Pope's Authority? Is it legit?

All4Christ said:

Could you clarify what you mean?

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I mean that on some issues it is difficult to discern what Orthodoxy teaches and opinions vary between different Orthodox Christians when I ask. That is not to say that differing views are unique to Orthodox Christians because many Catholics differ on various issues so there's no precedent for expecting complete unanimity among Orthodox Christians. There is also, as Cappadocious notes in an exaggerated form, no equivalent (in Orthodoxy) to the Catechism of the Catholic Church as far as I am aware. So sometimes I wonder if there us such a thing as an Orthodox position or if such a thing as an Orthodox position is even a useful concept when it comes to matters not clearly defined in the canons of the oecumenical councils that all the Orthodox bishops recognise and agree are oecumenical. A similar observation can be made with respect to Protestantism (for lack of another word that embraces the major movements that arose after 1521 AD in Western and Central Europe).

Cappadocious said:

Probably that since we don't have a CCC and Pope we must be a frothing mess of opinions set adrift.

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I can't help but noticed both the exaggerated form of your comment and the little wink at the end of it. Why did you type it?

MoreCoffee said:

I mean that on some issues it is difficult to discern what Orthodoxy teaches and opinions vary between different Orthodox Christians when I ask.

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Which issues would those be?

MoreCoffee said:

I can't help but noticed both the exaggerated form of your comment and the little wink at the end of it. Why did you type it?

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To be a sassy retort.

Not having a CCC or Supreme bishop is something we consider a uniting strength, rather than a weakness.

Kobbern said:

Its more on how you interpret it that leads to the truth. Like if you really believe if the original aramaic word was Cephas? or if it was something else. That is something which is why some considers orthodoxy. However... i thought this on my own. But having Cephas written in Paul's Gospels must have had an importance on him. And seeing how "you are peter quote with the church" doesnt make it unlikely. So for that reason i am gonna join the catholic church, i would however if they found an original gospel in aramaic older than the greek and it said another word. Then i would likely switch. But from now on, i'll become a catholic. But i hope catholics wont accept gay marriage as protestants have.

The values are declining i feel. But nice talk.

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Kobbern, glad to help you clear up some of your concerns. Concerning the Catholic Church accepting gay marriage, well I can comfortably tell you that this will never happen. No one in the Church does not have the authority to do such a thing.

Kobbern said:

Basically ^^

Who do i PM? Thx btw.

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There is a "contact us" at the bottom of the profile page.

May the Lord be with you in your journey Kobbern.

prodromos said:

Which issues would those be?

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Let's not derail this thread any more than it has already been derailed with extraneous issues.

I know you just said to not derail the thread, but since you brought these points up, I will reply to a few items.

MoreCoffee said:

I mean that on some issues it is difficult to discern what Orthodoxy teaches and opinions vary between different Orthodox Christians when I ask. That is not to say that differing views are unique to Orthodox Christians because many Catholics differ on various issues so there's no precedent for expecting complete unanimity among Orthodox Christians.

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OK.

A clarification: There are ranges of opinions on some issues, within acceptable boundaries. However, core doctrine and dogma are consistent.

There is also, as Cappadocious notes in an exaggerated form, no equivalent (in Orthodoxy) to the Catechism of the Catholic Church as far as I am aware. So sometimes I wonder if there us such a thing as an Orthodox position or if such a thing as an Orthodox position is even a useful concept when it comes to matters not clearly defined in the canons of the oecumenical councils that all the Orthodox bishops recognise and agree are oecumenical.

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There are many doctrines that are consistently agreed upon by the Orthodox church outside of just ecumenical councils. Tradition is not solely the ecumenical councils and the Bible in the Orthodox Church. The beliefs in our Church are consistent despite (and perhaps because) of the structure of the Church. Yes, we do not have the Pope, but that doesn't change the fact that across the world, Orthodox theology is the same.

A similar observation can be made with respect to Protestantism (for lack of another word that embraces the major movements that arose after 1521 AD in Western and Central Europe).

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I hope you don't mean to say that Orthodox Christian have as wide of a range of beliefs as Protestants? Protestants (and all others in those movements) have a wide range of beliefs.

Just because we don't support the current role of the Pope doesn't mean that we don't have consistent beliefs. It is an erroneous conclusion to consider the Pope to be a necessary component for consistency of faith. While other issues you don't want to discuss here may be outside the realm of the thread, this issue is relevant to this discussion.

You are an unusual fellow, sir.

Well you are always going to have those who follow the world over God. That will always be the case. But take comfort that our Faith will not change. Gender Identity heresy has come and eventually it will go, and the Church will remain the pillar and foundation of truth.

The perfect example is the recent synod on the family. Everyone was hoping and many were expecting the Church to change its stance on gays and divorce, given that we have this perceived liberal pope, and yet what we get is reaffirmation of our age old beliefs.

MoreCoffee said:

Let's not derail this thread any more than it has already been derailed with extraneous issues.

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You rang?

