Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

Status
Not open for further replies.

7xlightray

Newbie
Jun 30, 2013
515
29
✟15,256.00
Faith
Christian
No one claimed you were misrepresenting me. That statement was about me and my limited abilities to present the Trinity Doctrine correctly.
I was quoting myself, not you. What I could suggest is go back and follow how this started by you saying “Begrudgingly.”
You are however all over the place here jumping from metaphysical discussion of God the Son, as a Perfect Image of the Father and talking about a physical man. We are not limited to the physical models when talking about the Nature of God. So how can we claim to know what is or is not possible when it comes to talking about God and His Nature?

Am not sure why we should think a Spiritual Being with consisting of multiple Persons is impossible simply because we do not see (or at least have not) such things in the physical realm.

Again, we were not talking about God making something. We were talking about what we thought the Perfect Image of God the Father in God's Mind would be. You said that Image would be Real and Perfect, but stopped short apparently of declaring that Image could be a Person separate from God the Father - which begs the question why not. If the Perfect Image in God the Father's mind is real as you said - then what do you think that is?

Am saying what we call God the Son (that Perfect Image of the Father) became the man we call Son of God while still retaining His Divinity. So that man is still One Person - the same person He was before the Incarnation - but has two natures.
Am unclear how we can claim to know what is possible for God to do or not do. How do we say God the Father can have Perfect Knowledge of Himself in His Mind, that such an Image is Real - yet not really perfect - somehow incomplete?
Why do we assume God has a body or else limit Him to characteristics/traits of our physical world - (can only have one being (Nature) matched with one person?
Where is the perfect image, if God remains God, and the man that God becomes (as you said, we are not talking about God making something), is not the perfect image?

How is Christ's mind this perfect image of God, as you speak, if Jesus did not know the Day, or hour?
How did the perfect mind grow in wisdom?

I believe Jesus mind is the perfect image of God, but not in the way, or to the degree you are putting on it.
 
Upvote 0

7xlightray

Newbie
Jun 30, 2013
515
29
✟15,256.00
Faith
Christian
Nicene Creed: Why is the church before the judges of the world to settle a matter of God? To have it enforced by a man? This should be the eye opener. The apostles influenced others by the power of God, but these men by the power of a man. And no one sees the error in this? We know what the apostles would have said, “it matters not what is decided here today, we will follow God.” Though I suppose some of us may not know this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Nicene Creed: Why is the church before the judges of the world to settle a matter of God? To have it enforced by a man? This should be the eye opener. The apostles influenced others by the power of God, but these men by the power of a man. And no one sees the error in this? We know what the apostles would have said, “it matters not what is decided here today, we will follow God.” Though I suppose some of us may not know this.
So God instituted something to be influenced by men only to have it fail to continue to influence men. Do you have other examples of where God fails?
 
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I was quoting myself, not you. What I could suggest is go back and follow how this started by you saying “Begrudgingly.”

Where is the perfect image, if God remains God, and the man that God becomes (as you said, we are not talking about God making something), is not the perfect image?

How is Christ's mind this perfect image of God, as you speak, if Jesus did not know the Day, or hour?
How did the perfect mind grow in wisdom?

I believe Jesus mind is the perfect image of God, but not in the way, or to the degree you are putting on it.
By begrudgingly it was meant you agreed the Image of God in His Mind was very Real but refused to identify clearly what that meant to you. To me it has to be a Person, otherwise that is not a Perfect Image of God, because God is a Person. And no, by Person we do not mean human.

The Perfect Image of the Father is that Person of God that became man - again the concept is that the Incarnation of that Image - Jesus is unique - He did not stop being the Perfect Image of the Father - which means He is God - He is and always has been God - God the Son. That is why it is said Jesus has two natures - one Divine and one human. Humans reflect God's Image and one could say in that aspect, the man Jesus - as the Son of God does indeed reflect that Image as a perfect HUMAN - which is why He is our example. So when we put it that way, we could say He is both the Perfect Image (God the Son) and the perfect human (perfect man - Son of God) --> two natures.

