Futurist Only Babilon

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

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One of my favorite verses

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AlasBabylon said in post 120:

Isaiah 13:17 = Cyrus' Medes = Cyrus united Medes and Persians into one Persian empire and conquered ancient Babylon.

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Actually, the city of Babylon referred to in Isaiah 13 (verses 1,19) isn't the ancient city of Babylon, just as it isn't the symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" of Revelation. Instead, it is only the present-day, literal city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, 2nd-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Isaiah 13:10 refers to the same, future, 2nd-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31.

Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' 2nd coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East which in ancient times was called "Media" and is now in northwestern Iran.

In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes who conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.

AlasBabylon said in post 120:

Mystery Babylon = end of the age globalist world empire

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By "globalist", do you mean run by humans who are "globalists"?

If so, note that ultimately, the power behind the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon) himself (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), just as the controllers of the unsaved world have always been (and are still currently) Lucifer and his fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2-3). But there could indeed also be a secret cabal of human "globalist" world leaders in big business, finance, intelligence agencies, federal law enforcement, politics, the media/entertainment, the military, and religion, who know this fact, and so have secretly become worshippers of Lucifer in order to obtain from him all of the world's power, wealth, and pleasures that they can (cf. Matthew 4:9).

These Luciferians could have been working secretly together for some time (including through a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation) to prepare the way politically, economically, culturally, militarily, and religiously for a single Luciferian human world leader (the Antichrist) to take hegemony over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7b) and, along with his miracle-working False Prophet, to bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 19:20). God will let them succeed in this, but for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5b, Daniel 12:11-12), before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

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Before Jesus returns, Revelation 13:2b refers to when Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so that the Antichrist will have power over all the nations of the earth (Revelation 13:7). This is what Satan offered Jesus, if he would worship Satan (Luke 4:5-7). In the 1st century AD, Satan's earthly throne was in the city of Pergamum (in what is now Turkey) (Revelation 2:12-13). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the 7 wonders of the world.

It may not be just a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900 AD, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune" (Pergamon Altar - Wikipedia) (quote has been deleted for some reason). When the Antichrist is given power over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the literal city of Babylon since ancient times.

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Also, if Ezekiel 28:2 has application to future events because of its similarity to the never-fulfilled 2 Thessalonians 2:4, then the prince of Tyre could be the future human ruler commonly called the Antichrist (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:5-18). If that is the case, then the king of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:12) could be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon), who will empower the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). Lucifer, before his fall and man's fall, could have been placed as a covering cherub over Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-15).

There is a curious correlation between the prince and the king of Tyre on the one hand (Ezekiel 28), and the use of the name "Hiram" in the mystical teachings of a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation. For Hiram was the name of the human king of Tyre at the time of the building of King Solomon's temple (1 Kings 5). Also, Hiram was the name of another person from Tyre, the human master workman who helped Solomon build the temple (1 Kings 7:13-14). If the king and the prince of Tyre addressed in Ezekiel 28 are Lucifer and the Antichrist, then the name Hiram would be a perfect code name (not the actual name) for both of them, a name by which their identity within the Gnostic Luciferian teachings of the worldwide secret society could be kept secret from all but its highest-level initiates. Just as the human workman named Hiram built a temple to God in which all the world was to worship (1 Kings 8:41-43), so the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Revelation 13:4), when the Antichrist gains power over the earth (Revelation 13:7).

The Antichrist's future, Luciferian rule over the earth could be pictured by the most common, publicly known symbol for the worldwide secret society, in which a drafting/measuring compass, an instrument shaped like the 2 legs of an "A" (as in "Antichrist"), is sometimes shown standing on top of a globe of the earth. And beneath, as in support of, the "A" is a drafting/measuring square, an instrument shaped like an "L" (as in "Lucifer"). Also, found within the "L" is the letter "G", which could ultimately stand for the (false) "Gnosis" (knowledge) of Gnosticism (cf. the original Greek of 1 Timothy 6:20b), which the secret society (mistakenly) thinks can be found in Lucifer. The Antichrist will teach the ancient Gnostic lie that YHWH God is evil (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), and the ancient Gnostic lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will also deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

Bible2, you post some good points from scripture, but when you break into speculation and opinion, you lose credibility.

