Orthodox view on Marriage, submission, roles, and family

ArmyMatt said:

"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord" (Eph 5:22). yes, I would say He does for a healthy marriage. St Paul does not phrase it like a request or suggestion.



depends on if the husband is upholding his end of things. if he is not being like Christ, and sacrificing and doing every decision out of service to her as Christ does the Church, then there is already a break. in that case, it depends on the couple and the desire for repentance on whoever is offending, which would be case by case and for a pastor to deal with (ie I dunno, and am not going to pretend that I do).



I get what you are saying and it seems like you are trying to avoid slipping to a domineering husband who is an overlord of the wife (which happens way to often). but to say that the husband is not the head of the house is not backed up in Scripture. the question is how is he the head, and what does that mean for the Christian?

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I would not say the husband is not the head. Just that this does not mean he is the final say.

All4Christ said:

So how does this translate into real life?

What does submission in an Orthodox Christian marriage mean to you?

Do you feel that we women have a responsibility to be the ones to take care of the home, and to stay home with children? Or does an Orthodox Christian marriage often 'look' like an egalitarian marriage, with the understanding that if something was to occur where an agreement can't be made, that the husband would have the final say?

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Being an unmarried male the opinions expressed in this post can only go as far as one can throw them.

Men and women in Orthodoxy are equals. If the Lord wanted women to be lower than men than He would have fashioned Eve from Adam's foot and NOT his rib. We forget this. The West forgets this. I don't know my Greek history as well as my Russian, but I remember hearing that it was not unusual for Cossack women to join their husbands in war. I watched a series on Netflix about 14 differing personal accounts from WWI including one Marina Yurlova who was a fourteen year old Cossack soldier in the Caucuses after trying to follow her father into war. Even during WWII there were many very successful women soldiers, including some good snipers fighting the Nazis.

Anyway, I think we get so wound up in roles that we forget the job of raising kids to be productive members of society, good Orthodox Christians and so forth. Getting married usually means the eventual raising of a family which, from what I hear, takes a considerable bit of effort. Sometimes in this raising of kids there's probably a difference of opinion or two along the way.
I think that no matter how "fair and equal" the sexes are supposed to be there is still somebody that has to hold the tiebreaking vote. Traditionally that's usually been the husband. Lord help if I'm ever married one day I hope to be a good husband and father that has an active role in child rearing and not someone who merely "helps out" on occasion when they're feeling generous.

gzt said:

I would not say the husband is not the head. Just that this does not mean he is the final say.

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then what makes him the head as opposed to the wife?

Being the head is much more complicated than just being "the decider" (as Bush would put it). Being the head involves leadership, it involves doing what is right for whole family, it involves this world and the world to come, it involves love, understanding and humility. Just having the "last say" doesn't make one the head - what makes one the head is speaking the truth in love.

I think #5 just isn't necessary and is in fact harmful to the relationship. I mean, huge doses of humility are great, but but the rest of that sentence, I don't that's what the husband needs to be a "head". To be the head means he's on top of the neck.

Women are inclined towards a more dominant man. Men who marry domineering women just become miserable at the end. It's really just nature, no need for rules.

I am single and the amount of women that complain how they have to always make the plans of which restaurant to go to what places to go, ticks them off. Trust me women love it when you tell them that the man is to walk towards the streetside of the sidewalk and women towards buildings side when they walk side by side.
There are certain times men need to stand up and take control, and if you don't, she will tell you "be a man".

Kristos said:

Being the head is much more complicated than just being "the decider" (as Bush would put it). Being the head involves leadership, it involves doing what is right for whole family, it involves this world and the world to come, it involves love, understanding and humility. Just having the "last say" doesn't make one the head - what makes one the head is speaking the truth in love.

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I know, that is why I said the husband must do everything to serve the wife, and sacrifice for her. Christ shows that He is the head of the disciples when He washes their feet.

Good morning!!

MARRIAGE: THE GREAT SACRAMENT – ELDER AIMILIANOS OF SIMONOPETRA MONASTERY, HOLY MOUNT ATHOS, GREECE

Coming into this one late.
Speaking as a veteran of almost a quarter-century of marriage (we mark it this coming fall), I wish I could just post a link and walk away. As far as understanding men, women, the home, children, and work, I have found nothing more helpful than this: http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/whats_wrong.html
Is it in line with our Tradition? I think absolutely, yes.
It would make my post unbearably long to try to encapsulate how first men, then women, then finally the children are all forced out of the home by the modern forces of big government and big business, and the effective death of Yankee entrepreneurialism and independence as the rule, rather than an exception in public life.
The shortest answer is that we need to be able to describe the human ideal. If you can't do that, you can't effectively talk about what to do, because you can't give us the address we want to get to, so to speak. That's what the book deals with. The ideal home and family, and what stands in the way of making it happen understanding those things would eliminate a lot of the questions being thrown around here. Understanding why human tradition generally has women raising the young children (aside from the boring materialist explanations) helps. Keeping in mind that there are always exceptions to the rule, but that that doesn't invalidate the rule, Chesterton posits the idea of man as a natural specialist and woman as a natural universalist. The idea hits you from an unexpected angle, and when he lays it out, you're like, "Duh. Why didn't I see that?" See part 3, Feminism, ch II ("The Universal Stick")

I'm tempted to address previous posts, but I'll pass - though I think the head means the one who should be taking the leadership, the husband - and as has been said, setting aside his wants and desires for the sake of the family. Submitting means accepting that leadership, and not trying to usurp it when one thinks one "knows better". You can't always have egalitarian life; sometimes you have to choose one path or another, and when you really can't agree, somebody has to submit, or else you have anarchy, not Christian marriage. Sometimes you really need a head that acts like a head. The Scriptural imagery is not just flowery or meaningless verbiage.

