ewq1938 said in post 17:
A pre-trib rapture (a rapture that could happen at anytime before the trib even began) is a misinterpretation of this verse:
1Th_5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Good point. For it is indeed a misinterpretation.
For 1 Thessalonians 5:2 refers to "the day of the Lord", and the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
The mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view feels that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what is called a home invasion, which is quite obvious, and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).
Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43-44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).
Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him only
if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the
if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still watching (staying awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).
Regarding Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).
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That is, Matthew 24:37-41 refers to "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-30). And Matthew 24:37-41 shows that the unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it actually happens. For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (of Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.
For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9); and the power that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36); and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).
And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected 1st battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.
ewq1938 said in post 17:
Paul heard of this misinterpretation and wrote a second letter to try to correct their error:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Amen.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus and rapture (gathering together) of the church, which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 wasn't so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says that the day of the Lord (Christ) is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2), in the sense of already present, that the 2nd coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
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Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.
Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.
But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).
Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
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Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all of his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all of his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).
Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).
God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all of his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all of their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).
Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).
1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
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ewq1938 said in post 22:
Also, the 144k are saints and they go through the entire tribulation.
Regarding "the 144k are saints", that's right. For the 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).
The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel that they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).
ewq1938 said in post 22:
Also, the 144k are saints and they go through the entire tribulation. They will be raptured once the tribulation ends.
Actually, the 144,000 will be caught up (in their mortal bodies) mid-tribulation. But there will be other people in the church who will go through the entire tribulation.
That is, while at the future point in time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the church will still be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000, along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's 1st stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It is near the end of this 1st stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).
After this 2nd stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).
The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14-16); and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials (Revelation 16) will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage. Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.
