Purgatory?!?!?!?!

jjoel · Mar 3, 2003

Would someone PLEASE explain purgatory to me? 

1. Where is this found biblically?

2. If Christ has already paid for our sins with his death on the cross, then why must one go to purgatory?

3. From what I understand people in purgatory must do deeds of some sort.  If thats true to get into heaven then how does that compare to Ephesians 2:8-9?

Thanks, I'm just really confused on this whole subject.  I kinda get "maybe" answers but nothing really straight foward! Thanks

 

jjoel

fragmentsofdreams · Mar 3, 2003

Today at 09:18 PM jjoel said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688658#post688658)

Would someone PLEASE explain purgatory to me? 

1. Where is this found biblically?

2. If Christ has already paid for our sins with his death on the cross, then why must one go to purgatory?

3. From what I understand people in purgatory must do deeds of some sort.  If thats true to get into heaven then how does that compare to Ephesians 2:8-9?

Thanks, I'm just really confused on this whole subject.  I kinda get "maybe" answers but nothing really straight foward! Thanks

 

jjoel

I'll let one of the bigshots take on 1 and 3. In the meantime, I believe it is supported by a verse from 2 Macabees.

2. Here is a useful analogy. To remove impurities from metal, metalsmiths place it in a crucible and melt it the metal seperates from the impurities. In the same way, the soul must be purged of the impurity of sin before entering Heaven. Jesus' sacrifice opened the gates of Heaven. Purgatory is the washroom that one may go to on one's way in.

ZooMom · Mar 3, 2003

Today at 10:18 PM jjoel said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688658#post688658)

Would someone PLEASE explain purgatory to me? 

Sure.

Purgatory is not a place, it is a process. It is where we undergo our final purification before entering the Beatific Vision.

1. Where is this found biblically?

Click to expand...

As with the doctrine of the Trinity, Purgatory isn't spelled out as such, but is instead implicit in the full context of the Scriptures. There are verses that do make reference to it, though.

Luke 12:
58 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison.
59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. "

1 Corinthians 3:
13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.

2. If Christ has already paid for our sins with his death on the cross, then why must one go to purgatory?

Purgatory isn't an addition to Christ's Work, it's the completion of it. The final purification. Christ's Blood was not shed to 'cover' our sins. It was shed to wash them completely away. If you cover a pile of poo with cloth of gold, it might look pretty but it still stinks. Our final purification cannot happen while we are living, but it must happen before we are presented before God, so...when does it happen?

3. From what I understand people in purgatory must do deeds of some sort.  If thats true to get into heaven then how does that compare to Ephesians 2:8-9?

Deeds? These people are being refined. I don't know if souls in Purgatory can *do* anything. *We* are asked to pray for *them*, that they may pass through swiftly and be united with God. Purgatory isn't a second chance at Heaven. Only souls on their way to Heaven pass through Purgatory.

Thanks, I'm just really confused on this whole subject.  I kinda get "maybe" answers but nothing really straight foward! Thanks

 

jjoel

HTH! Peace be with you! :wave:

ZooMom · Mar 3, 2003

Today at 10:36 PM fragmentsofdreams said this in Post #2 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688687#post688687)

I'll let one of the bigshots take on 1 and 3. In the meantime, I believe it is supported by a verse from 2 Macabees.

2. Here is a useful analogy. To remove impurities from metal, metalsmiths place it in a crucible and melt it the metal seperates from the impurities. In the same way, the soul must be purged of the impurity of sin before entering Heaven. Jesus' sacrifice opened the gates of Heaven. Purgatory is the washroom that one may go to on one's way in.

Oh, yeah. I'm a big shot now. Look out!

jjoel · Mar 3, 2003

Purgatory isn't an addition to Christ's Work, it's the completion of it. The final purification. Christ's Blood was not shed to 'cover' our sins. It was shed to <B>wash them completely away</B>.

If Christ's blood washed sins completely away then again why do we need purgatory?  Once we accept his blood aren't our sins past present and future already washed away? (Concidering that we are truly are born again)

Deeds? These people are being refined. I don't know if souls in Purgatory can *do* anything. *We* are asked to pray for *them*, that they may pass through swiftly and be united with God. Purgatory isn't a second chance at Heaven. Only souls on their way to Heaven pass through Purgatory

/me scratches head

ok so all soul that go to purgatory go to heaven? and where are we command or asked to pray for them? thanks

Theresa · Mar 3, 2003

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0041.html
(The Burning Truth about Purgatory- Curtis Martin)

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm
(How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants- James Akin)

Theresa

ZooMom · Mar 3, 2003

Today at 10:55 PM jjoel said this in Post #5 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688740#post688740)

If Christ's blood washed sins completely away then again why do we need purgatory? 