Re: who or where is Babylon today? [I dislike the mis-spelled thread title!]
I mentioned that Babylon could be New York, as it fits how the ships standing far off see her burning. Revelation 18:17-19 However I do believe Babylon is the type of all todays nations, they have all drunk of the wine of her fornication, her wealth and luxury. This is all the rich Western nations, now apostate and atheistic, violating God's Laws. Revelation 18:3 & 9
Verse 8 tells us what the Lord will do to this Babylonish world: in one Day, He will send fire and within an hour, Revelation 18:19b, all will be laid waste.
This terrible Day of fiery wrath will change the world and enable the establishment of an OWG. Then all the rest of the end times prophesies take place, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus.

Bible2+ said:

There could indeed be a literal city which will be called "Babylon" by the world, and which will be built up in our future.

For the 7 heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

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Amen.

For on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18,19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), while the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices for sin (e.g. Leviticus 23:19), while the New Covenant replaced these with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:22-25), so that those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:22-31).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (including the letter of the 10 commandments) written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8) was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8.

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been completely and forever done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it is still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), while the New Covenant is the ministration of the spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8,9b) which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits believers to remove the veil and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any believers are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law thinking that they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus will profit them nothing; they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

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I don't believe the 7th kingdom is Islam but imo the world government of the false messianic age ... With the sons of David restored to the southern kingdom...the 10 kingdoms of the north will consist of the 10 lost tribes restored... This is when the new temple is built as well as Babylon the city in shinar ...

The 8th kingdom and final antichrist imo will be a man who claims to be the God of Israel or a false Yeshua...
He will lead the 10 northern kingdoms against those Jews or saints that found the light ... Namely the 144000 and those who will believe their testimony that the true messiah is still yet to come and very soon...

dfw69 said:

I don't believe the 7th kingdom is Islam but imo the world government of the false messianic age ... With the sons of David restored to the southern kingdom...the 10 kingdoms of the north will consist of the 10 lost tribes restored... This is when the new temple is built as well as Babylon the city in shinar ...

The 8th kingdom and final antichrist imo will be a man who claims to be the God of Israel or a false Yeshua...
He will lead the 10 northern kingdoms against those Jews or saints that found the light ... Namely the 144000 and those who will believe their testimony that the true messiah is still yet to come and very soon...

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Wow, talk about speculation and opinion!
The ten tribes, the ten kingdoms? Please; that kind of unbiblical guesswork belongs in Hollywood.

Re Islam; after the Lord's Day of wrath against the nations, they won't exist. Ezekiel 30:2-5, Amos 1:1-15, Zephaniah 2:4-5

keras said:

Wow, talk about speculation and opinion!
The ten tribes, the ten kingdoms? Please; that kind of unbiblical guesswork belongs in Hollywood.

Re Islam; after the Lord's Day of wrath against the nations, they won't exist. Ezekiel 30:2-5, Amos 1:1-15, Zephaniah 2:4-5

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Well there is the belief that the lost ten tribes are the nations of the world ... Place 10 kings over them during the false messianic age and have them submit to the noachide laws and presto the 7th kingdom comes alive ..

dfw69 said:

Well there is the belief that the lost ten tribes are the nations of the world ... Place 10 kings over them during the false messianic age and have them submit to the noachide laws and presto the 7th kingdom comes alive ..

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Quite right, the ten Northern tribes remain to this day; scattered among the nations.
But we await the great spiritual awakening and rejoining with Judah, of Ezekiel 37 and the gathering back into all of the holy Land. This will happen soon after the Lord's Day of wrath, which will clear the Land. Isaiah 66:15-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31
They will become the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, but the rest of the world will form a One World Govt, divided into 10 regions. These regions are already decided. As you will see: google 10 world regions.
We know from prophecy, that the 10 leaders of each region will either give up or lose their authority to one powerful Leader, who will come to Beulah and negotiate a 7 year peace treaty. At the mid point he will break it and conquer Beulah, Daniel 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2, 1260 days later Jesus will Return, destroying his army and chaining him up. Revelation 19:19-21

keras said:

