Do you actually believe that a loving God will torture people in Hell forever?

Bible2+ · Feb 3, 2016

clemenslee said in post 540:

Is the heaven NOW eternal meaning Everlasting?

That depends on which heaven you are referring to.

For there are 3 heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The 1st heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The 2nd heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a 4th) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the 2 witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the 3rd heaven, there is currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the 3rd heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.

Currently, the 3rd heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the 3rd heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

The earth's 3rd heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can been explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's 3rd heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

clemenslee said in post 540:

Is the heaven NOW eternal meaning Everlasting?

Regarding the 1st heaven, no.

For if we look at 2 Peter 3:10-13, we see that in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of (the 1st) heaven (the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface). This will occur at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

But the day of the Lord won't (as is sometimes claimed) immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All of these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

clemenslee said in post 540:

Is the heaven NOW eternal meaning Everlasting?

Regarding the 2nd heaven (outer space, the visible universe), no.

Atheists sometimes mistakenly assert that man can exist forever in this universe without the need for any God. But the truth is that our visible universe is expanding more and more rapidly. Its heat is getting more and more spread out. It will eventually become so extremely cold everywhere in the visible universe that no mortal life will be able to exist anywhere. So if mortal mankind were to exist forever (i.e. through successive generations), it would still need God to put mortal mankind into a new universe after this one wears out (Hebrews 1:10-12).

clemenslee said in post 540:

Is the heaven NOW eternal meaning Everlasting?

Regarding the 3rd heaven, yes:

Psalms 119:89 ¶LAMED. For ever, O YHWH, thy word is settled in heaven.

clemenslee · Feb 3, 2016

Bible2+ said:
That depends on which heaven you are referring to.

For there are 3 heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The 1st heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The 2nd heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a 4th) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the 2 witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the 3rd heaven, there is currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the 3rd heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.

Currently, the 3rd heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the 3rd heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

The earth's 3rd heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can been explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's 3rd heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

Regarding the 1st heaven, no.

For if we look at 2 Peter 3:10-13, we see that in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of (the 1st) heaven (the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface). This will occur at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

But the day of the Lord won't (as is sometimes claimed) immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All of these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

Regarding the 2nd heaven (outer space, the visible universe), no.

Atheists sometimes mistakenly assert that man can exist forever in this universe without the need for any God. But the truth is that our visible universe is expanding more and more rapidly. Its heat is getting more and more spread out. It will eventually become so extremely cold everywhere in the visible universe that no mortal life will be able to exist anywhere. So if mortal mankind were to exist forever (i.e. through successive generations), it would still need God to put mortal mankind into a new universe after this one wears out (Hebrews 1:10-12).

Regarding the 3rd heaven, yes:

Psalms 119:89 ¶LAMED. For ever, O YHWH, thy word is settled in heaven.

Thanks for the reply,

I agree there are 3 heavens, but just as you said when you die you go to Paradise or 3rd heaven. But 3rd heaven is not the final destination. Because 3rd heaven is coming with Christ at his return. And when he makes New Earth and New Heaven it will be with the 3rd heaven, no longer a separation between them. So in a sense 3rd now is not for ever or the final destination.

Bible2+ · Feb 4, 2016

clemenslee said in post 542:

3rd heaven is coming with Christ at his return.

Actually, it isn't. Only the souls and the angels in the 3rd heaven will come with him (1 Thessalonians 4:14b, Matthew 25:31).

That is, 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before he descends to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

clemenslee said in post 542:

3rd heaven is coming with Christ at his return.

By "3rd heaven", are you thinking of the city of New Jerusalem? If so, it isn't the 3rd heaven, but is now in the 3rd heaven.

That is, New Jerusalem is a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It is God the Father's house in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (John 14:2). All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The church looks for Jesus' return from the 3rd heaven (Philippians 3:20), and the setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the 3rd heaven to the earth until after a new earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). The Father and Jesus themselves will be the only temple in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22).

clemenslee said in post 542:

So in a sense 3rd now is not for ever or the final destination.

While the 3rd heaven won't be the final destination for believers who have died, it will still exist forever as a place (Psalms 119:89).

anna ~ grace · Feb 22, 2016

No, I don't believe that a loving God would torture us for eternity, or that God desires for this to happen. As I understand it the Greek of the NT uses two words where we see "hell" written in many English translations. If God desires to save us through faith in His Son and the remission of sins, what makes us think that He wouldn't give every human soul at least an opportunity to call on Christ, repent, and be saved? It seems likely to me that such an end is actually what they Day of Resurrection is going to be about.

Bible2+ · Feb 23, 2016

Gracia Singh said in post 544:

As I understand it the Greek of the NT uses two words where we see "hell" written in many English translations.

That's right.