Because as long as you are living you continue to sin. Very few of us are fortunate enough to die in a state of perfect Grace.

Once we accept his blood aren't our sins past present and future already washed away? (Concidering that we are truly are born again)

Good question. Have you accepted Christ's Sacrifice? Do you still sin? If you answered 'yes' to both, then how many times do you think you should be 'washed'? We, as believers, cannot sin with impunity. There are consequences. One is that sin leaves a mark on us that only God can remove. He removes these 'marks', through Christ's mediation, by Baptism, by Reconcilliation, and by Purgation (Purgatory). One mark of sin that we know is indelible and will never be removed is the mark of blasphemy. And Scripture tells us that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or in the world to come. Does that not indicate that there are other things that *can* be forgiven 'in the world to come'.

ok so all soul that go to purgatory go to heaven? and where are we command or asked to pray for them? thanks

Yep. Since any soul that happens to be in Purgatory is by default part of the Body of Christ, we can easily find numerous passages in Scripture that exhort us to make intercessions for each other always. Here are some.

Romans 12:5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

1 Corinthians 12:12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Romans 15:30 I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me.

2 Corinthians 1:11 as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our[1] behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.

Ephesians 6:18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone--

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Peace be with you.

chelcb · Mar 4, 2003

It is our sin attachment that purgatory removes. If we die while still attached to sin then we are not ready to be in heaven where there is no sin.

Our sins are forgiven no two ways about it, Christ blood washed them clean of any guilt, but the attachment remains, the consequence remains, the damage that it caused to our disposition and to our soul remains.

We do not have a need of forgiveness for our sins, that has been taken care of, but we have a need to repair the damage that sin caused to our souls.

Impatience, selfishness, bitterness etc. These things are a result of sin and they do not just go away. We need to grow in the theological virtues if we are going to repair the damage that sin causes. Acts of love can purify our souls and dispositions that causes indifference towards our neighbor and God's commandments.

Purgatory is a process, it is a continuation of our spiritual journey, being made in the image of Christ. Once we pass from this world in Christ, we are justified 100% we are saved, OSAS. But if we have not been fully conformed to Christ image, then purgatory is where we can accomplish this.

Kotton · Mar 4, 2003

Some folks think the Blood of Christ washes us clean of all sin at the second of our conversion, Others think the Blood of Christ continually washes the believer clean as he/she sins. Perhaps, purgatory is the place, time the the Blood of Christ washes us clean of all sin-kind of at the instant of death. Purhaps as this cleansing occures the sinner becomes aware of just how his/her sin was offensive to GOD and this knowledge results in a kind of suffering-as many do as they repent of thier sins. Perhaps the fire of cleaning is just a metaphore for the Washing in the Blood. Perhaps not? The Bible talks about our robes being washed in the Blood of the lamb- that the Bride of Christ is cleansed and washed-perhaps Purgatory is the anti-room to heaven, where the Bride is, with love, prepared for her wedding. Only in the fact of the cleansing does she become truly aware of just how dirty she was, and how much she owes to her wonderful groom. If so the question would be who would want to hurry the process?

Mrs. Kotton

jjoel · Mar 4, 2003

/me scratches head

Ok, so let me get this straight. I've always been told that Christ's death was so that believers wouldn't have to go to a place like paradise. Paradise was a place for the people who did the lamb sacrifices cause lambs blood could only COVER sins. Christ was the spotless lamb. He paid the penalty for sin. All we must do is believe that he is Jesus the Son of God. Before I get jumped on about Christian's who are hypocrites I might add that the bible talks about Christians being "born again" and a "new creature" (or creation, i know its a "C" word).
ok uhhh. anywayz. so wasn't Christ's death so we didn't have to go into an "inbetween" place like paradise or purgatory? i mean partially that was the reason right?

chelcb · Mar 4, 2003

Joel,

You are invited to a party. You have you ticket to get in. You ARE going to the party. You notice your suit, your all whit suit as a stain on it , are you going to want to go to the party with a stain on your suit or do you want it to be spotless? Purgatory is not an inbetween place, it is a stop along the way to clean all the stains off before we go to the party looking our best.

ZooMom · Mar 4, 2003

Today at 09:47 PM jjoel said this in Post #10 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=691028#post691028)

jjoel scratches head

Ok, so let me get this straight. I've always been told that Christ's death was so that believers wouldn't have to go to a place like paradise. Paradise was a place for the people who did the lamb sacrifices cause lambs blood could only COVER sins. Christ was the spotless lamb. He paid the penalty for sin. All we must do is believe that he is Jesus the Son of God. Before I get jumped on about Christian's who are hypocrites I might add that the bible talks about Christians being "born again" and a "new creature" (or creation, i know its a "C" word).
ok uhhh. anywayz. so wasn't Christ's death so we didn't have to go into an "inbetween" place like paradise or purgatory? i mean partially that was the reason right?