Quite right, the ten Northern tribes remain to this day; scattered among the nations.
But we await the great spiritual awakening and rejoining with Judah, of Ezekiel 37 and the gathering back into all of the holy Land. This will happen soon after the Lord's Day of wrath, which will clear the Land. Isaiah 66:15-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31
They will become the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, but the rest of the world will form a One World Govt, divided into 10 regions. These regions are already decided. As you will see: google 10 world regions.
We know from prophecy, that the 10 leaders of each region will either give up or lose their authority to one powerful Leader, who will come to Beulah and negotiate a 7 year peace treaty. At the mid point he will break it and conquer Beulah, Daniel 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2, 1260 days later Jesus will Return, destroying his army and chaining him up. Revelation 19:19-21

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So after the return of Jesus to rule from Jerusalem , What will the world look like?... Will there be only one kingdom ruling the entire world ?and none other kingdoms will exist? There will be no other kings in place ruling over the Gentiles ?

dfw69 said:

So after the return of Jesus to rule from Jerusalem , What will the world look like?... Will there be only one kingdom ruling the entire world ?and none other kingdoms will exist? There will be no other kings in place ruling over the Gentiles ?

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Correct.
Jesus will reign over al the earth. But if you care to read Revelation 20:4 you will see how the resurrected saints will share authority with Jesus.

dfw69 said:

So after the return of Jesus to rule from Jerusalem , What will the world look like?... Will there be only one kingdom ruling the entire world ?and none other kingdoms will exist? There will be no other kings in place ruling over the Gentiles ?

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Remember Lord Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords. The kings and lords that He is King and Lord of are His saints.

dfw69 said in post 126:

Well there is the belief that the lost ten tribes are the nations of the world ...

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That is usually expressed as the lost 10 tribes being only the Western European nations (and their former, white colonies, such as America).

But the truth is that there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the 10 northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history.

For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom, when it first become idolatrous, some individuals from all 10 of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews. Also, some individuals from the 10 northern tribes remained in the land of Israel even after its defeat by Assyria, and some of them went to Judah at the time of Hezekiah (2 Chronicles 30). It is for these reasons that later the Jews who returned from the Babylonian Captivity could be referred to as "all Israel" (Ezra 2:70, Ezra 6:17, Ezra 8:25,35, Ezra 10:5, Nehemiah 7:73, Nehemiah 12:47), and why the Jews living in the 1st century AD could be referred to as including all 12 tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1, Acts 2:36,22,5), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

So the people alive today who are descended genetically from a 1st century AD Jew would include individuals from all 12 tribes. Some of these descendants could know that they are Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity, and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity: over the past 2,700 years, their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles, and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

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Also, while God knows which people alive today are descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the 12 genetic tribes arose (Genesis 49:28), nonelect Israelites/Jews aren't considered by God to be truly Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or truly Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9), or God's children or Abraham's children, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all of the nonelect, no matter whether they are Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

Some genetic Israelites are believers, and so are members of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew, Paul the apostle (Acts 22:3) is a member of the church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). And some still-living, non-believing genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they are elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the still-living, elect, non-believing genetic Israelites who don't become believers before Jesus' 2nd coming will become believers (and so will become members of the church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect, genetic Israelites will eventually become believers and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

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Just as those of the tribe of Benjamin, for example (Romans 11:1), are Jews (Acts 22:3) because they are descended from those who lived in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:1-3), so those of all the other tribes of Israel are Jews who are descended from those who came to live in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17). For the definition of "Jew" includes those who have connection with the territory of Judah (See Strong's word numbers G2453, G2448, H3063, and H3064), not just those who are genetically a part of the tribe of Judah.

An analogy would be people born in different countries in Europe, people whose ancestors were also born in those different countries, going back into ancient times. If they immigrate to America and become naturalized citizens of America, this won't change their genetic identities. They will still be genetically English or French or German or Italian or Spanish or Greek, etc. And only the original inhabitants of America, the American Indians, can be said to be genetic Americans. In this analogy, the nation/territory of America represents the kingdom/territory of Judah. The European immigrants represent the genetic members of the tribes of Israel other than Judah. All Americans, including the European immigrants who became naturalized citizens of America, represent all Jews. And the American Indians represent the genetic members of the tribe of Judah. (Again, this is just an analogy for how "Jews" can include genetic members of every tribe of Israel.)

