Isaiah 52-53 ~ Israel or The Messiah? - part 2

rakovsky

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PS :) Why no responses to part 3? Not that I care of course :rolleyes::) ><>
First question will be why we need to care about Is. 53. Whether it predicts Messiah or ancient Israel as Servant, so what?
Just because Tanakh makes a prediction must mean it MUST happen? How do Jews and Christians know that it MUST happen?

And if Tanakh predicts Messiah gets killed in 1st century (Dan 9) with nails in hands (Psalm 22), and then we read this happened to Jesus, so what? Does this PROVE Isaiah was thinking exactly of Jesus? Question to skeptics/nonChristians: How did Isaiah guess right if it turns out to be a real life "coincidence"?
 
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peepnklown

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Good argument. OK, change lane now. One theme in Isaiah 52, 53 is (according to you and LoAmmi): Israel is bruised, SO THAT the world is healed. Israel is bruised. That is true. But, how is the world been healed? I do not see ANY sign of that, from whoever's point of view.

I reviewed my posts and I do not see me saying that (Isaiah 52:13 – Isaiah 53:12).
God promises a brighter future in which Israel will prosper and be redeemed in the sight of the nations of the world.
 
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peepnklown

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Please, let's talk about more interesting things, rather then debating poetry without you even looking at my site to care what I believe.

I didn’t say he did not write the letter. I said I am leery of the letter because, Rambam’s (Maimonides) more authoritative source (Mishnah Torah) contradicts what is said in the letter to Yemen. Viewing the letter to Yemen as a counter to the claims of the people he was writing to seems like the more accurate path.


Link your site and I will read. What interesting things would you like to move on too?
I am agnostic. I was given the nickname ‘rabbi’ by a rabbi on this forum years ago because of my vast knowledge of the Tanakh and my vast knowledge of Judaism. I was referencing my 4,600+ post on this forum and not about Isaiah 53 alone.
So, instead of going in circles I will see what you believe and then we can continue our discussion, OK?
 
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rakovsky

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I didn’t say he did not write the letter. I said I am leery of the letter because, Rambam’s (Maimonides) more authoritative source (Mishnah Torah) contradicts what is said in the letter to Yemen. Viewing the letter to Yemen as a counter to the claims of the people he was writing to seems like the more accurate path.
Perhaps they could check the handwriting since we stillhave the original.
http://www.jnul.huji.ac.il/v-exhibitions/rambam/eng/teiman.html

The more interesting things you asked about would be more fundamental about religion. For example, how do we go about finding the Truth about religion?
I "know" from myself that the soul exists, and I suppose that God exists, and believe in right and compassion and love and life. I suppose that free will exists.
So where do we go from here?
 
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rakovsky

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WhatIsTruth885x339.jpg


According to Lopukhin, in Pilate's time a common feeling in Roman society was that everything is relative, and there was much bribery and people just thought about how to improve their material conditions personally. Pliny said - The only certain thing is that nothing is for certain. That is how Lopukhin (Orthodox commentator) deals with the passage in John 18, where Pilate asks this question of Jesus, and then tell the crowd that he did not find fault in Jesus. One idea says that Pilate just asked this rhetorically and left without expecting an answer. But another idea says that Pilate was beginning to sincerely seek the truth. He had some conscience, and when Jesus' only defense is truth, then Pilate says this rhetorically, but at some level feels it is true and doesn't want to be responsible for the "Jesus Affair", and so he tries to put responsibility on the crowd pressuring him.

Pilate.jpg


I think Pilate was asking an important question. I am not here at the moment to declare to you that Christianity has all answers, since personally I have uncertainties myself, but that Pilate's question is a good way to start seeking deeper "Truth".
 
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juvenissun

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I reviewed my posts and I do not see me saying that (Isaiah 52:13 – Isaiah 53:12).
God promises a brighter future in which Israel will prosper and be redeemed in the sight of the nations of the world.


53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

This is a very important verse for Christian. According to Judaism, how could you make sense out of it? While Israel is suffering, HOW in the world that other nations "are healed"?
 
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peepnklown

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This is a very important verse for Christian. According to Judaism, how could you make sense out of it? While Israel is suffering, HOW in the world that other nations "are healed"?

Isaiah 53:5 ‘But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.'

First, you need a better translation of the Hebrew. It’s not for our, it’s of our or from.

Second, (I am going to try and condense this) in context it’s all about the restoration and vindication of Israel in the messianic age and the nations of the world realize that they are the cause of Israel’s sufferings (in contrast to earlier thought). Further, the nations of the world enjoyed welfare (fortunes) while Israel was chastised (punishment).


I think I might try a new path. Instead of trying to show Christians Isaiah 53 is not about the Jewish Messiah based on the Hebrew, supporting themes in the Hebrew Bible, etc, maybe we should see if Jesus truly fits Isaiah 53. I’m going to take a break and revisit this path.
 
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peepnklown

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OK, RPK.
What do you like to be called? So where do we go from here?