As man Jesus has His own intellect and will that are distinct from God's. That is why He can pray (as a man should pray) to God the Father. If He was only God, it would make no sense to pray to Himself. He is also God the Son, so as God He can speak with the Authority, do miracles with the Authority and He also judged men for their sins which only God can do.

Not the hour - yes - thought we covered that. At least two schools of thought there and these are very old and unsettled questions - He knew but it was not for us (mankind) to know-so He would not tell them. Or that information (perhaps other???) was veiled by God from His human intellect for same reason (at least after Resurrection - see below). Some have argued that perhaps His human intellect was limited (even incapable) in respect to having or fully sharing in the Perfect Knowledge of God- which of course God the Son would have. Recall it is taught He has two intellects and wills (one Divine and one human). I personally do not agree and think Jesus always knew He was God and all information is shared, even when immature as a human. Saint John clearly says He knew "all things", but then one could say that comment was recorded after Resurrection when He had a glorified (resurrected) human body - people have debated the extent of His human intellect for thousands of years. But either way we do not have to conclude that the only plausible explanation is that He is not Divine, which you seem to suppose.
 
Upvote 0

7xlightray

Newbie
Jun 30, 2013
515
29
✟15,256.00
Faith
Christian
So God instituted something to be influenced by men only to have it fail to continue to influence men. Do you have other examples of where God fails?
Well, did God fail when He called Israel, northern kingdom, when they worshiped other gods, God dispersed them and have not returned to this day? God choosing Jerusalem. Then Judah, southern kingdom, worshiped other gods, rejected Christ, were also dispersed. As it also says, many are called, but few chosen. Many scriptures that speak of God calling out a people for Himself, out of those that were called. There may seem as though there are not many, or any at all, but God said, “I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal” 1 Kings 19; this is a passage dealing with Jezebel - Revelation 2:20. And Luke 13:20-24, and others like Zech. 13 God will cut off two-thirds, but will refine and test one-third. There is much more, to much to get into, like the falling away, God sending a strong delusion, and so on. Deut. 13 is a test. It was prophesied the church would quickly turn to other gods, after the generation of Apostles, and all those that seen all the great works God had done, as Paul mentioned the falling away. Did God fail when He had Judas as one of Jesus disciples? God has not failed, God knows those that are His.
 
  • Like
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

7xlightray

Newbie
Jun 30, 2013
515
29
✟15,256.00
Faith
Christian
The Perfect Image of the Father is that Person of God that became man - again the concept is that the Incarnation of that Image - Jesus is unique - He did not stop being the Perfect Image of the Father - which means He is God - He is and always has been God - God the Son. That is why it is said Jesus has two natures - one Divine and one human. Humans reflect God's Image and one could say in that aspect, the man Jesus - as the Son of God does indeed reflect that Image as a perfect HUMAN - which is why He is our example. So when we put it that way, we could say He is both the Perfect Image (God the Son) and the perfect human (perfect man - Son of God) --> two natures.

As man Jesus has His own intellect and will that are distinct from God's. That is why He can pray (as a man should pray) to God the Father. If He was only God, it would make no sense to pray to Himself. He is also God the Son, so as God He can speak with the Authority, do miracles with the Authority and He also judged men for their sins which only God can do.
What does not make sense about this doctrine, is that Jesus is one person, yet spoken of as if he is two persons.

