The Tower of Babel

Xalith

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There is only one race of people: the human race.

And God is not a respecter of persons. At least, not during the Age of Grace (which is just about over). After the Age of Grace, He's going to turn His eyes once again on the holy people He chose, Abraham's direct descendants.

Even right now RL, there's a call for Jews to return to Israel, and you got lots of rabbis saying that the Messiah is very close to arriving.
 
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radhead

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And God is not a respecter of persons. At least, not during the Age of Grace (which is just about over). After the Age of Grace, He's going to turn His eyes once again on the holy people He chose, Abraham's direct descendants.

Even right now RL, there's a call for Jews to return to Israel, and you got lots of rabbis saying that the Messiah is very close to arriving.

For someone who identifies as Non-Denominational, those are some pretty strong and strict beliefs. It's no wonder that so many people can't take religion seriously.

I'm convinced that it is religious thinking which has always led to wars. Which inspired the Nazis. Which has led to the modern nation called Israel and the conflicts in that region. It's all the same thing.

There are probably more Christians concerned with Israel than Jewish people living in the rest of the world who just want to live their lives and don't want to be a part of a race divided by religion.
 
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There are probably more Christians concerned with Israel than Jewish people living in the rest of the world who just want to live their lives and don't want to be a part of a race divided by religion.
¡¡¡ JERUSALEM !!!
 
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ChetSinger

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True, I'm not trying to take our responsibility from us when we act in a racist manner. I would never suggest that any sane individual is not responsible for his own actions. But that doesn't mean that there is never an outside source exerting force on our actions. So the question isn't about what we chose to do as a result of God's actions, it is what did God want our actions to be as a result of His actions. And I would say that he wanted us to not get along so well, according to the story.
I'm willing to take the text as it is: God told people to spread out over the earth, and when they refused to do it he forced them. The tower-building ceased when the builders could no longer communicate with one another.

Again, true. But isn't it too late for that? In all practicality, there's no ending racism completely. Even though this is likely what God wants Christians to strive for, there's no turning back for the world from the road that we've been on for 3000 years. Since not every person is going to be a Christian, and let's face it, not everyone who claims to be a Christian is not going to be a racist, the divisiveness that God started will never go away completely.
Yes, but I think there's an even bigger picture to see: as I read the NT, sin itself will not go away until this age has been completed.

Btw, even when we share a language we're still divisive. Consider the US Revolutionary and Civil wars, for example. I think it's just our human nature.
 
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Xalith

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For someone who identifies as Non-Denominational, those are some pretty strong and strict beliefs. It's no wonder that so many people can't take religion seriously.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding Non-Denom, but I thought Non-Denom was simply "The Bible, as it is written" and "not affiliated with any specific denomination"?

The Bible tells you that God is not a respecter of persons during the Age of Grace (from Jesus until the End Times) and that after Jesus pulls His people out, Revelation is written full of Jewish terms.

Most of the New Testament is written in terms Gentiles would understand, until a specific point in Revelation where the book takes a sudden shift to Jewish terms. Why do you think that is?

Well, obviously, the events that take place after that shift are directed at the Jews.

In fact, the entire purpose of the Tribulation is to push Israel into a corner to where they have to finally accept their Messiah and ask Him to come and save them, which He ends up doing. As soon as that happens, He comes down, saves Israel and gets rid of the people who refuse to repent, the people attacking Israel (the Bible says that nearly the whole world will be against them in the end).

I think too many Christians forget that God made an unconditional promise to Abraham that his (and Isaac's) seed will live forever. I think if we look at history and look at what Israel has been through both in biblical history and in more modern recorded history, surely somewhere would think "there's something special about these guys, that they keep bouncing back no matter what! It's almost like they're invincible or something..." They aren't invincible, they just happen to be protected by God.

I'm convinced that it is religious thinking which has always led to wars. Which inspired the Nazis. Which has led to the modern nation called Israel and the conflicts in that region. It's all the same thing.

"Always" led to wars? What religious thinking caused GW Bush to invade Iraq? Unless you're going to call oil and money worship "religious thinking". What caused the USA Civil War? One side wanted to secede from the Union, and the Union obviously wanted none of it, and the south wanted to keep slaves while the north thought slavery was wrong. I'm not seeing the religion there?

There are probably more Christians concerned with Israel than Jewish people living in the rest of the world who just want to live their lives and don't want to be a part of a race divided by religion.

That's why there are Jews trying to get back to Israel, their homeland, right? If they really "didn't care", then why are they trying to go back?
 
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Moral Orel

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I'm willing to take the text as it is: God told people to spread out over the earth, and when they refused to do it he forced them.
I can agree that not spreading out could be part of it. He said spread out, they didn't spread out, so He spread them out. But in order to take the text as it is, you have to consider all of the text. And this being the theory, that the only reason He confused the language and scattered them was because they didn't scatter, ignores Him stating their working together as a problem.

He wouldn't have needed to confuse their language if He wanted them to spread out either. People of that time didn't have the means to travel long distances, and especially not if they were plopped down with little to no supplies somewhere far away. Once He scattered them, by and large they would have no choice but to settle there instead of trying to get back.
 
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Moral Orel

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I'm convinced that it is religious thinking which has always led to wars.
I'm going to have to agree with our Christian friends. It isn't religious thinking that drives people to war, money is probably the largest cause. That isn't to say that people don't use religion to support their claim that war is necessary, or that God wants them to go to war, but it isn't religion's fault.
 