Purgatory isn't a resting place, a stopping place, or an 'inbetween' place. It's not a 'place' at all. It's a *process*. It is a purgation of any vestiges of sin we retain after our death. Christ's Sacrifice is what makes this purification possible. I don't know how else to explain it.

I kind of think (and this is not Doctrine, just the musings of my own poor brain) of Purgatory as a state of perfect contrition. I am capable now of being very contrite for my sins. Of course, that is limited to the sins that I am aware of and the immediate, personal ramifications of those sins. I have a very hard time imagining what it would be like to *know* exactly how bad I am, how many people I hurt and to feel their hurt as my own, how I have wronged God and to feel His sorrow and pain over it. Oh, boy. A cleansing fire, indeed. I want that. As perverse as it may sound. I want to feel that cleansing and know that there are no festering darknesses left. I want to be spotless and blameless before God. And by His Grace, and with the help of my Lord Jesus, I can try to give Him as few spots as possible to clean out.

Peace be with you.

chelcb · Mar 4, 2003

IOW, Joel- If you die in a state of grace in Jesus' friendship you will merit heaven.

But what if you strongly dislike your boss when you die and you never really grew to get over your strong dislike?

You will still dislike him at death, the act of death will not change that.

What do you do because you are not condemned, you are saved, justified by the blood of Jesus but nobody in heaven has a strong dislike for others, they are perfect up there as God is perfect.

Purgatory is a process of purification, riding the soul of it's effects of sin, making it perfect.

jjoel · Mar 4, 2003

Ok, so basically you believe when we're "saved" Christ's blood doesn't immediately cleanse your sins for the rest of your life?

and relating God and a Boss huh? How can you be saved and not dislike God? maybe im being confused by that whole analogy. does anyone have anymore verses about purgatory? or that can tie into this?

jjoel · Mar 4, 2003

ok im re-reading the posts. so. Christ's blood doesn't immediately wash your white stains out? i mean he knows everything you're ever going to do. he knows who will remain true, who is a liar, and who will struggle. so why doesn't he just wash our future sins too? he's all knowing.

chelcb · Mar 4, 2003

Ok, so basically you believe when we're "saved" Christ's blood doesn't immediately cleanse your sins for the rest of your life?

Christ blood cleans us of original sin and any and all confessed mortal sins, it cleans us of all our imperfections with out asking. But the effects that the sin leaves behind has to be removed. We can do that here but if we don't and are justified we can do it in purgatory. 

and relating God and a Boss huh? How can you be saved and not dislike God? maybe im being confused by that whole analogy. does anyone have anymore verses about purgatory? or that can tie into this?

I meant your earthy boss! It was an example...we can say your next door neighbor if it will lessen the confusion.

What I was getting at was our imperections that we have at death. They don't just go away, they have to me removed, purified.

chelcb · Mar 4, 2003

Today at 10:28 PM jjoel said this in Post #15

ok im re-reading the posts. so. Christ's blood doesn't immediately wash your white stains out? i mean he knows everything you're ever going to do. he knows who will remain true, who is a liar, and who will struggle. so why doesn't he just wash our future sins too? he's all knowing.

 

You are confusing forgiveness with sanctity. Our sins are forgiven it is the sin effects that needs to be removed in us or we can not behold the beatific vision. 

 

Axion · Mar 4, 2003

Today at 04:26 AM jjoel said this in Post #14

Ok, so basically you believe when we're "saved" Christ's blood doesn't immediately cleanse your sins for the rest of your life?

No. This is a clear error. Christians still continue to sin, and need forgiveness for that sin.

The Apostle Paul, righteous though he was, was conscious that not all sin had been purified from within him "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me." Rom 7:19-20).

'pursue the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord (Heb. 12:14)

1 Cor 9: 27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

Hebrews 10: 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that DOES NOT lead to death, HE should pray, and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death.
There IS a sin that leads to death. I am not saying he should pray about that.

Christians sins are clearly not all forgiven in advance.

and relating God and a Boss huh? How can you be saved and not dislike God? maybe im being confused by that whole analogy. does anyone have anymore verses about purgatory? or that can tie into this?

Click to expand...

It's not a question od "disliking" God. Purgatory is demanded by the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God.