Are you receiving the testimony of the Pharisees, instead of the testimony of Jesus, who said he has this authority on earth, as he did miracles. And we know it was the Father doing the works, which Acts 2:22 also state. What about Matthews testimony; notice what he goes on to say, “But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power [authority] unto men.” - Matthew 9:8. And Jesus gave this same authority to his disciples John 20:22-23.
Not the hour - yes - thought we covered that. At least two schools of thought there and these are very old and unsettled questions - He knew but it was not for us (mankind) to know-so He would not tell them. Or that information (perhaps other???) was veiled by God from His human intellect for same reason (at least after Resurrection - see below). Some have argued that perhaps His human intellect was limited (even incapable) in respect to having or fully sharing in the Perfect Knowledge of God- which of course God the Son would have. Recall it is taught He has two intellects and wills (one Divine and one human). I personally do not agree and think Jesus always knew He was God and all information is shared, even when immature as a human. Saint John clearly says He knew "all things", but then one could say that comment was recorded after Resurrection when He had a glorified (resurrected) human body - people have debated the extent of His human intellect for thousands of years. But either way we do not have to conclude that the only plausible explanation is that He is not Divine, which you seem to suppose.
I don't think this only because of one passage.

Not only does this refer to the Son, but even the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit were another person that is...
Mark 13:32 (KJV) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man (this is the word G3762 - oudeis – no one, nothing, NOT the word G444 – anthrōpos – human being, man), no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.​
By using this word “G3762 – oudeis (a powerful negating conjunction that leaves no exceptions)” he is excluding all others. No one else!
It is because only the LORD knows the Day Zechariah 14:7, this chapter is speaking of the Day of the LORD. Why would this be written, if not to let us know Who the true God is? Jesus Said, the Father is the only true God, Paul said we have one God the Father.

Thomas said, “to him the lord of me, and the God of me [in the Greek].” Is Thomas saying, “the God of me, and the God of me?” Our Trinitarian trained mind will say, “Yes, he has to be.” There is good scriptural reason why Thomas said this though, but we will not be willing to see this, if we believe Jesus is the only true God also. We are trained to believe, any contradictions, are chalked up to “God is a mystery,” but no way would we allow JW to get away with something like that, "a god" as apposed to "the God."
 
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Well, did God fail when He called Israel, northern kingdom, when they worshiped other gods, God dispersed them and have not returned to this day? God choosing Jerusalem. Then Judah, southern kingdom, worshiped other gods, rejected Christ, were also dispersed. As it also says, many are called, but few chosen. Many scriptures that speak of God calling out a people for Himself, out of those that were called. There may seem as though there are not many, or any at all, but God said, “I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal” 1 Kings 19; this is a passage dealing with Jezebel - Revelation 2:20. And Luke 13:20-24, and others like Zech. 13 God will cut off two-thirds, but will refine and test one-third. There is much more, to much to get into, like the falling away, God sending a strong delusion, and so on. Deut. 13 is a test. It was prophesied the church would quickly turn to other gods, after the generation of Apostles, and all those that seen all the great works God had done, as Paul mentioned the falling away. Did God fail when He had Judas as one of Jesus disciples? God has not failed, God knows those that are His.
Man fails in all those examples and God allows it - free-will. Am just saying God Himself came and instituted the teachings you mentioned to "influence" men. He did not say men would never fail and they have, even in the Church. But the teaching Authority He instituted is a Power that cannot fail - and He said as much.
 
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What does not make sense about this doctrine, is that Jesus is one person, yet spoken of as if he is two persons.

Are you receiving the testimony of the Pharisees, instead of the testimony of Jesus, who said he has this authority on earth, as he did miracles. And we know it was the Father doing the works, which Acts 2:22 also state. What about Matthews testimony; notice what he goes on to say, “But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power [authority] unto men.” - Matthew 9:8. And Jesus gave this same authority to his disciples John 20:22-23.

I don't think this only because of one passage.

Not only does this refer to the Son, but even the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit were another person that is...
Mark 13:32 (KJV) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man (this is the word G3762 - oudeis – no one, nothing, NOT the word G444 – anthrōpos – human being, man), no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.​
By using this word “G3762 – oudeis (a powerful negating conjunction that leaves no exceptions)” he is excluding all others. No one else!
It is because only the LORD knows the Day Zechariah 14:7, this chapter is speaking of the Day of the LORD. Why would this be written, if not to let us know Who the true God is? Jesus Said, the Father is the only true God, Paul said we have one God the Father.