@All4Christ,

Opinions vary about what is a core doctrine (or dogma) within the various Orthodox communities. And what are acceptable boundaries for varying beliefs would vary also within various Orthodox communities, would they not? Our Protestant brethren also assert unanimity, as you did, on core beliefs for themselves. Are they less justified in that claim than you?

The existence of the popes is not the only reason for the existence of things like the Catechism of the Catholic Church but it helps. Papal authority and the operation of the curia does give the Catholic Church a final earthly authority for disputed matters. It is like a court of final appeal when all other avenues have been tried and debate has been exhausted (or unfruitful) then the curia and the pope can be appealed to for a decision. Of course the Holy See can choose to hear or not hear a particular case/matter just as a high court (or in the case of the USA a supreme court) might.

In my opinion the existence of things like the CCC is good and helpful/beneficial for the faithful within the Catholic Church. I do not know what Orthodox Christians think of compendiums of Church teaching but to me having such documents available helps both in instructing Catechumens (and Candidates) and in settling matters of debate in forums such as this. I do not mean to say that in a debate between a Catholic and somebody from some other tradition the matter can be settled by an appeal to the CCC but for Catholics between themselves it ought to and for those outside of the Catholic Church the CCC ought to provide helpful information about Catholic teaching - of course some use snippets from the CCC to create a fight, I've seen that happen often enough, but when it is rightly used the CCC is informative and useful. So I am inclined to think that a similar document (or documents) from the Orthodox communities would be helpful in similar ways but I wonder if it is possible to conceive of such a document being created by current Orthodox leaders and if such would be accepted by all if it were created.

I can't write long as I have to head out to work, so I will respond to part of your post

MoreCoffee said:

@All4Christ,

Opinions vary about what is a core doctrine (or dogma) within the various Orthodox communities. And what are acceptable boundaries for varying beliefs would vary also within various Orthodox communities, would they not? Our Protestant brethren also assert unanimity, as you did, on core beliefs for themselves. Are they less justified in that claim than you?

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It is very different, as is evident by schisms when beliefs change in Protestant Churches. The Orthodox Church has thousands of years of unity vs many Protestant groups forming when a group disagrees with the direction their church is going. The beliefs in the Orthodox Church also stay the same. Core beliefs are much more minimalistic in many Protestant Churches. The range of acceptable beliefs in Orthodoxy is much less stringent in most Protestant churches.

I'm actually quite surprised that you think we are equivalent to Protestants in this statement. Not many Catholics I know think that if they are aware of Orthodoxy.

No offense intended to other Protestants intended.

Perhaps this may help: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7063

Also, while we do not have one single catechism, there are some approved by local synods and jurisdictions. You can look at them and see the consistency across them all. After all, they are just describing the same teachings that been passed down to us all through the safeguarding of the Church and Holy Tradition.

An example is "These Truths We Hold":

http://sttikhonsmonastery.org/about_orthodoxy.html

You said you don't want to derail the thread with the inconsistent beliefs you see in the Orthodox Church. Would you be willing to have a friendly discussion in the St Justin Martyrs subforum?

It appears that you've read a great deal into my post that is not there and thus concluded that I think that Orthodox Christians are much the same as Protestants as far as frequency of divisions and depth of theological differences is concerned. This is not the case.

All4Christ said:

I can't write long as I have to head out to work, so I will respond to part of your post



It is very different, as is evident by schisms when beliefs change in Protestant Churches. The Orthodox Church has thousands of years of unity vs many Protestant groups forming when a group disagrees with the direction their church is going. The beliefs in the Orthodox Church also stay the same. Core beliefs are much more minimalistic in many Protestant Churches. The range of acceptable beliefs in Orthodoxy is much less stringent in most Protestant churches.

I'm actually quite surprised that you think we are equivalent to Protestants in this statement. Not many Catholics I know think that if they are aware of Orthodoxy.

No offense intended to other Protestants intended.

Perhaps this may help: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7063

Also, while we do not have one single catechism, there are some approved by local synods and jurisdictions. You can look at them and see the consistency across them all. After all, they are just describing the same teachings that been passed down to us all through the safeguarding of the Church and Holy Tradition.

An example is "These Truths We Hold":

http://sttikhonsmonastery.org/about_orthodoxy.html

You said you don't want to derail the thread with the inconsistent beliefs you see in the Orthodox Church. Would you be willing to have a friendly discussion in the St Justin Martyrs subforum?

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MoreCoffee said:

It appears that you've read a great deal into my post that is not there and thus concluded that I think that Orthodoxy Christians are much the same as Protestants as far as frequency of divisions and depth of theological differences is concerned. This is not the case.

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Ok. When you asked: "Our Protestant brethren also assert unanimity, as you did, on core beliefs for themselves. Are they less justified in that claim than you?", it sounded like you were asking if they were equivalent in that.

I apologize for reading it incorrectly. That said, the frequency of divisions and depth of theological differences are the reasons why I believe we are more justified in that claim that I quoted above.