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Also, the 12 tribes of Israel aren't countries or regions (as is sometimes claimed), but consist of individuals who can be living in any country or region. Otherwise, one's tribe would change whenever one moved from one country or region to another. Also, nothing requires that any of the nominally-Christian nations are descended from any of the ancient 12 tribes of Israel, instead of them all simply being Gentile nations. For Christians come from every ethnicity on the earth (Revelation 5:9b), and only a remnant of genetic Israel gets saved (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity as a whole gets saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14). Also, the entire church throughout the world is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12).

For just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

dfw69 said:

The 8th kingdom and final antichrist imo will be a man who claims to be the God of Israel or a false Yeshua...
He will lead the 10 northern kingdoms against those Jews or saints that found the light ...

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Hi dfw, what 10 kingdoms are you seeing written in the text? It is ten kings, not ten kingdoms.

In Daniel 7, they are of one kingdom - the fourth kingdom. And in Revelation 17, they give their kingdom singular to the beast. Some parts of that kingdom are weak; other parts strong. Greece, Portugal, Ireland the weak; England, France, Germany the strong. The cultures doesn't mix, iron and clay. It's the EU, when that final form comes about.

Douggg said:

Hi dfw, what 10 kingdoms are you seeing written in the text? It is ten kings, not ten kingdoms.

In Daniel 7, they are of one kingdom - the fourth kingdom. And in Revelation 17, they give their kingdom singular to the beast. Some parts of that kingdom are weak; other parts strong. Greece, Portugal, Ireland the weak; England, France, Germany the strong. The cultures doesn't mix, iron and clay. It's the EU, when that final form comes about.

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One kingdom with 10 kings?...ok

I believe these 10 kings will exist when the false messianic age is established... I assume they will uphold the king of Judah's wishes ...the law will come out of Judah ruling the world...

And one day after this world domination is well established a little horn will rise up to conquer and the 10 kings will give their power I assume to be kingdoms to the final beast ...

dfw69 said:

One kingdom with 10 kings?...ok

I believe these 10 kings will exist when the false messianic age is established... I assume they will uphold the king of Judah's wishes ...the law will come out of Judah ruling the world...

And one day after this world domination is well established a little horn will rise up to conquer and the 10 kings will give their power I assume to be kingdoms to the final beast ...

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The false messianic age begins when the person becomes the Antichrist (false messiah), anointed as the King of Israel. And ends when he reveals himself as being the revealed man of sin.

The remainder of the 7 years, we can call the Day of the Lord, a dark and foreboding time.... culminating with the Day of Christ and His Glorious return.

I agree that the 10 kings have to exist before the false messianic age begins.... but let's look at the scenario, which makes it happen.

This scenario is super easy to understand, that no-one should be overwhelmed with it.

The order of events is that the EU has first got to evolve into it final form of a ten leader (king) form of government. Which I think they are going to have ten regions of equal population to get equal representation. Which would mean some of the regions would be made up of two maybe three or four countries.

Over all the ten kings will be the little horn. The leader of Europe. The 7th king of the fourth empire, a descendant of the Julio-Claudians. We have to work that 7th king into the scenario, because that's what is in Revelation 17.

Once the ten kings governing body is in power and the little horn ruling Europe - then we have the situation that is going to develop which the little horn ends up in Israel, along with his European army occupying the middle east. The false messianic age still not started yet.

The situation that triggers everything is the Gog/Magog attack seems imminent, and the little horn mobilizes and stages his EU army in Greece, the stated objective to keep peace in the region and support Israel.

Gog/Magog goes ahead and takes place. With God supernaturally destroying Gog's army with supernatural disasters as it is in Ezekiel 38. The little horn and his EU army arrive in Israel and the middle east... as the prince who shall come, peace keeper. The motivator for the ten kings is to get control of all the middle east oil. The little horn is their guy, because he delivers... he himself getting help from the occult involvement (Kabbalah) early on for his success for his rise and power.

The Jews in the aftermath of Gog/Magog have messiah fever. In great part because that is what their eschatology experts assert - the messianic age follows Gog/Magog.