Thomas said, “to him the lord of me, and the God of me [in the Greek].” Is Thomas saying, “the God of me, and the God of me?” Our Trinitarian trained mind will say, “Yes, he has to be.” There is good scriptural reason why Thomas said this though, but we will not be willing to see this, if we believe Jesus is the only true God also. We are trained to believe, any contradictions, are chalked up to “God is a mystery,” but no way would we allow JW to get away with something like that, "a god" as apposed to "the God."
Am not sure how many times people have to be told that nature and person in such discussions are NOT the same thing when we speak of the Trinity or the Person of the Trinity who became Man. Two natures does not mean two people, the Who is the same Person. It is the What in the Incarnation that is unique among all creation. And no, God the Son was not created, the man He became - the Son of God was conceived and grew in Mary's Womb yet is still God. Two natures, One Person.

Need some clarification. So you are saying Jesus is just a man or Jesus was God who became just a man and then God again or Jesus was just a god who became man man briefly and is now a god again (no longer human)?
 
Upvote 0

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,621
59
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
We each have our own beliefs / faith. We turn to scripture and sometimes the interpretation can be wrong or confusing.

I sometimes wonder if scripture, as we know it today, is as it was written originally. I wonder if God is looking down and shouting out " YOU GOT IT WRONG!!! YOU HAVE LEFT OUT SOME HOLY SCRIPTURE or YOU ARE INTERPRETING IT ALL WRONG!!"
 
Upvote 0

Jack Terrence

Fighting the good fight
Feb 15, 2013
2,851
194
✟27,525.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Your argument makes no sense to me. They were angels as you said, and Hebrews 13:2 says ,“Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.” The angels appeared as men, but they were angels. And Abraham did not see the LORD, it was an angels, speaking in the name of the LORD. As it was God's name in the angel that went before the Israelites Exodus 23:20-21; Acts 7:53; Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 2:2. Angels are messengers of God.
It says that THREE mortals appeared to Abraham. One of them was YHWH and the other two were angels. So, YHWH and two angels appeared to Abraham as MORTALS. YHWH assumed the limitations of a mortal for he said to himself, "I will go down to Sodom and see for myself if this is true. Then I will know." Notice that YHWH had limited knowledge. He said to himself, "Then I will know." YHWH assumed a mortal's limitation. The two angels also assumed the limitations of mortals for they were capable of being the victims of violence and rape. Lot took it upon himself to protect them.

If YHWH could assume the condition and limitations of a mortal, then it stands to reason that he could be tempted while in that condition. The same was true of the two angels. If they could assume the limitations of mortals and be the victims of violence and rape, then they could also be tempted.

Romans 15:6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 7 Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

To confirm the promises of God the Father made to the father. This is all the Father's work.
This is a total denial of the testimony of scripture. It CLEARLY says that it was Christ that "made good" the promises. It was Christ who was rewarded by being exalted to the right hand of the Father and by being given a name that is above every name. Why would Christ be rewarded for a work that was "all the Father's work" as you say? Explain that to us. Now look at verse 3. It says that it all the work fell on Christ. The Father is glorified in verse 6 for sending Christ. But it was Christ's work to accomplish.

So I repeat: Your argument fails because it was a man that guaranteed the promises of God.

Deuteronomy 6:16 is referring to Exodus 17 and this is not about the people tempting the LORD to sin. Not sure where do you get that from? And 1 Corinthians 10:9 is the same thing, which is in Numbers 21. They were not living by faith, and testing God, as Ahaz said he would not test the LORD Isaiah 7:12.