RPK, eh? I like it! :oldthumbsup:

I am a bit hesitant on moving forward because of the way you handled our Rambam (Maimonides) discussion.
1. You use Rambam (Maimonides) to support your claim that Isaiah 53 is about the Jewish Messiah.
I used Rambam’s more authoritative source, the Mishneh Torah to show that it contradicts what is written in the letter to Yemen. So, I provide a counter argument based on his more authoritative source that the letter to Yemen was a counter to the claims of the people and not his actual claims.
2. You imply that I claim the letter to Yemen was not written by Rambam.
I never claimed that and you never deal with my counter argument.
3. You say we have the original which further implies #2.
I again never claimed that and you never deal with my counter argument.

In the end, I don’t feel you did this on purpose. We all make mistakes. I’d rather move on. I am tired of this path. I think another path will be more fruitful when it comes to Isaiah 53.
I will take some time off this subject and come back with a new path. Thanks.
 
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rakovsky

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I think I might try a new path. Instead of trying to show Christians Isaiah 53 is not about the Jewish Messiah based on the Hebrew, supporting themes in the Hebrew Bible, etc, maybe we should see if Jesus truly fits Isaiah 53. I’m going to take a break and revisit this path.
I am certain from my 2 or so years studying Isaiah 53 that Letter to Yemenites is correct that Isaiah 53 is about Messiah.
However, I don't have a strong certainty that the supernatural claims about Jesus are correct, therefore it will be easier for you to attempt to disprove the latter.
Regarding Jesus fulfilling Isaiah 53 the difficult thing is that you will be trying to prove a negative based on general images that Isaiah 53 gives in poetic form. So even though we (or I and Letter to Yemenites at least) practically know that Isaiah 53 is about Messiah, it is less clear how all the depictions in Isaiah 53 might fit or not.

Take for example the opening of Isaiah 52 where it says Servant sprinkles many nations. You can argue that Messiah did not go on a world tour with sprinkling liquids sprinkling them on the heads of many people. However, since it's in poetic form, someone else can say that, metaphorically speaking, Jesus did. The possibility of metaphors and alternate meanings of words is one reason why it's hard to prove a negative when it comes to Jesus being the Servant in Isaiah 53.

My website took a simpler angle - does Scripture predict that Messiah get killed and rise? If so, would Jesus' alleged experience comport with a belief that Messiah gets killed?
It's a different question to ask whether in real life Jesus did the main things.
 
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peepnklown

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Yemenites is correct that Isaiah 53 is about Messiah.
Take for example the opening of Isaiah 52 where it says Servant sprinkles many nations.

I think when you dig deeper the letter to Yemen actually does the opposite, it doesn’t support Isaiah 53 is about the Jewish Messiah. First, why was the letter written? The second part of the letter was written because a man had appeared in Yemen who people claimed was the Messiah and the Rambam was asked about this. Later in the letter after the part you quoted the Rambam denies the association with the Messiah and Isaiah 53. I would read what the Rambam wrote about the Messiah in his Mishnah Torah. ‘If a king will arise from the House of David who occupies himself with the study of the Torah and the performance of the Mitzvos like David his ancestor, in accordance with the Written Law and the Oral Law; and if he will compel all of Israel to follow and strengthen its observance; and if he will fight the wars of God; than he is assumed to be the Messiah. If he does these things and is successful, and he builds the Temple on its place, and gathers in the exiles of Israel, then he is definitely the Messiah.’
He also writes, ‘If he did not succeed to this extent or he was killed, then we know that he is certainly not the one promised by the Torah…’
His writings in the Mishnah Torah contradict what is written in the letter to Yemen thus, it’s most likely he was writing out the claims of the people who believed in his false Messiah in Yemen only to later in the letter denies their claims.
His writings in the Mishnah Torah also invalidate Jesus as the Jewish Messiah.


You need a better translation for Isaiah 52.
It does not say ‘sprinkles’ many nations. The correct translation would be more surprised or astonished or startled.
This is made clear by the context of the verses that surround it as well.
 
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rakovsky

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Later in the letter after the part you quoted the Rambam denies the association with the Messiah and Isaiah 53.
I don't think so, since he just made that connection, but am OK with being proven wrong.

He also writes, ‘If he did not succeed to this extent or he was killed, then we know that he is certainly not the one promised by the Torah…’
His writings in the Mishnah Torah contradict what is written in the letter to Yemen
In letter to Yemen, I don't think he said that Messiah gets killed. He just says that Isaiah 53 is about Messiah. I have seen rabbinical and Muslim anti-Christian apologist websites claim that in Isaiah 53 Servant doesn't get killed (obviously they are wrong). Conceivably, Maimonides could have thought the same way. Or else he could have changed his mind between the two writings.

You need a better translation for Isaiah 52.
It does not say ‘sprinkles’ many nations. The correct translation would be more surprised or astonished or startled.
This is made clear by the context of the verses that surround it as well.

Based on your two responses above, I can foresee that we won't get anywhere. Only a person with a very open mind on the topic will be able to accept the other POV, because we are dealing with poetry, and poetry has an open ended aspect.