They believe that the little horn person is the messiah, with God clearing the way for him and the messianic age by destroying Gog/Magog, their muslim enemies, freeing the temple mount, peace safety harmony for every one.

The little horn, the prince who shall come to Israel, a Jew, his religion Judaism which denies Jesus, and with ego unmatched thinks of himself as yes he is the messiah! Coming in his own name, someone that God did not choose to become their king.

So he transitions from being the little horn leader of Europe, to being the Messiah, king of Israel, and hope of the world. He oversees the reading of the law from the temple mount, in pomp and ceremony, his first act as the messiah and anointed King of Israel - the false prophet will be right there to anoint him. The false prophet springing up from Israel - the beast coming out of the earth in Revelation 13.

The reading of the law, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant (Deuteronomy 31:9-13) begins the 7 years.

The little horn is no longer the prince who shall come to Israel, but mr. messiah, false messiah actually, known as the Antichrist.

Everything goes good initially, in the false messianic age. So much so, that many Christians will believe that they made a big mistake in believing in Jesus and the great falling away will take place. Then it happens....

The Antichrist begins to think in his heart that he has achieved God-hood, in large part due to involvement into the occult, craft, Kabbalah. He goes into the temple and shows the world his new status - coming out of the closet, the revealed man of sin.

The Jews will be mortified and reject him as continuing as their king - ending his time as the Antichrist, and also ending the false messianic age.

God has the revealed man of sin killed (also ending his time as the 7th king leader of Europe) ; then brings him back to life in total disdain for the person. It is strong delusion that God lays on the world for embracing the guy as the messiah, and claiming to be god.

As the person is brought back to life, Satan empowers him with a spirit, the beast in the bottomless pit. It says in Revelation 17 that the 7th king when he comes, (after he is killed and comes back to life) must continue a short space. That short space is the 42 months of Revelation 13, as the mortal wounded and healed 7th head (first appearing as the little horn), now though with power previous not held; possessed, he has transformed into the beast... the 8th king of the Roman Empire, and also the king of Mystery Babylon - Satan's kingdom come - the world unified in defiance of God.

The ten kings, his original power base, really never did care anything about Israel... so what about Irsael's messianic notions. It was all about the oil and power. Their man the little horn delivered. And now he has shown that he had achieved God-hood, by overcoming death and the grave. So they pledge their EU kingdom to him.

The Europeans leaders, the ten kings, latching onto the beast's claim of being God, have no further use for the RCC and Vatican, which will be nothing more than an impediment to the beast's agenda. A good number of Christians will have already fallen away. So resistance will be minimal, as they burned the Vatican to the ground.

So that's about it, dfw, although I didn't see it as necessary to address the rest of the seven years. The scenario for the little horn/prince who shall come/Antichrist/revealed man of sin/ the beast is easy to understand.


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Douggg said:

The false messianic age begins when the person becomes the Antichrist (false messiah), anointed as the King of Israel. And ends when he reveals himself as being the revealed man of sin.

The remainder of the 7 years, we can call the Day of the Lord, a dark and foreboding time.... culminating with the Day of Christ and His Glorious return.

I agree that the 10 kings have to exist before the false messianic age begins.... but let's look at the scenario, which makes it happen.

This scenario is super easy to understand, that no-one should be overwhelmed with it.

The order of events is that the EU has first got to evolve into it final form of a ten leader (king) form of government. Which I think they are going to have ten regions of equal population to get equal representation. Which would mean some of the regions would be made up of two maybe three or four countries.

Over all the ten kings will be the little horn. The leader of Europe. The 7th king of the fourth empire, a descendant of the Julio-Claudians. We have to work that 7th king into the scenario, because that's what is in Revelation 17.

Once the ten kings governing body is in power and the little horn ruling Europe - then we have the situation that is going to develop which the little horn ends up in Israel, along with his European army occupying the middle east. The false messianic age still not started yet.

The situation that triggers everything is the Gog/Magog attack seems imminent, and the little horn mobilizes and stages his EU army in Greece, the stated objective to keep peace in the region and support Israel.

