Is the Church raptured? OR do we FLEE to a place of safety!? Find out!

Berean777

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Ask these following questions to the Full Preterist...

Is your goal to establish a one to one personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

If so, how are you going about doing that (ask them to elaborate)?

Is religion to you about finding who the Lord is personally or is it solely to follow his teachings, without needing to personally know him?
 
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Berean777

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An adherent of the dualistic religious system of Manes, a combination of Gnostic Christianity, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and various other elements, with a basic doctrine of a conflict between light and dark, matter being regarded as dark and evil. adjective. 2. of or relating to the Manicheans or their doctrines.

This pagan religion regarded matter as inherently evil and from this very basis Full Preterists have derived their philosophy of being dead to the material world.

If you want to go in real detail of the heresies of Full Preterism, here is the link.....

http://www.preteristarchive.com/CriticalArticles/north-gary_ca_02.html

and here is a sample excerpt.......

Heresy Is a Reaction Against Orthodoxy

Heresies begin as rival theologies, and then are brought into the church, all dressed up in the garb of orthodoxy. Alien philosophies of God, man, law, historical causation, and time and eternity are reworked to fit Scriptural terminology and concepts. They spread within the church as supposed clarifications of an original true Christianity. To remove these heresies from the church, theologians and pastors must first recognize them as alien imports. This is why J. Gresham Machen wrote Christianity and Liberalism (1923): to identify the heresy of theological liberalism as an alien religion, the religion of sovereign, covenant-breaking man. [Gary North, Crossed Fingers: How the Liberals Captured the Presbyterian Church (Tyler, Texas: Institute for Christian Economics, 1996), Part 3.]

In this brief study, I identify the theological origin of the new Manicheanism. In order to understand this heretical theology, the reader first needs to know where the heresy comes into conflict with orthodoxy. In two passages above all others in Scripture, the conflict becomes inescapable: I Corinthians 15 and Revelation 20.

First, Paul challenged all varieties of Manicheanism in his account the Christ's second coming. He spoke of an inheritance that is closed to men in sinful flesh.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (I Cor. 15:50-55).

This section of I Corinthians 15 might be interpreted as referring only to heaven. John undermined this interpretation. Revelation 20 provides additional information regarding (1) the historical events that immediately precede the final judgment, (2) the physical resurrection of the dead, and (3) the post-resurrection state of covenant-breakers.

