, just a person wondering why people doubt that god can raise the dead, and nothing else specific. It implies that god is so powerful, that no one should be shocked by this idea. But, it doesn't imply or state in any regard that god can to literally everything.
"Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 27 "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?" 28 Therefore thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am about to give this city into the hand of the Chaldeans and into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and he will take it."

This seems like a common redundant question that god asks whenever people express doubts in general. It doesn't literally mean god can make a boulder so big even they cannot lift it. It's the biblical god equivalent of saying "I got this, no worries."
"There is none like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to your help, And through the skies in His majesty. 27 "The eternal God is a dwelling place, And underneath are the everlasting arms; And He drove out the enemy from before you, And said, 'Destroy!' 28 "So Israel dwells in security, The fountain of Jacob secluded, In a land of grain and new wine; His heavens also drop down dew."

It says god is powerful, and has some other interesting traits, but not omnipotent. No one is questioning that the bible claims god to be powerful, but people are questioning the omnipotence claim. Thus far, the majority of your quotes cannot even be interpreted as saying that, and given the pattern of god dispelling doubt with the phrase "is anything too difficult for me?", it is unlikely that it literally means god could make a square circle, or some other such nonsense.

Taken together, it works to create a whole concept.
The big picture is something I excel at.
 
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muichimotsu

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God is more real than His creation just as we are more real than a computer program/game , movies, etc. We are gods when it come to our own creations. In Frost man can have a talking snowman enjoying the summer.
Methinks you're confusing more real with more aware: inanimate objects don't have awareness, particularly if they're inorganic in nature. Your argument boils down to God being more aware: that doesn't mean God is above the principles underlying reality, unless you just want to make special pleading for God as something above time and space, in which case why would one even care about it at all?
 
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muichimotsu

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Men is god in his own creations. God is violating the principles since He is the Creator. The Creator is not governed by His Creation.
Then you have a God that is seemingly not governed by anything but its will, which creates the contradiction of God's nature of being consistent. Your god is purely transcendent, whereas a God that makes technical sense would be something more panentheistic, both within the universe in a sense, immanent, and yet going beyond in as well, without there being a technical contradiction.

A God that embodies principles of time and space should not be able to negate them beyond basic rationality: turning water to wine is not even remotely comparable to making 2+2=5 or making the definition of a square anything but a 4 sided shape
 
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muichimotsu

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Are you suggesting you actually worship fat little statues that are deaf and dumb?
No, I am not in tune with the touchy feely emotions or strange thinking of folks who bow down to worship idols in any religion. You'll have to enlighten us.
In the bible a god is anything we put before Christ. A fat idol would qualify.
Not sure where you even remotely deduced such a ridiculous idea. Quite the contrary, I worship nothing, because worship idolizes and creates a sense of clinging, which is antithetical in my worldview.

Somehow I doubt some of the others in this discussion are nearly so obfuscating or intentionally contrarian as yourself and are aware of the nuance between seeing someone as worthy of imitation and meditation upon their lives versus viewing them as worthy of putting on a proverbial pedestal and seeing as worthy of worship.

Idols can be inanimate and abstract as much as concrete and animate.
 
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muichimotsu

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Therefore science should not ignore history and scripture and their own real limits in knowledge when it is presented to them. I agree.
Not in the case of lies and man's wisdom versus God's.
Reason must be known before any twisting can be done.
There were so many truly holy mean and actual martyrs, that it is obscene to deny their record.
Forget the notion the world cannot change in a moment. That is borderline crazy.
One can only follow present state physical only laws as far as they go. To do more is fantasy. The thing is to know where they start and stop. Science has no clue.
If teleportation does not involve ignoring usual laws, praytell how does it work!?

Science is about acknowledging that, not sure where you're getting any implication they aren't

I wasn't talking in an absolute and broad sense, the context is fairly clear in the bible anyway

Reason is not some monolithic thing that only monotheists have, it's objectively found in a variety of human thought over the centuries

Science has more clue than you think: admitting that they need to change paradigms in some sense is not adjusting on a whim, but with compelling evidence

The basic notion, from what I understand, is starting with moving small particles through a process that involves moving at near light speed. We could go from that to further analysis and a similar motion of particles by the Star Trek model where you break someone down, analyze the composition and make a reference point and then reconstitute the particles elsewhere after moving them as data or such, perhaps. I never claimed to be a scientist, don't put words in my mouth or insinuate something I never claimed regarding my knowledge
Denying their record isn't what I'm doing, merely that what they conclude is actually the truth. Perception is not an absolute measure for the verification of something, not to mention that one's conclusions regarding the nature of something can be flawed if they don't have a mote of objectivity and humility to admit they might be leaping to conclusions regarding something being supernatural in origin