Gog/Magog goes ahead and takes place. With God supernaturally destroying Gog's army with supernatural disasters as it is in Ezekiel 38. The little horn and his EU army arrive in Israel and the middle east... as the prince who shall come, peace keeper. The motivator for the ten kings is to get control of all the middle east oil. The little horn is their guy, because he delivers... he himself getting help from the occult involvement (Kabbalah) early on for his success for his rise and power.

The Jews in the aftermath of Gog/Magog have messiah fever. In great part because that is what their eschatology experts assert - the messianic age follows Gog/Magog.

They believe that the little horn person is the messiah, with God clearing the way for him and the messianic age by destroying Gog/Magog, their muslim enemies, freeing the temple mount, peace safety harmony for every one.

The little horn, the prince who shall come to Israel, a Jew, his religion Judaism which denies Jesus, and with ego unmatched thinks of himself as yes he is the messiah! Coming in his own name, someone that God did not choose to become their king.

So he transitions from being the little horn leader of Europe, to being the Messiah, king of Israel, and hope of the world. He oversees the reading of the law from the temple mount, in pomp and ceremony, his first act as the messiah and anointed King of Israel - the false prophet will be right there to anoint him. The false prophet springing up from Israel - the beast coming out of the earth in Revelation 13.

The reading of the law, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant (Deuteronomy 31:9-13) begins the 7 years.

The little horn is no longer the prince who shall come to Israel, but mr. messiah, false messiah actually, known as the Antichrist.

Everything goes good initially, in the false messianic age. So much so, that many Christians will believe that they made a big mistake in believing in Jesus and the great falling away will take place. Then it happens....

The Antichrist begins to think in his heart that he has achieved God-hood, in large part due to involvement into the occult, craft, Kabbalah. He goes into the temple and shows the world his new status - coming out of the closet, the revealed man of sin.

The Jews will be mortified and reject him as continuing as their king - ending his time as the Antichrist, and also ending the false messianic age.

God has the revealed man of sin killed (also ending his time as the 7th king leader of Europe) ; then brings him back to life in total disdain for the person. It is strong delusion that God lays on the world for embracing the guy as the messiah, and claiming to be god.

As the person is brought back to life, Satan empowers him with a spirit, the beast in the bottomless pit. It says in Revelation 17 that the 7th king when he comes, (after he is killed and comes back to life) must continue a short space. That short space is the 42 months of Revelation 13, as the mortal wounded and healed 7th head (first appearing as the little horn), now though with power previous not held; possessed, he has transformed into the beast... the 8th king of the Roman Empire, and also the king of Mystery Babylon - Satan's kingdom come - the world unified in defiance of God.

The ten kings, his original power base, really never did care anything about Israel... so what about Irsael's messianic notions. It was all about the oil and power. Their man the little horn delivered. And now he has shown that he had achieved God-hood, by overcoming death and the grave. So they pledge their EU kingdom to him.

The Europeans leaders, the ten kings, latching onto the beast's claim of being God, have no further use for the RCC and Vatican, which will be nothing more than an impediment to the beast's agenda. A good number of Christians will have already fallen away. So resistance will be minimal, as they burned the Vatican to the ground.

So that's about it, dfw, although I didn't see it as necessary to address the rest of the seven years. The scenario for the little horn/prince who shall come/Antichrist/revealed man of sin/ the beast is easy to understand.


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I think the Zionist government will back up the man who will get the victory over a gog Magog war ...a man who seems to be fulfilling messianic prophecies ..he will most likely be a son of David and he will be established as the king of Judah ..the temple will be built Israel enlarged the lost tribes return and Babylon rebuilt and 10 kings put in place over old Roman Empire territory

The final antichrist will be born during this false messianic age ... Perhaps born in Babylon ..he is an Assyrian born under noachide laws which is the law for Gentiles ... Since we are speculating ...I think perhaps He will see the injustice of noachide law and believe Jew and Gentiles should be one people under one law...he will lead the 10 kings against Judah to get the victory over the issues of that day ...but he will overstep his commission and be judged ...

because of his victories the people will actually think he is either the true messiah Jesus or God the father himself ...so he will be very convincing somehow

Douggg said in post 134:

The false messianic age begins when the person becomes the Antichrist (false messiah), anointed as the King of Israel.