Revelation 21:27 states that nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

God can have NO SIN IN HIS PRESENCE. Christians still sin every day. None of us is perfect, and our sin is real and must be truly eradicated, not just "covered up."

Therefore a change must occur in all of us sinners after death, and before we can come into the presence of God. This is unavoidable, and this change, this cleansing occurs in PURGATORY.

'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; 33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' 34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart." (Matt. 18:23-35)

In this passage Jesus tells a parable to illustrate the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, comparing God's treatment of us in heaven to the master and his servant on earth. So here he is talking about a punishment beyond death, that is a TEMPORARY PUNISHMENT, not permanent and eternal punishment, as in Hell.

"For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13* each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15* If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." (1 Cor. 3: 11-13)

We know that if someone goes to hell, he will not be saved, so 1 Corinthians cannot be talking about Hell. We also know that if someone goes to Heaven, he will not suffer, so this passage is not talking about heaven. It is talking about the purification or purging away of sins in purgatory.

To be 'tested by fire' is a Biblical theme indicating purification:

"Remove the dross from the silver, and out comes material for the silversmith." (Pr 25:4)

"I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, They are my people, and they will say, The Lord is our God." (Zech 13:9).

"But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap." Mal. 3:2.

So, Purgatory is actually very simple:

1. God will not have sin in his presence. (Revelation 21:27)

2. If we say we have no sin in us, we are liars. (1 John 1.8)

3. Even though we are Justified, we must still be Purified BEFORE we can enter God's presence or we would continue to sin in heaven.

jukesk9 · Mar 5, 2003

Yesterday at 10:28 PM jjoel said this in Post #15

ok im re-reading the posts. so. Christ's blood doesn't immediately wash your white stains out? i mean he knows everything you're ever going to do. he knows who will remain true, who is a liar, and who will struggle. so why doesn't he just wash our future sins too? he's all knowing.

Well for starters, Catholics believe it is possible to lose salvation.  Christ's death redeemed us making salvation possible.  When He died, He paid the price for our sins.  All God asks of us is to believe in His Son. So, now it's up to us to confess Him as Lord so that we may become saved.  Those who don't profess faith in Christ, even though Jesus died for them too, more than likely wind up in Hell (I don't say concretely who's in Hell or not because only God judges). 

When we sin, we strain our relationship with God.  If we don't repent of sin, how then do we mend our relationship?  Keep in mind we don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved.  So we must repent of our sins and turn away from them.  And when we repent of our sins, God forgives them.  So what about the sins we don't repent of and we die with their stain?  They are purified by the process of Purgatory. 

The Book of Revelation states that nothing profane can be in the divine Presence. Where God is, there can only be pure and perfect love (Rev. 21:27). 

If you are a believer in OSAS, then I can see how you have trouble understanding Purgatory.  What I hope you walk away with from this discussion is this understanding:

1)  Purgatory is not another place but a process

2)  Purgatory does not make Christ's sacrifice insufficient, rather Purgatory is a result of Christ's sacrifice

3)  It is not an invention of the Middle Ages.  Early Church writings show prayers for the dead by Christians were around since the 1st Century 

4)  Catholics do base this practice on Scripture

Hoonbaba · Mar 5, 2003

Hi Joel,

I'll try to address this as best I can.  Because of God's grace, we are saved (Eph 2:8-9), but we're also being saved (1 Cor 1:18), and if we stand firm to the end, will be saved (Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13).  Salvation is entirely by grace.  However, God requires that we continually abide in Christ or else we'll be cut off (John 15:1-6).  Does this make sense so far?

Catholics do not teach that one can earn his or her salvation as if salvation is not by grace.  but they do teach that a believer must walk with the lord.  If they walk away from God (i.e. returning to a sinful lifestyle), then they're putting themselves in danger.  They do not teach that if you believe in Jesus you have 100% guarantee into heaven, since Jesus makes it very clear that if a 'Christian' does not bear any fruit out of love for God and love for others, then he or she will be cut off (again check out John 15:1-6).

Now, let's say I sinned.  How would God deal with this?  Well, I'd say that God will forgive me, however, I must bear the consequences of sinning against God (i.e. punishment).  You might wonder:  hey is that biblical?  Well, it happened to King David (2 Sam 12:13-14). 

And if you're still wondering why God would do such a thing, the answer lies in Hebrews 12:5-11.  God wants to discipline us so that we can grow and bear more fruit.  and if a believer dies without being fully 'purged' from their sins, this is where purgatory comes in, since nothing impure can enter the presence of God (Rev 21:27).  Also Hebrews 12:22-24 says that our brethren in heaven are perfected, which may imply that all believers are to be purged of sin prior to entering heaven.

Hope that helped =)

-Jason

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