The world changes, but it still has consistency and order underlying it. Of course a meteor could just crash in my backyard, that's not remotely comparable to your idiocy of saying God can just make fire cold instead of hot
 
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muichimotsu

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Gods are designed to do the impossible, if their abilities are limited then how can they be considered to be Gods.
Omnipotence should not ever be posited in a way that undermines reason or you can't make any claims about belief in God as being rational or having compelling arguments, such as the cosmological or teleological arguments still parroted today.
 
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muichimotsu

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If you are claiming that those words have anything to do with the big bang that is foolish.
If there is structure, why is it a stretch to say God was the one who designed said structure? Or is the teleological argument bunk to you, perhaps? That's be unusual in theological terms
 
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dad

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Hi,

Well God said science is not evil. So, you are wrong.

Genesis 1:28, Do science.
Romans 13:1-5, Follow science.
False. That has zero to do with either real science or modern so called science. Science is lower wisdom from below mostly when it comes to the anti creation baloney.
God's sheep know His voice and the lying antiChrist anti creation voice of satan in science today they flee!

Joh 10:5 -And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Matthew 7:15-16, don't listen to mean people on anything, especially Biblical things.
Eph 3:9 -And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Do you think it is mean to rebuke so called science lies saying God did not create?


'Man's wisdom is small', is mean.
No, it is Scripture 101 and basic reality.

1Co 1:19 -For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Co 1:20 -Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 1:21 -For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 1:25 -Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 3:19 -For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.








'Often evil', is mean.
If you are calling all that science gives us, including womd, and lies about creation good, woe to you.
'Blabbers on', is mean.
No, Jesus talked of some folks who went far and wide blabbering..

Mt 23:15 -Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
'Garbage stuff', is mean.

Jude 1:8 -Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

No, calling filth filth is great! Science is about filthy dreams of doubt and evil to a large measure.

It looks like @dad , I have to stop listening to you,
Listening?? Ha. Yeah right. Welcome to your delusions.
 
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dad

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Not sure where you even remotely deduced such a ridiculous idea. Quite the contrary, I worship nothing, because worship idolizes and creates a sense of clinging, which is antithetical in my worldview.
I did not deduce I asked a question based on your reactions.

Idols can be inanimate and abstract as much as concrete and animate.
Great. Anything we put before God then.
 
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dad

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If there is structure, why is it a stretch to say God was the one who designed said structure?
The universe sailing out of a hot soup speck and later resulting in the earth, is not structured, it is a foolish dream with no real basis and contrary to the way Scripture records creation.
Or is the teleological argument bunk to you, perhaps? That's be unusual in theological terms
Perhaps if you post this teleological argument, we can register it on the bunk scale.
 
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Science is about acknowledging that, not sure where you're getting any implication they aren't
How could science acknowledge history and scripture when these contain a lot of spiritual? You do realize science is only about the physical?

Reason is not some monolithic thing that only monotheists have, it's objectively found in a variety of human thought over the centuries
Says you. I submit that the word was misused. The reason that exists without God is minimal, and untrustworthy.
Science has more clue than you think: admitting that they need to change paradigms in some sense is not adjusting on a whim, but with compelling evidence
No. Science is clueless about God and creation and origins of life. Utterly devoid of wisdom.
The basic notion, from what I understand, is starting with moving small particles through a process that involves moving at near light speed. We could go from that to further analysis and a similar motion of particles by the Star Trek model where you break someone down, analyze the composition and make a reference point and then reconstitute the particles elsewhere after moving them as data or such, perhaps. I never claimed to be a scientist, don't put words in my mouth or insinuate something I never claimed regarding my knowledge
Have you some indication this is what happened to Philip? I think you are guessing.

Denying their record isn't what I'm doing, merely that what they conclude is actually the truth. Perception is not an absolute measure for the verification of something, not to mention that one's conclusions regarding the nature of something can be flawed if they don't have a mote of objectivity and humility to admit they might be leaping to conclusions regarding something being supernatural in origin
That's a little too vague to respond to.
The world changes, but it still has consistency and order underlying it. Of course a meteor could just crash in my backyard, that's not remotely comparable to your idiocy of saying God can just make fire cold instead of hot
The 3 Hebrew young men did not burn in the fire. Go figure...guess God can do stuff.
 
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