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Note that "anti"-Christ can simply refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in any "opponent of the Messiah" (Strong's Greek Dictionary, Word #500: antichristos), as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the 1st century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

And note that nothing requires that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ. For his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (i.e. the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

But none of this means that there won't also be multiple, human false Christs who will arise during the tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a) in Israel, promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

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That is, in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are militarily defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false "Messiah" being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false "Messiah" and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

Douggg said in post 134:

The false messianic age begins when the person becomes the Antichrist (false messiah), anointed as the King of Israel.

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Note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Judaism in its past and current form, insofar as Judaism worships YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5), while the Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:5). And Judaism rejects Lucifer/Satan as being evil (Zechariah 3:2, Isaiah 14:12), while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer/Satan (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). And Judaism forbids the worship of any images (Leviticus 26:1), while the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15).

Regarding the idea of the Antichrist being Jewish by blood, both his parents could be Arabs (if his mother wasn't impregnated by Satan). But from some long-ago ancestor, the Antichrist could also have some Jewish blood in him, from the tribe of Dan (Genesis 49:17), which could be the reason that the tribe of Dan isn't included in the 12 tribes of the 144,000 (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19).

The Antichrist could have grown up as a Druze Arab, in Lebanon, in the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). So he could at first present himself to the world as being of the (quasi-Islamic) Druze religion, which is waiting for the 2nd coming of a God-man named Hakim. The Antichrist's last name could be Hakim, and he could at first present himself to the Druze people as the fulfillment of the 2nd coming of this God-man. In this way, he could get the Druze to support him without question during an initial rise to power among the Arabs. The Druze Arabs could be the numerically "small people" of Daniel 11:23. The Antichrist could make them his completely-devoted bodyguard, and buy them many key positions of power within a future United Arab States (which the Antichrist could become the leader of in the 1st stage of his world takeover), and employ the Druze as loyal spies and assassins at every level of his United Arab government and military.

The Druze religion is very secretive. What it teaches to its higher-level initiates isn't even taught to its lower-level initiates. What it could teach to its higher-level initiates could basically be Gnosticism mixed in with the Hakim God-man idea. The Antichrist himself, while outwardly a Druze, could inwardly be a Gnostic Luciferian. He could be a highest-level initiate of a worldwide secret society which ultimately teaches Gnostic Luciferianism, but keeps this a secret even from its own members who haven't been initiated into its highest level.

Douggg said in post 134:

The remainder of the 7 years, we can call the Day of the Lord . . .

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Note that the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Douggg said in post 134:

Gog/Magog goes ahead and takes place.

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Note that the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least 2 major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the millennium, at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

Douggg said in post 134:

Coming in his own name, someone that God did not choose to become their king.

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Note that nothing requires that John 5:43b refers to the Antichrist, instead of to an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" whom the Antichrist will "cut" a 7-year peace treaty with (Daniel 9:26a,27a), after the Antichrist defeats him and his followers (Daniel 11:22-23a).

Anyone who receives the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") can never be saved (Revelation 14:9-11), whereas there will be Jews who will be saved after the time of the Antichrist, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26, Zechariah 12:10-14). Therefore, not all Jews will receive the Antichrist. They could survive his reign by hiding from him. And those in Jerusalem could be protected from him by the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3,5).

Douggg said in post 134:

The false prophet springing up from Israel - the beast coming out of the earth in Revelation 13.

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The beast which comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 indeed represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). But note that nothing requires that he will come from Israel. Instead, he could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in 2 religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the 2 horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus. (But he won't say that he is Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Douggg said in post 134:

The false prophet springing up from Israel - the beast coming out of the earth in Revelation 13.

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The False-Prophet beast figuratively coming from the land (Revelation 13:11) could mean that he will come from Christianity, while the Antichrist beast figuratively coming from the sea (Revelation 13:1) could mean that he won't come from Christianity.

Douggg said in post 134:

The reading of the law, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant (Deuteronomy 31:9-13) begins the 7 years.