And this is because there are 2 literal hells, one temporary and one eternal. The temporary hell, called Hades in Greek (Luke 16:23) and Sheol in Hebrew (Psalms 86:13), is where the souls of unsaved people go when they die, and where they are tormented by flame (Luke 16:23-24). Before Jesus' 1st coming, Hades was also where the souls of saved people went when they died, but the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Luke 16:25).

After Jesus fulfilled the gospel by dying for our sins on the Cross and rising physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), he went down into Hades and preached the fulfillment of the gospel to the souls there (1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:6), and then drew the souls of obedient believers there (who had died in faith: Hebrews 11:13) up with him when he ascended into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-24). Since then, the souls of obedient believers go directly into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11).

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14), and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), all unsaved people of all times will be physically resurrected out of Hades and judged (Revelation 20:12-13), and then cast into the eternal hell, called the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8), where they will be tormented along with Satan and his fallen angels in fire and brimstone forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). This eternal hell is also called Gehenna in Greek (Luke 12:5, Mark 9:45-46) and Tophet in Hebrew (Isaiah 30:33).

Tophet was also the name of a place in ancient times called the valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10), just outside the southern wall of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). "Gehenna" literally means "the valley (ge) of Hinnom". Just as the ancient Tophet/Gehenna was outside the wall of ancient Jerusalem, so the eternal Gehenna, the lake of fire, will be just outside one wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8). Saved people will go forth from New Jerusalem to witness the eternal torment of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:46, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).

Gracia Singh said in post 544:

If God desires to save us through faith in His Son and the remission of sins, what makes us think that He wouldn't give every human soul at least an opportunity to call on Christ, repent, and be saved? It seems likely to me that such an end is actually what they Day of Resurrection is going to be about.

Are you thinking of:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If so, note that this doesn't assure a resurrection to eternal life. For while even the unsaved will be ultimately resurrected (Revelation 20:12-15), it will be to their ultimate damnation (John 5:29b) in the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone with Satan and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

Also, this applies even to the elect. For even though they all get initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b, John 6:37a), and Jesus won't physically lose any of them, but will physically resurrect all of them (John 6:39) at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23), some of them will be resurrected to damnation (John 5:29), to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 23, 2016

Bible2+ said:
Hades in Greek (Luke 16:23) and Sheol in Hebrew (Psalms 86:13), is where the souls of unsaved people go when they die,... also where the souls of saved people went when they died,

Where do you get your understanding that souls exist beyond death? That's not what the Bible teaches, for a soul is the combination of the body and the breath of life. See Genesis 2:7. When we die, our soul ceases to exist, our breath stops and our bodies return to the ground.

The word soul can have the following meanings in the Bible... person or people, life, breath, individual etc.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/soul/

To state that we have an immortal soul is giving credence to Satan's lie to Eve in the garden that we shall not surely die.

Achilles6129 · Feb 23, 2016

Yes, and clearly a terribly evil crime would have to be committed in order for someone to deserve eternal torture in hell. The NT (and OT) make(s) it clear that God believes they are guilty of this crime.

Bible2+ · Feb 24, 2016

EastCoastRemnant said in post 546:

When we die, our soul ceases to exist, our breath stops and our bodies return to the ground.

Are you thinking of the doctrine which is usually referred to as "soul sleep"?

If so, note that only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

Also, the future, eternal, conscious torment of the unsaved must not be considered as eternal life, but as an eternal, conscious, ongoing, 2nd death (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45b-46).

EastCoastRemnant said in post 546:

When we die, our soul ceases to exist, our breath stops and our bodies return to the ground.

Materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and that human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they are referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness being ultimately based on spirit would make sense, for God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), for everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13, Psalms 148).

Bible2+ · Feb 24, 2016

Achilles6129 said in post 547:

Yes, and clearly a terribly evil crime would have to be committed in order for someone to deserve eternal torture in hell. The NT (and OT) make(s) it clear that God believes they are guilty of this crime.

People sometimes say that eternal suffering would be an excessive punishment for only a finite lifetime's worth of sin. But just as it is not how long it took someone to commit a murder that makes him deserving of life in prison, so it is not how long people sin that makes them deserving of eternal suffering (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). Instead, it is the infinite importance of God (Isaiah 40:17) whom they sin against (Psalms 51:4), so that their sin is of infinite magnitude. An analogy would be a mother speaking rudely to her little child. The world isn't going to punish the mother for that. But if that same mother speaks rudely to a judge in a court of law, she could get locked up in jail for contempt of court. For the world considers not speaking rudely to a judge (and all that he represents) of much more importance than not speaking rudely to a little child.

mmksparbud · Feb 24, 2016

Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ecc_9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa_88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Psa_115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

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Do you actually believe that a loving God will torture people in Hell forever?

Bible2+

Matthew 4:4

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clemenslee

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Bible2+

Matthew 4:4

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anna ~ grace

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Matthew 4:4

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EastCoastRemnant

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Achilles6129

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Matthew 4:4

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mmksparbud

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