Their not tempting God to sin, but testing Him for a sign, because they lack faith, saying things like God brought them out of Egypt to kill them, is God among us or not.
They were in essence tempting God to break his covenant. This is to tempt God to lie. Think man! The same was true of the temptation of Jesus. For Jesus to 'test' God would have been for him to tempt God to break his covenant which would have been to tempt God to lie.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

7xlightray

Newbie
Jun 30, 2013
515
29
✟15,256.00
Faith
Christian
Man fails in all those examples and God allows it - free-will. Am just saying God Himself came and instituted the teachings you mentioned to "influence" men. He did not say men would never fail and they have, even in the Church. But the teaching Authority He instituted is a Power that cannot fail - and He said as much.
It's was not simply a few that failed, but the whole nation of Israel, except those chosen by God. There is also a falling away that must come first. Paul is not talking about a few, for up till then there were also those that fell away. Paul is talking about a specific falling away, those that did not receive the love of the truth, that they should believe the lie, who did not believe the truth, and this the work of God.
God Himself came and instituted the teachings,” and “the teaching Authority He instituted is a Power,”Yes, God sending a strong delusion. It was not as clear cut as you may think, there was some flip-flopping. Arianism and the Nicene Creed, were not the only two beliefs that were around at this time, they were the only two that were winning out, and fighting for power, and eventually with Theodosius I with sole power over East and West in 392 AD, enforced the Nicene Christianity over East and West, after making it the state church of the Roman Empire in 380 AD. Jesus did not force his teaching on anyone, simply told them how it was, the truth. If they accepted, they accepted it, saying, whoever the Father has given him will come to him.
 
Upvote 0

7xlightray

Newbie
Jun 30, 2013
515
29
✟15,256.00
Faith
Christian
Am not sure how many times people have to be told that nature and person in such discussions are NOT the same thing when we speak of the Trinity or the Person of the Trinity who became Man. Two natures does not mean two people, the Who is the same Person. It is the What in the Incarnation that is unique among all creation. And no, God the Son was not created, the man He became - the Son of God was conceived and grew in Mary's Womb yet is still God. Two natures, One Person.
I know two natures, One person, I know this, but because of two natures, is the reason given as to the two seemingly persons. In other words why One Person Jesus, did not know, and grew in wisdom, and the such, but the other God Person knew all things. This is what I am referring to. The doctrine says because of two natures. Well so what, Jesus is only one Person. Two natures would have to mean two minds then, if one knew, and one did not, if one grew in wisdom and one did not. You can say two natures all you want, but it's meaningless, unless this can be explained. We would have to chalk this up again to “God is a mystery! Who can know Him?” This is eternal life that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Need some clarification. So you are saying Jesus is just a man or Jesus was God who became just a man and then God again or Jesus was just a god who became man man briefly and is now a god again (no longer human)?
I can say no more then what the Word of God says, which I have said many times in this thread, which I tried to word in different ways. God chose to have a human son that was in the image of Himself, and exalt him onto His throne, over all His creation, which He planed before the foundation of the world. God the Father's Word-logos which was with God the Father, and was God the Father, became flesh Isaiah 55:4-5,10-11 + Isaiah 45:4-5. God's Son! As we inherit our parents character, and likeness, so did Jesus, but as a human. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, Adam was not made this way. God the Father is the only true God, and no God was formed before Him, or after Him.

Jesus who is One Person, no matter how many natures we would put on him, called God, his God, and his Father. Jesus had to be a man so that he could be tempted as we are (if he was God, then he was not tempted as we are), so that he could destroy sin in the flesh. Now that he is resurrected, he does have the nature of God in bodily form, being immortal and glorified, but we don't know fully what that is, as John admits 1 John 3. So how could I go beyond what John knows, who knew Jesus in person, before and after his resurrection.
 