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Note that Deuteronomy 31:10-11 refers only to the reading of the Old Covenant Mosaic law as it was given in the entire book of Deuteronomy (Deuteronomy 31:12b, Deuteronomy 28:58, Deuteronomy 27:26, Nehemiah 8), and only "at the end" of 7 years, meaning at the end of every 7 years, and only while the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was still in effect (it was abolished on the Cross: Ephesians 2:15-16).

Note that this has nothing to do with Daniel 9:27a, which includes reference to one particular, future, man-made peace treaty/covenant (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a) being confirmed at the start of one particular, future 7-year period.

Douggg said in post 134:

So much so, that many Christians will believe that they made a big mistake in believing in Jesus and the great falling away will take place.

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Note that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that he is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the 1st book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And he could claim that even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing that it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is that 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply show that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same entity.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

Douggg said in post 134:

The Europeans leaders, the ten kings, latching onto the beast's claim of being God, have no further use for the RCC and Vatican, which will be nothing more than an impediment to the beast's agenda. A good number of Christians will have already fallen away. So resistance will be minimal, as they burned the Vatican to the ground.

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Do you mean that the Vatican is the "harlot" that the 10 kings burn in Revelation 17:16? If so, note that while the corrupt aspects of the Vatican are included in what Revelation's symbolic harlot "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, she represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the Vatican. For the Vatican just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the Vatican the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the Vatican the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the Vatican just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the Vatican been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

Bible2+ said:

Note that "anti"-Christ can simply refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in any "opponent of the Messiah" (Strong's Greek Dictionary, Word #500: antichristos), as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the 1st century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7)

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Strong's numbers are not going to do it. Because to accurately define Antichrist - you have define "Christ" in terms of him being the long awaited, hoped for, anointed King of Israel, descended from King David, and identified in Zechariah 9:9 as Israel's and Jerusalem's King, and in Mark 15:32, and that Pilate had a plaque placed on the cross, Jesus of Nazereth, King of the Jews.

A person to become "the" Antichrist, just as Jesus was uniquely "the" Christ, not just an anointed, the person has to become the King of Israel....so NOT JUST ANYONE....qualifies as the Antichrist.... and not simply on the basis of being against Jesus alone.

Bible2+ said:

in Israel, promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

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That makes no sense at all.

Bible2+ said:

Note that Deuteronomy 31:10-11 refers only to the reading of the Old Covenant Mosaic law as it was given in the entire book of Deuteronomy (Deuteronomy 31:12b, Deuteronomy 28:58, Deuteronomy 27:26, Nehemiah 8), and only "at the end" of 7 years, meaning at the end of every 7 years, and only while the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was still in effect (it was abolished on the Cross: Ephesians 2:15-16).

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The first recurring observance was at the end of 7 years from that day, because Moses has already read the law to them. The Jews don't accept the cross, they don't care - Christianity can say their Mt. Sinai covenant was abolished all day long. They don't care what Christianity says. The Jews believe the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 is actually a "renewal" of the Mt. Sinai covenant.

dfw69 said:

I think the Zionist government will back up the man who will get the victory over a gog Magog war ...a man who seems to be fulfilling messianic prophecies ..he will most likely be a son of David and he will be established as the king of Judah ..the temple will be built Israel enlarged the lost tribes return and Babylon rebuilt and 10 kings put in place over old Roman Empire territory

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Probably so. Let's say he is a descendant of David.

Then we go to Isaiah 14, and the person finds himself in hell for a brief stay for claiming to be God - and is cast out of the grave, brought back to life... and is likened to an abominable "branch" who destroys his land and his people Jesus was called the righteous branch. So it is making a directly opposite comparison.

Which, dfw, if the person is brought back to life in Isaiah 14 - how are you discounting him by saying that there is a final Antichrist, another person following him, if I understand you correctly ?

I don't know how you are getting two persons. You know that "the" Christ is not just an anointed, but one unique person, who is the rightful King of Israel that God has sent. "The" Antichrist is one unique person, just as Jesus is one unique person.

The Antichrist is not an office of rotating individuals.

Bible2+ said:

Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

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For 1000 years Jesus will be present and reigning from this earth - and you for some reason think that the Jews seeing Him everyday won't be aware of it?

This passage would not make any sense to be timed at the end of the 1000 years.

Ezekiel 39:
28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.