That said, thank you for clarifying that.

I asked anticipating an answer along the lines of "yes, we are more justified for so saying because ..." or "No, we too have divisions and some cause much animosity and even deep divisions for example ...". You answered with a "yes" and have stated your reasons. That is helpful and may lead to fruitful discussions in the future. But I ought to add that I asked because I have spoken to people from ROCOR, Russian Orthodox, GOC, Serbian Orthodox, several from Coptic Orthodox, as well as Armenian Orthodox and there are matters on which differences are voiced (especially between the remnant ROCOR people and the Russian Orthodox). And I have heard several quite different perspectives on papal authority and papal claims from Orthodox Christians ranging from condemnation of Catholicism as schismatic and heretical to quite affirmative views about the role of the pope and an almost wistful desire for union. Once more I ought to caution that Catholic Christians also have varying views on Orthodoxy and that some think in negative terms of schism and heresy while others are very positive and desirous of good relations. I myself tend towards the desire of union and positive opinions on Orthodoxy but I cannot pretend that others within my own communion do not differ nor that some are not negative despite the hierarchy (including his holiness the pope) expressing warm benevolence and deep desires for eventual union.

I've read many of the posts in this thread and I see some differences here too. So I conclude that unanimity is not present within Orthodoxy regarding papal claims and papal authority. Where does the Hierarchy within each Jurisdiction (community) stand on the matter I wonder and where the people?

All4Christ said:

Ok. When you asked: "Our Protestant brethren also assert unanimity, as you did, on core beliefs for themselves. Are they less justified in that claim than you?", it sounded like you were asking if they were equivalent in that.

I apologize for reading it incorrectly. That said, the frequency of divisions and depth of theological differences are the reasons why I believe we are more justified in that claim that I quoted above.

That said, thank you for clarifying that.

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Cappadocious said:

Please do not attempt some sort of scripted apologetic. RC are supposed to respect reason and have a higher standard than evangelicalism; by engaging in such low, manipulative, evangelical-style apologetics, you are reducing your church to a mere sect.

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Surely the conclusion you've offered is absurd because an individual cannot reduce a whole faith community to sect status simply because you dislike the style of his/her apologetic. I noticed also that @All4Christ liked your post and that makes me wonder what part of it was liked?

MoreCoffee said:

Surely the conclusion you've offered is absurd because an individual cannot reduce a whole faith community to sect status simply because you dislike the style of his/her apologetic.

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You are reading my comment in a rather tone-deaf way.

If I said, "Movies like Gods of Egypt make a mockery out of cinema," You wouldn't think I was claiming there is a simple entailment relation between Gods of Egypt coming out and cinema being a mockery.

Cappadocious said:

You are reading my comment in a rather tone-deaf way.

If I said, "Movies like Gods of Egypt make a mockery out of cinema," You wouldn't think I was claiming there is a simple entailment relation between Gods of Egypt coming out and cinema being a mockery.

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I was moderate in my critique of your post by referring only to the conclusion and refraining from mentioning the route taken to reach it in post #26. Specifically, you wrote "Please do not attempt some sort of scripted apologetic. RC are supposed to respect reason and have a higher standard than evangelicalism" which is insulting language directed against evangelicalism and against Thursday (your interlocutor). You also wrote "by engaging in such low, manipulative, evangelical-style apologetics" which is very offensive on all sorts of levels. You concluded with the remark that I pointed out, namely "you are reducing your church to a mere sect" which I described in a previous post (#138) as an absurd conclusion for the reasons I stated in that post. As far as I am able to tell from the posts preceding #26 Thursday asked some questions and engaged in some comment on what he thinks is implied by some verses and some ideas.

Papal authority is not determined by what is written in the holy scriptures alone nor by comments offered by some early church fathers but by a far larger and admittedly contentious reading of history and the early church fathers as well as the holy scriptures and unwritten Apostolic Tradition. Our faith communities differ on these matter I do not doubt - though I do not know the specifics of your faith community nor its hierarchy's published views on the matter, and I am not hereby asking for them to be presented .

All4Christ said:

I don't believe that the position and role the Pope holds today is the same as the leadership position Peter held.

Peter was not infallible. In fact, he accepted correction from Paul. Peter did not assert absolute spiritual authority over the other apostles. Peter did not create make doctrinal decisions alone.

I also believe that you take those scriptures to a level higher than they were intended. Even if your understanding of those scriptures is 100% correct, it doesn't entitle the Pope to have the level of authority (and related Papal functions) that the Pope has today.

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Peter was not infallible and nor is the current pope nor any pope that preceded him because infallibility is an attribute of specific statements and not a guarantee of personal correctness in every situation and for every statement. Infallibility applies to statements made by church councils and approved by the holy see too yet few within the ancient churches dispute the infallibility of the canons and creeds produced by ecumenical councils, which makes me wonder why the infallibility present in papal statements is disputed while the infallibility present in the creeds and canons of ecumenical councils is not.