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's was not simply a few that failed, but the whole nation of Israel, except those chosen by God. There is also a falling away that must come first. Paul is not talking about a few, for up till then there were also those that fell away. Paul is talking about a specific falling away, those that did not receive the love of the truth, that they should believe the lie, who did not believe the truth, and this the work of God.
God Himself came and instituted the teachings,” and “the teaching Authority He instituted is a Power,”Yes, God sending a strong delusion. It was not as clear cut as you may think, there was some flip-flopping. Arianism and the Nicene Creed, were not the only two beliefs that were around at this time, they were the only two that were winning out, and fighting for power, and eventually with Theodosius I with sole power over East and West in 392 AD, enforced the Nicene Christianity over East and West, after making it the state church of the Roman Empire in 380 AD. Jesus did not force his teaching on anyone, simply told them how it was, the truth. If they accepted, they accepted it, saying, whoever the Father has given him will come to him.
Your entitled I guess to reguritate someone else's opinion of Christian history, I was talking about what God did after He became a man ("go teach").

The point was God Himself presented mankind with a group that He gave a Teaching Authority. I cannot fathom God doing that to have that Teaching Authority die out with those men.

If Jesus was just a man, how is He able to do what God says men should not do?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

7xlightray

Newbie
Jun 30, 2013
515
29
✟15,256.00
Faith
Christian
We each have our own beliefs / faith. We turn to scripture and sometimes the interpretation can be wrong or confusing.

I sometimes wonder if scripture, as we know it today, is as it was written originally. I wonder if God is looking down and shouting out " YOU GOT IT WRONG!!! YOU HAVE LEFT OUT SOME HOLY SCRIPTURE or YOU ARE INTERPRETING IT ALL WRONG!!"
It is Obvious not all the Greek text agree, though mostly they do. I would in no way be discouraged by this, for the way scripture was written, we can still find the truth, absolutely; but we have to find the only one truth, for God is Truth. I hear Christians saying things like, “Well, it doesn't really matter that much what we believe, or how we understand God, and Who He is, as long as we believe Jesus died for us.” This is totally contrary to the Word of God, God is truth, and we need to walk in the truth. When we do find that one and only truth, the scriptures, will flow naturally. Not in little chunks, or a verse here and a verse there, which scripture says is the wrong way to understand them Isaiah 28.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I know two natures, One person, I know this, but because of two natures, is the reason given as to the two seemingly persons. In other words why One Person Jesus, did not know, and grew in wisdom, and the such, but the other God Person knew all things. This is what I am referring to. The doctrine says because of two natures. Well so what, Jesus is only one Person. Two natures would have to mean two minds then, if one knew, and one did not, if one grew in wisdom and one did not. You can say two natures all you want, but it's meaningless, unless this can be explained. We would have to chalk this up again to “God is a mystery! Who can know Him?” This is eternal life that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I can say no more then what the Word of God says, which I have said many times in this thread, which I tried to word in different ways. God chose to have a human son that was in the image of Himself, and exalt him onto His throne, over all His creation, which He planed before the foundation of the world. God the Father's Word-logos which was with God the Father, and was God the Father, became flesh Isaiah 55:4-5,10-11 + Isaiah 45:4-5. God's Son! As we inherit our parents character, and likeness, so did Jesus, but as a human. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, Adam was not made this way. God the Father is the only true God, and no God was formed before Him, or after Him.

Jesus who is One Person, no matter how many natures we would put on him, called God, his God, and his Father. Jesus had to be a man so that he could be tempted as we are (if he was God, then he was not tempted as we are), so that he could destroy sin in the flesh. Now that he is resurrected, he does have the nature of God in bodily form, being immortal and glorified, but we don't know fully what that is, as John admits 1 John 3. So how could I go beyond what John knows, who knew Jesus in person, before and after his resurrection.
My response was there are other acceptable explanations for His not telling them when He would return besides assuming He did not know or was not God. The "doctrine" does not say why He did not tell Him or if He knew (or not). Am not sure where you are getting your information on what the "doctrine" teaches.