Heretical Preterism Preterism is an interpretation of biblical prophecies that argues that many, but not all, of the New Testament's prophecies of judgment were fulfilled in A.D. 70 with the Roman army's destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and the defeat of Israel's rebellion. This interpretation has been around for centuries. It is generally associated with postmillennialism, but there is nothing in preterism that cannot be accepted by amillennialists. It is because J. Marcellus Kik's short books, Revelation 20 and Matthew 24, revived interest in preterism a generation ago that postmillennialism is closely associated with this view. Kik was a postmillennialist, and so was R. J. Rushdoony, who encouraged the Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company to publish Kik's two short books in one paperback, An Eschatology of Victory (1971). It is quite possible for an amillennialist to hold classic preterism, just as C. Vanderwaal does. [C. Vanderwaal, Hal Lindsey and Biblical Prophecy (Neerlander, Alberta: Inheritance Publications, [1978] 1991).] Classic preterism argues that the key to understanding the prophecies of Matthew 24 is verse 34: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Everything prior to this verse was fulfilled by the fall of Jerusalem. In contrast, the separation of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25 has always been seen by the church as referring to the final judgment. Heretical preterism contends that Matthew 25 is governed by the prophetic time frame of Matthew 24:34. Indeed, all New Testament prophecy is said to be governed by this verse. As J. Stuart Russell asked rhetorically in 1878, "What can be more comprehensive and conclusive than our Lord's words, 'Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled'?" [J. Stuart Russell, The Parousia: A Critical Inquiry into the New Testament Doctrine of Our Lord's Second Coming, new edition (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, [no date] 1983), p. 545.] The point is, this passage is not comprehensive. It applies to the events described in Matthew 24, but we may not legitimately assume that it covers every eschatological passage in the New Testament, which is what heretical preterists assume and then attempt to prove. In this attempt, they wind up in one of two camps: Manicheanism or perfectionism-Pelagianism, as we shall see. Heretical preterism is an interpretation of biblical prophecies that argues that all of the New Testament's prophecies of judgment were fulfilled in A.D. 70. To argue that all of the prophecies concerning God's final judgment were fulfilled in A.D. 70 is to take a public stand against Paul's teaching regarding the inheritance of incorruption by corruption. It is also to reject the historic creeds of the church. The heretical preterists deny the creeds of the church on this point, which is why they are heretical ecclesiastically. They deny Paul with regard to the final overcoming of sin in history -- the full inheritance of incorruption by incorruption -- which is why they are heretical theologically. They proclaim "full preterism," which denies the full inheritance of incorruption in the future. Corruption must remain the permanent incomplete inheritance of the church militant. Because heretical preterists believe that God's final judgment is behind us historically -- A.D. 70 -- some of them also believe that sin is eternal. Sin is with the church today in this, the supposedly post-final-judgment world. They insist that there is no future eschatological event that will transform this world. "What we see now is what we Christians will get in history forever." There is therefore no hope of deliverance from sin in history, and no hope of deliverance from history for the church militant. Because preterism is not necessarily postmillennial, this position can be interpreted as teaching that the church militant will suffer ever-more grievously at the hands of covenant-breakers in history, which will never end. Surely, it means at least this: there must forever be a separation between the church militant and the church triumphant. The Lord's Prayer will never be answered: "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Matt. 6:10b). Heaven's perfection is forever denied to history, which is infinite in duration. The church militant must forever struggle with sin and its effects. Satan's work of treachery in the garden will never be finally and completely overcome. This view of history and eternity stands in opposition to what every branch of the Trinitarian church has taught throughout recorded history. The heretical nature of their position has been downplayed by the system's public defenders. They prefer, for tactical and perhaps personal psychological reasons, to avoid discussing the obvious implications of their position. If they publicly, enthusiastically, and continually declared their view of history as sin-cursed forever, they would eventually be excommunicated. They would have to fund their own churches with their own money. This is as it should be. They should not redefine the meaning of common words in Scripture in order to make their secret, "insiders-only" positions seem more acceptable to naive church members who have not examined the details of their system. They should forcefully say in public that the historic creeds are wrong and therefore not binding on them as church members. They should have the courage to challenge the elders in their congregations to publicly abandon or rewrite both the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed. It is time for heretical preterists to come clean in public and confidently declare their belief in the eternal separation of the church militant and the church triumphant, challenging all of their theological opponents to refute them, to excommunicate them if they dare. To do less than this is to substitute a strategy of subversion for open theological discussion. It is time for them publicly to answer Paul's rhetorical question, "O death, where is thy sting?" with the only answer that is consistent with their system: "In history and forever." The Manichean implications of this position are numerous. First, God will never bring history to a close; thus, good and evil will battle for the minds and souls of men eternally. Second, because corruption cannot inherit incorruption, as most heretical preterists acknowledge when pressed, the continuity of corruption in history makes impossible any inheritance of perfection in some post- resurrection New Heaven and New Earth (Rev. 21, 22). The only New Heaven and New Earth that Christians will ever obtain in their physical bodies is an extension of what Christians experience now. Third, Paul's promise of the eschatological transformation of the creation at the final judgment (I Cor. 15:24-25, 42-50) is seen as applying not to the creation but to the individual's transformation at death. Corruption in history is eternal. Terrestrial bodies will occupy the earth for as long as celestial bodies praise God in heaven. Fourth, covenant-breakers possess equally valid eschatological claims to the earth as covenant-keepers do. The tares will occupy the field of history eternally, right alongside the wheat. Matthew 13 will never come to pass as the end of history: "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (vv. 40-42). Anyone who equates the fulfillment of this prophecy with A.D. 70 is a Manichean. The Manicheanism of any such interpretation stands out most clearly in its rejection of the post- resurrection fulfillment of verse 43: "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." Heretical preterists refuse to hear.

Heretical preterists want all of the benefits of church membership: Christian fellowship, the sacraments, and help in times of need. But they are unwilling to start their own congregations, ordain their own ministers, pay for their own buildings, start their own seminaries or, above all, come to any formal, judicially enforceable agreement with one another regarding the details of what it is that they believe about a universe without a final historical judgment.

Do not get swept up in the Full Preterist deception. These liberal thinkers are there to take away your crowns and to deny you from establishing a one to one relationship with the risen Lord. Full Peterisim is based on Manichean Jesus. Please read the article and understand the implications of embracing such Preterist foley.
 
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Justme

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Ask these following questions to the Full Preterist...

Is your goal to establish a one to one personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

If so, how are you going about doing that (ask them to elaborate)?

Is religion to you about finding who the Lord is personally or is it solely to follow his teachings, without needing to personally know him?
I have believed and accepted Jesus as long as I can remember. I don't have a 'goal' I just accept and believe in Jesus Christ. How do I do that? I just accept and believe Jesus Christ.

I probably do the same thing as you do, but understand the verses of the bible differently.
If Jesus has questions for either of us I am sure He will ask us when it is our turn at the judgment seat, 2 COR 5:10, after our death, Hebrews 9:27.