The real trouble, even when you've worked through all that, is figuring out how to deal with a marriage where your spouse is not committed to the Pauline injunctions: a husband that will not love in self-sacrifice, or a wife that will not submit and is always "grabbing the steering wheel". But I think that if even one of the spouses obeys and does what they should, and bears the rest, God will bless that effort and the marriage.

Cappadocious said:

Should wives ignore their consciences in their submission to the head?

You'd probably say no. So you know, there's not much left for ol' head to do.

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I would like the answer to that. What if the husband wanted her to do something sinful? What if the husband wanted to get into wife swapping for example? Should she submit to her husband in that case?

Also, the verse about wives submitting to their husbands has often been abused in Christianity, especially by the Evangelicals. If this verse is going to be quoted, the entire passage needs to be quoted, including St. Paul's admonition to the husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, would basically mean that you would sacrifice yourself for your wife, as Christ served and sacrificed Himself for the Church. In too much of Christianity, it is all about the woman doing whatever her husband tells her to do. I've heard women being told they shouldn't come to church, if their husbands don't want them to come. All too often, the admonition to the husband isn't even taught.

Cappadocious said:

On another board we have a very intelligent woman who can't go to the Orthodox Church because "hubby only let's her once a month."

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Ummm would you be talking about me? That is the current arrangement I have with my husband. Once a month we go where *I* want to go. The reason for that arrangement is to go gently with my husband. I do not want this to become a wedge between us. It already pains him that I refuse to join the Quaker meeting we attend 3 out of 4 Sundays, but why would I join a meeting I wouldn't even attend if the choice were mine alone? I can't, in good conscience, join a meeting where a recorded minister is allowed to stand up and renounce the virgin birth and resurrection as "stories."

Although now that our local parish is also having Divine Liturgy on Wednesday night, I do go to that a little more often. My biggest concern is my husband will try to say there is no need for me to ever go on Sunday morning since I can go on Wednesday night. But, Wednesday night is not the same as Sunday morning - different people are there, there is no homily, no coffee hour....

ZaidaBoBaida said:

Although now that our local parish is also having Divine Liturgy on Wednesday night, I do go to that a little more often. My biggest concern is my husband will try to say there is no need for me to ever go on Sunday morning since I can go on Wednesday night. But, Wednesday night is not the same as Sunday morning - different people are there, there is no homily, no coffee hour....

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I would only point out here, and forgive me if this seems out of line, but the reason to go to Church is to participate in the sacramental life of the Church. I would talk to your husband and priest about Wednesdays, and then see about homilies and such on AFR, and then see what social functions the Church has on different days. maybe that could spark something in your husband. maybe it's something to consider?

He comes with me on occasion, but it would be a long slow process to draw him in. He is very invested in Quakerism.

And I'm not yet allowed to partake in the sacraments since I have not formally joined. I'm taking my time.

ZaidaBoBaida said:

Ummm would you be talking about me?

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Nope, it was the husband putting his foot down and giving permission in the situation I'm talking about.

There was a period of time some months back that my husband had to work every single weekend - both days - for about 2 months straight. I went to the Orthodox church by myself during that time. So, on one Sunday that he came with me, he was observing that people were calling me by name and generally acting like I belonged there. I could tell he didn't like that, and I was very concerned he was going to put his foot down and say, "No more." So far, he has not done that, but I have also honored my part of our agreement that I will go with him 3 Sundays out of 4.

I believe that within our lifetime that our Yearly Meeting will 1) capitulate to the agenda of the world 2) will collapse. We do not have enough young people to carry it forward another generation. There is not one single child in our whole quarter. At age 44 I am one of the youngest members in our quarter. So, I have hopes that when the inevitable capitulation or collapse happens that my husband will be ready to look for something more stable. I sincerely doubt that the meeting where my membership currently is will exist 5 years from now. There are only 2 resident members (a married couple) and they are in their 70s. When that meeting is laid down I will feel more free.

I read some of these posts and I wanted to give some input and explanation.

The issue isn’t whether a woman is suppose to be submissive to her husband, the issue is our perception of it. God clearly states that it is a relationship of roles and not a hierarchy. The problem is that the devil is sowing the seeds of descent and conflict. The devil plants thoughts such as, “Why can’t women be priests?” Do you think God is sexist then? Why did Jesus choose all male disciples? Because it is a relationship of roles and the women that followed Jesus did not look at it as they were lesser.

Now, if your husband says he is uncomfortable with you going out with one of your guy friends, do you take it as he is telling you what to do? Maybe he says it more eloquently like, “I don’t want you going out with that guy.” Are you going to take it like he is telling you what to do and fight him on it? Or are you going to respect him and submit to his request?

Now look at it from the other side. If your husband wants to go out with his guy friends to the strip club and you tell him, “The hell you are.” Should the husband act like his wife is telling him what to do, being controlling, and fight with his wife? Or should the husband love his wife and honor her request?

In both situations, can you see how the devil could get the husband and wife to start lying to each other - getting them to justify being deceitful about where they are going.

I can’t list every scenario in every relationship, but the point is that we need to understand the difference between the “letter of the law” and the “spirit of the law”.

Do you go to church and pray demanding and arguing with God? Or do you go to church and pray being humble and still loving God even if He does not give you what you want?

Are you equal with God or is God bringing you (leading you) up to his level (deification)? Hmmm… didn’t Lucifer fall because he had the wrong attitude?

Jesus humbled Himself being a servant to the people He loves. So, a husband should do the same in relation to his wife. The people that love Jesus submit and follow Him. So, a wife should do the same in relation to her husband. Obviously, we are not perfect like Jesus so there are exceptions to the rules. If your husband is leading you to sell illegal drugs, by all means, say no. And if there is still an issue, bring it to the church and your priest.

-David