If we cannot fully explain everything about God then any enlightenment we have is meaningless. Interesting concept. Curious to know if your explanation of God meaningless as well then?
 
Upvote 0

7xlightray

Newbie
Jun 30, 2013
515
29
✟15,256.00
Faith
Christian
Your entitled I guess to reguritate someone else's opinion of Christian history, I was talking about what God did after He became a man ("go teach").

The point was God Himself presented mankind with a group that He gave a Teaching Authority. I cannot fathom God doing that to have that Teaching Authority die out with those men.

If Jesus was just a man, how is He able to do what God says men should not do?
Of course, we can only regurgitate what someone else has said about history, because we were not there. That seems rather obvious.

This is what scripture teaches, warnings after warnings. God said, He is sending a strong delusion. Again, God is sending a strong delusion. Do you know what that is? God will need to reveal this to you.
 
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Of course, we can only regurgitate what someone else has said about history, because we were not there. That seems rather obvious.

This is what scripture teaches, warnings after warnings. God said, He is sending a strong delusion. Again, God is sending a strong delusion. Do you know what that is? God will need to reveal this to you.
Are you suggesting God spent three years deluding the Apostles or that God works against Himself?
 
Upvote 0

7xlightray

Newbie
Jun 30, 2013
515
29
✟15,256.00
Faith
Christian
It says that THREE mortals appeared to Abraham. One of them was YHWH and the other two were angels. So, YHWH and two angels appeared to Abraham as MORTALS. YHWH assumed the limitations of a mortal for he said to himself, "I will go down to Sodom and see for myself if this is true. Then I will know." Notice that YHWH had limited knowledge. He said to himself, "Then I will know." YHWH assumed a mortal's limitation. The two angels also assumed the limitations of mortals for they were capable of being the victims of violence and rape. Lot took it upon himself to protect them.

If YHWH could assume the condition and limitations of a mortal, then it stands to reason that he could be tempted while in that condition. The same was true of the two angels. If they could assume the limitations of mortals and be the victims of violence and rape, then they could also be tempted.
Why in all the world would YHWH assume limited knowledge, for this? Notice it says in Gen. 18

the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great... I will go down now, and see whether they have done...”​

...but the Lord did not go down...

22 “And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.”​

...the two angels went down, there's something to think about. How did the Lord go down to Sodom when he is standing before Abraham? Then it says about the two angels in Gen 19:13...

For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.”​

Then in verse 14 it says...

And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city.”​

Beginning to see whats going on, angels are representatives of God.
Then verse 24...

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.”​

The angels said, they will destroy Sodom, and that the Lord sent them to destroy. That's the right way to understand it. They are angels, and the Lord's name is in them, God sends His angels in His name. No one has seen God.

Ya, so Abraham seen YHWH, and what? ...the YHWH, Who is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit fit into one body on earth, or maybe just Jesus himself? God who does not dwell in a temple, for it cannot contain Him 2 Chronicles 2:5, somehow fits into a body, a body that dwells in a temple.

Are you not familiar how the O/T scriptures speak...

Judges 2 :1 And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

Received the law as it was ordained by angels Acts 7:53; Galatians 3:19.

Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Genesis 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even. Then verse 18, And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my... some versions have “lords”, some “lord,” others “Lord,” KJV has “LORD,”
...anyway, we know they were angels.

Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:...4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the Lord said: “I have surely seen the oppression of My people...8 So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians...11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee.

Do we really think this was God Moses was looking at, and yet did not die?

Acts 7:30 ...there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. 31 When Moses saw it, ...and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. 33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground. 34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt. 35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. 36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

It was an angel that appeared to him, and it was an angel that was with them, all through the wilderness. Angels are God's messengers, they are the ones that come down as men to deliver messages. And it was an angel that came down in Exodus 3 to deliver them, as it says in Acts 7, though it says the Lord came down to deliver them.

This is the correct way to understand.