Justme
 
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Berean777

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I have believed and accepted Jesus as long as I can remember. I don't have a 'goal' I just accept and believe in Jesus Christ. How do I do that? I just accept and believe Jesus Christ.

I probably do the same thing as you do, but understand the verses of the bible differently.
If Jesus has questions for either of us I am sure He will ask us when it is our turn at the judgment seat, 2 COR 5:10, after our death, Hebrews 9:27.

Justme

Good, continue in Jesus and to establish a personal relationship with him, as if he is more real than the relationship you have with those you love around you.

Matthew 10:37
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
 
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Justme

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Here is another Preterist who claims that Jesus reverted to becoming a spirit, after ascending up into heaven.
No Jesus became a spirit as His earth body died. As His earth body died God granted that He could be seen by certain people so they could be witnesses to His resurrection form the dead. The NASB follows the early manuscripts very closely as it renders the verse Acts 409, as this:

40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
Jesus became spirit as 1 COR 15:45 tells you.

45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Justme
 
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Berean777

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No Jesus became a spirit as His earth body died. As His earth body died God granted that He could be seen by certain people so they could be witnesses to His resurrection form the dead. The NASB follows the early manuscripts very closely as it renders the verse Acts 409, as this:

40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
Jesus became spirit as 1 COR 15:45 tells you.

45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Justme

You didn't really answer my question directly, but that's ok.

Please answer this question. ..

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God?
 
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Justme

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Good, continue in Jesus and to establish a personal relationship with him, as if he is more real than the relationship you have with those you love around you.

I explained some full preterist beliefs to you as I see them. You say there are others, I would be interested in seeing some of these as there was things in the last list that are biblically correct as the full preterist sees them.
Justme
 
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Justme

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You didn't really answer my question directly, but that's ok.

Please answer this question. ..

Do you believe that the Jesus Christ is God?
Let me provide the bible references again.

Jesus became spirit. That is written by Paul in 1 COR 15:45
45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

That is the only possible understanding because 1 COR 15 also says this:
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Phil 3:21 tells us that we will have a body as Jesus has.... therefore the reverse is true...
21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

As Jesus died He became spirit. That is obvious because God had to make Him VISIBLE so the witnesses could see Him: Acts 10

40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
Jesus became flesh to live among man, but returned to spirit again as He was in heaven for the other x billion years He has been there.

Somewhere someone asked me if I feel there is one God. Yes I do. I hold to a trinity of sorts but can not explain it worth a hoot. I feel the Jesus that became flesh is God, I believe the Jesus that created all things was God but we, man, was designed from OUR image. So as I said I can't explain it well at all.

Justme
 
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MerriestHouse

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Ah, eschatology...always an entertaining subject. Like watching a car wreck in slow motion.
Preterism is Covenant Eschatology. Our God is a God of Covenants.
Preterism is not something that can be taught to others. .
A Preterist view is something that a person holds after they personally study the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. That is why many Bible Scholars in the past have held the Preterist view, and why many Scholars hold that view today.
A Preterist takes everything written from Genesis to Revelation as one continuous story about the redemption of mankind. A correct understanding of the New Covenant Scripture depends on a correct understanding of the Old Covenant Scripture.
I was a Preterist before I had ever heard the word Preterist.
Preterists assemble in congregations of the Lords people with others who are not Preterists.
Preterists are believers who honor all Scripture and are honest in their interpretation of all Scripture.
A Preterist is one who does not alter their interpretation of Scripture to fit preconceived opinions, but alters their opinion to fit Scripture.
 
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random person

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i am a full preterist.

does any see the connection between these verses:

isaiah 9:7
daniel 2:44
isaiah 65:20
isaiah 65:23
isaiah 66:22
isaiah 60:5 / isaiah 60:11 / revelation 21:24-25 (please been keen on the first line of vs. 24 as it obviously refers to 22:2)/ revelation 22:2
ephesians 3:21
 
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Justme

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i am a full preterist.

does any see the connection between these verses:

isaiah 9:7
daniel 2:44
isaiah 65:20
isaiah 65:23
isaiah 66:22
isaiah 60:5 / isaiah 60:11 / revelation 21:24-25 (please been keen on the first line of vs. 24 as it obviously refers to 22:2)/ revelation 22:2
ephesians 3:21

I do.....

Justme
 
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Justme

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:)

maybe i could've have tucked galatians 4:26, hebrews 11:10,16; 12:22 in amongst those passages in isaiah and revelation too
As you broaden your reading of verses it becomes obvious that full preterism follows every verse in the bible. I have never found anything that fits better.

Justme
 
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JLB777

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I find it interesting that you have picked up on the words "the last trump" and yet seem to not realize that the passages which are claimed to teach a "rapture of the Church" are in fact speaking of the resurrection at the end of time.