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radhead

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I'm going to have to agree with our Christian friends. It isn't religious thinking that drives people to war, money is probably the largest cause. That isn't to say that people don't use religion to support their claim that war is necessary, or that God wants them to go to war, but it isn't religion's fault.

It's the fault of greed which is practically synonymous with politics and religion. Fear and greed are what cause men to want money and power. It's what causes them to create a god in their image to justify war. Religion is the ORIGIN of all war.

Do you really think that people have never gone to war because their "god" told them to.

Have you never read the book of Joshua?? Or any of the OT stories?? Have you listened to the Republicans lately??
 
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peepnklown

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I always found the story of the Tower of Babel to be strange and I wanted to inquire what other thoughts about it might be.

You most likely find the tale strange because it’s taken from other sources and is not original to the author/s who wrote the Torah. You have the tale of Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta (Sumerian myth). This is the foundation of the Genesis tale. It was written during the time of the Neo-Sumerian Empire (the ruling dynasty was based in the city of Ur; sound familiar?). Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian, etc all basically followed the same religious beliefs and practices (syncretism was involved as well). Mesopotamian religious beliefs and practices as well as Egyptian religious beliefs and practices have always influenced the Israelites/Hebrews. The tale also most likely was influenced by the ziggurat, Etemenanki. The etymological error most likely came from the Hebrew term babal (mixed, confused, etc) with the Akkadian term babilu (Gate of God). In the end, you’re asking a question that cannot be answered by Jews or Christians because it’s not their tale.
You need to look to Mesopotamia.
 
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Xalith

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It's the fault of greed which is practically synonymous with politics and religion. Fear and greed are what cause men to want money and power. It's what causes them to create a god in their image to justify war. Religion is the ORIGIN of all war.

Do you really think that people have never gone to war because their "god" told them to.

Have you never read the book of Joshua?? Or any of the OT stories?? Have you listened to the Republicans lately??

Some people war just because they hate each other.

Religion doesn't cause war, hate does. Hate and anger. Also, pride and greed.
 
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ChetSinger

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It's the fault of greed which is practically synonymous with politics and religion. Fear and greed are what cause men to want money and power. It's what causes them to create a god in their image to justify war. Religion is the ORIGIN of all war.

Do you really think that people have never gone to war because their "god" told them to.

Have you never read the book of Joshua?? Or any of the OT stories?? Have you listened to the Republicans lately??
When I look at the wars of which I have some knowledge such as WWI, WWII, the Korean war, the American Revolutionary and Civil wars, the Spanish-American war, the population purges of Stalin and Mao, etc., I don't see them driven by religion. They're driven by a desire for territory, power, or wealth.

Sure, some wars do have significant religious justifications such as the Thirty Years War and the current Sunni/Shia civil war in the Mideast. But from what I can see, they are the exception, not the rule.
 
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Xalith

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When I look at the wars of which I have some knowledge such as WWI, WWII, the Korean war, the American Revolutionary and Civil wars, the Spanish-American war, the population purges of Stalin and Mao, etc., I don't see them driven by religion. They're driven by a desire for territory, power, or wealth.

Sure, some wars do have significant religious justifications such as the Thirty Years War and the current Sunni/Shia civil war in the Mideast. But from what I can see, they are the exception, not the rule.

Well, one can argue that Nazi-ism is a religion of sorts. Hitler was trying to exterminate the Jews because of bigotry, and he wanted to set up a "super-race" of "perfect" (lol) humans (that whole Aryan thing). Granted, most people (including myself) think Hitler was absolutely bonkers, and as a Christian I would have to say that Hitler was actually getting his orders from none other than Satan, but meh. That's neither here, nor there. It's a whole can of worms I'll not open in this thread.
 
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AV1611VET

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Have you never read the book of Joshua?? Or any of the OT stories?? Have you listened to the Republicans lately??
Have you ever read about a scientist named Thomas Malthus?
radhead said:
Religion is the ORIGIN of all war.
Not according to Mr. Malthus.

War (along with famine, pestilence, earthquakes, tornadoes, etc.) is Mother Nature's way of keeping the population in check.
 
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Moral Orel

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Have you never read the book of Joshua?? Or any of the OT stories?? Have you listened to the Republicans lately??
I have read a lot of those stories, yes. But because I don't believe in God I don't believe God told them to do those things. I believe that they wanted more stuff, saw more stuff over there, and used religion to motivate their people to go get said stuff for them.

Republicans are a different story. Personally, I think it is all a sleight of hand to keep our attention focused on what's going on over there to keep us from noticing what they're doing over here (take take take take take).
 
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radhead

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No one seems to understand what I'm saying. Religion makes greed and hatred okay. If God is shown to be hateful and bigoted, then they should be that way too. It's written in the book that their God wrote. Their God gives them a license to be the same way that he is. They all agree together that God wrote certain things, so they can be bigoted and hateful because it is considered "holy".
 
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AV1611VET

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No one seems to understand what I'm saying. Religion makes greed and hatred okay. If God is shown to be hateful and bigoted, then they should be that way too. It's written in the book that their God wrote. Their God gives them a license to be the same way that he is. They all agree together that God wrote certain things, so they can be bigoted and hateful because it is considered "holy".
I'm glad we are not a religion.
 
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