This is a total denial of the testimony of scripture. It CLEARLY says that it was Christ that "made good" the promises. It was Christ who was rewarded by being exalted to the right hand of the Father and by being given a name that is above every name. Why would Christ be rewarded for a work that was "all the Father's work" as you say? Explain that to us. Now look at verse 3. It says that it all the work fell on Christ. The Father is glorified in verse 6 for sending Christ. But it was Christ's work to accomplish.

So I repeat: Your argument fails because it was a man that guaranteed the promises of God.
The Lord at our right hand means in God's strength, and power, I'll let you look up those passages.
We are rewarded, yet they are God's works, in His strength.

1 Chronicles 5:18 The sons of Reuben, and the Gadites, and half the tribe of Manasseh, of valiant men, men able to bear buckler and sword, and to shoot with bow, and skilful in war, were four and forty thousand seven hundred and threescore, that went out to the war. 19 And they made war with the Hagarites, with Jetur, and Nephish, and Nodab. 20 And they were helped against them, and the Hagarites were delivered into their hand, and all that were with them: for they cried to God in the battle, and he was intreated of them; because they put their trust in him. 21 And they took away their cattle; of their camels fifty thousand, and of sheep two hundred and fifty thousand, and of asses two thousand, and of men an hundred thousand. 22 For there fell down many slain, because the war was of God. And they dwelt in their steads until the captivity.​

They laboured, which God commanded them to do, and because the battle was God’s, He gave them the victory, and caused their enemy to fall. They had to do, but because they put their trust in God, God gave them the victory, it was God's doing, they could not boast in their own strength.

Isaiah 10:15 Shall the axe (person) boast itself against him (God) that heweth therewith? or shall the saw (person) magnify itself against him (God) that shaketh it? as if the rod (person) should shake itself against them (God) that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.​

Isaiah 26:12 Lord, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our worksin us.​

Paul laboured, but does not take the credit for his work, but gives the credit to Gods grace. In all things we receive from God.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured (Colossians 1:29) more abundantly than they all: yetnot I, but the grace of God which was with me (God was with him, was not God also with Christ Acts 10:38?).​

Philippians 2:12 ( KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

So, it is, and must be God working through us, by His Spirit, in His strength, as He did in Jesus, who is our example. Though we work, and we are rewarded 1 Corinthians 3:8,14; 9:17; Colossians 3:23-24.

They were in essence tempting God to break his covenant. This is to tempt God to lie. Think man! The same was true of the temptation of Jesus. For Jesus to 'test' God would have been for him to tempt God to break his covenant which would have been to tempt God to lie.
Do we not understand the message in 1 John 1, that is given to us? God is Light, darkness cannot approach the Sun. This tells us God cannot be tempted, for darkness cannot approach Him.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

7xlightray

Newbie
Jun 30, 2013
515
29
✟15,256.00
Faith
Christian
My response was there are other acceptable explanations for His not telling them when He would return besides assuming He did not know or was not God. The "doctrine" does not say why He did not tell Him or if He knew (or not). Am not sure where you are getting your information on what the "doctrine" teaches.
Zechariah 14:7 Says, “But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD...” so, if Jesus is claiming to be the YHWH, then scripture must have a good reason why Jesus does not know, it must explain this. Not someone suggesting some reasons, “maybe he..., or because...” that is not acceptable, man coming up with his own excuses, certainly not something this important. But if we don't try to turn Jesus into the YHWH, scriptures work, without contradictions, and make sense, and flow naturally.
If we cannot fully explain everything about God then any enlightenment we have is meaningless. Interesting concept. Curious to know if your explanation of God meaningless as well then?
But you can't explain the trinity! And on the other hand, do you know what Spirit is, and how it works?
I've believed Trinity, and I believed what I believe now, and what I believe now works with scripture, Trinity does not, sometimes it seems like it works, but we can say that about many doctrines.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.