The Resurrection and Rapture are the same event.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


Case Closed.


JLB
 
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The Lone Ranger

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Let me provide the bible references again.

Jesus became spirit. That is written by Paul in 1 COR 15:45
45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

That is the only possible understanding because 1 COR 15 also says this:
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Phil 3:21 tells us that we will have a body as Jesus has.... therefore the reverse is true...
21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

As Jesus died He became spirit. That is obvious because God had to make Him VISIBLE so the witnesses could see Him: Acts 10

40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
Jesus became flesh to live among man, but returned to spirit again as He was in heaven for the other x billion years He has been there.

Somewhere someone asked me if I feel there is one God. Yes I do. I hold to a trinity of sorts but can not explain it worth a hoot. I feel the Jesus that became flesh is God, I believe the Jesus that created all things was God but we, man, was designed from OUR image. So as I said I can't explain it well at all.

Justme
Well Genesis 2:27-31 says man was created in God's image. From my understanding, there were two creations of man. One was created in God's image. As far as the Trinity is concerned, we can see that The spirit of God went out before the Israelites as they entered into the land of Canaan, Exodus 13:21, and then at other times Psalms 68:7, Acts 5:4 , 1 Chronicles 21:14. That could be deemed as the Holy Spirit because as we know the Holy Spirit is there to convict us as we sin. Then Numbers 22:30-31 he made an Donkey talk and etc... Then we have Genesis 32:28 when God became man (The Son) And Matthew 1:23, 2 Peter 1:1. Then the Father, Matthew 3:16-17 , John 14:8-11, Isaiah 63:16
 
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The Resurrection and Rapture are the same event.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


Case Closed.


JLB

I love this topic and have read thousands of views. Yours is one of the common ones, however at the end of the tribulation there will be few humans left. The water will be poison, the land scorched (and possibly radioactive) the ground will be littered with asteroids/meteors and the air will be thick with smoke.

1.There is no way we could "take comfort" in the thought of His return in those conditions
2. There is no way we could be caught off guard because we will know exactly when it will be from he Daniels prophecy.
3. At the end of the trib, it won't be business as usual like in Noah's day like Jesus said.

So....It looks as if it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to correctly time the event. Might be several raptures, who knows. The key to much of this is found in the letters to the 7 churches. Spend more time on those and the subject will become a little bit clearer.
 
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ewq1938

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The Resurrection and Rapture are the same event.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


Case Closed.


JLB


They are two different events. That verses only speaks of those who are already alive (no resurrection needed for them) and are raptured.
 
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JLB777

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They are two different events. That verses only speaks of those who are already alive (no resurrection needed for them) and are raptured.


The Resurrection and Rapture are one event and occur at His coming.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...

caught up together with them...

together with them...

The raptured ones are caught up together with the resurrected ones who were caught up first.

The Resurrection is a moment just before the Rapture, whereby
all of those who are Christ are gathered together by Him, being caught together in the clouds, and FOREVER BEING WITH HIM.


Irrefutable.


JLB
 
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JLB777

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I love this topic and have read thousands of views. Yours is one of the common ones, however at the end of the tribulation there will be few humans left. The water will be poison, the land scorched (and possibly radioactive) the ground will be littered with asteroids/meteors and the air will be thick with smoke.

1.There is no way we could "take comfort" in the thought of His return in those conditions
2. There is no way we could be caught off guard because we will know exactly when it will be from he Daniels prophecy.
3. At the end of the trib, it won't be business as usual like in Noah's day like Jesus said.

So....It looks as if it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to correctly time the event. Might be several raptures, who knows. The key to much of this is found in the letters to the 7 churches. Spend more time on those and the subject will become a little bit clearer.


I see, you are one of those who just ignore what the scriptures says, in favor of just making up whatever you decide to believe.

The raptured ones are caught up together with the resurrected ones who were caught up first.

The Resurrection is a moment just before the Rapture, whereby all of those who are Christ are gathered together by Him, being caught together in the clouds, and FOREVER BEING WITH HIM.


The comfort is being forever with Him, not in some "circumstances" or "conditions".

ALL will be made alive at His Coming.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23


The resurrection comes just before the rapture.

All who are His will be resurrected first, the we who are alive and remain will BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM.



Case Closed!



JLB
 
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random person

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yabber yabber yabber....

the letters to thessalonians was addressing the jewish persecutions of the church at thessalonica ... its all there in acts of the apostles 17

the spirit lawlessness was already at work and the restrainer was actively restraining when paul wrote these letters ...

acts of the apostles 17 = 1 thessalonians 2:14-16 = 2 thessalonians 1:4-9 wash rinse repeat

full preterism ftw!!!!!
 
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