Look how totally you ruled out Is 52 saying "sprinkles". (You are wrong BTW). Even once/if I prove that you are wrong on that, you will still have the same intense hardness on the issue. And "sprinkles" v "shaking" is one of the easiest things to prove.

Therefore, the only constructive discussion I foresee is the more important one: Where do we look for truth in Religion?
Do you think Jews should follow Torah rituals?
 
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peepnklown

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I don't think so, since he just made that connection, but am OK with being proven wrong.


Let me ask you this. Does the letter to Yemen talk about Jesus and if so, what does it say about Jesus?

If you want to know his thoughts on the Jewish Messiah you should read the Mishnah Torah but, maybe you do not because his thoughts on the Jewish Messiah invalidate Jesus. I quoted the Mishnah Torah for you, ‘If he did not succeed to this extent or he was killed, then we know that he is certainly not the one promised by the Torah…’ Rambam (Maimonides) supports my side.

I also find it odd that you say I am wrong about the translation of the Hebrew in Isaiah 52, yet your buddy Rambam (Maimonides) supports my translation. In the letter to Yemen, ‘They will neither defame nor calumniate him, for the miracles he will perform will frighten them into complete silence. Isaiah refers to the submission of the kings to him in the verse: Kings shall be silenced because of him [Isa. 52:15]’
He doesn’t mention this ‘sprinkles’ you speak of nor does the context he writes about support ‘sprinkles.’
He supports the translation of astonished and startled into silence.

This is the problem when you don’t dig deeper.
It’s not about not having an open mind. Just because I do not agree with you doesn’t mean I don’t have an open mind.
The evidence supports my side. It’s plain and simple. You need more time.


I don’t think we can find truth in religion especially when most of the tales from these religious books have no originality. They all ‘borrow’ from more ancient religious tales. They knew nothing of the natural world…for example; they thought natural weather events were the acts of God or gods.
I don’t think the Jews need to follow the rituals in the Torah. Jews might as well follow Hillel, ‘What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah…’
 
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rakovsky

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Let me ask you this. Does the letter to Yemen talk about Jesus and if so, what does it say about Jesus?

If you want to know his thoughts on the Jewish Messiah you should read the Mishnah Torah but, maybe you do not because his thoughts on the Jewish Messiah invalidate Jesus. I quoted the Mishnah Torah for you, ‘If he did not succeed to this extent or he was killed, then we know that he is certainly not the one promised by the Torah…’ Rambam (Maimonides) supports my side.

I also find it odd that you say I am wrong about the translation of the Hebrew in Isaiah 52, yet your buddy Rambam (Maimonides) supports my translation. In the letter to Yemen, ‘They will neither defame nor calumniate him, for the miracles he will perform will frighten them into complete silence. Isaiah refers to the submission of the kings to him in the verse: Kings shall be silenced because of him [Isa. 52:15]’
He doesn’t mention this ‘sprinkles’ you speak of nor does the context he writes about support ‘sprinkles.’
He supports the translation of astonished and startled into silence.

This is the problem when you don’t dig deeper.
It’s not about not having an open mind. Just because I do not agree with you doesn’t mean I don’t have an open mind.
The evidence supports my side. It’s plain and simple. You need more time.
The evidence supports your side in the same way that the NT supports the JW side about the Trinity or the NT supports RC belief in Papal Infallibility or the NT teaches Mormonism. But good luck persuading JWs, LDS, and RCs otherwise. They are all convinced, so why bother, unless they are open minded.

Sure, I don't expect Maimonides to think Messiah was Jesus.
And Maimonides didn't quote word by word the whole verse that says sprinkles.

I would expect you would realize that. But I think you are totally pre-convinced that your answer is correct before you even went to cite Maimonides verse where he doesn't mention "sprinkled" or "astonished".

ISAIAH 52: "As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him"
MAIMONIDES:
" ‘They will neither defame nor calumniate him, for the miracles he will perform will frighten them into complete silence. Isaiah refers to the submission of the kings to him in the verse: Kings shall be silenced because of him [Isa. 52:15]’"​
He never quotes the verse on sprinkling, so we can't tell here how he reads it.
And there are much easier ways to show what this word means. But like I said, it only matters if the person is open minded and hasn't reached a full conclusion. Once something 100% decided about something like this, discussion becomes pointless, unless someone wants to score debate points. At least for me at this moment it's not productive.

Also, maybe you feel more comfortable thinking you are open-minded. You have looked at basic arguments, and concluded that your side is definitely right and that you are an intelligent person. So at this point it's case closed. There is not much more point in you and I discussing it except to waste time or burn steam.

I don’t think we can find truth in religion especially when most of the tales from these religious books have no originality. They all ‘borrow’ from more ancient religious tales. They knew nothing of the natural world…for example; they thought natural weather events were the acts of God or gods.
I don’t think the Jews need to follow the rituals in the Torah. Jews might as well follow Hillel, ‘What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah…’
OK. What you are saying I understand, that religion in the ancient tales misconstrue nature. Yet since they attempted to find the deep Truths, can one still find Truth in them in some ways?
For example, you immediately followed your statement up by saying that Jews might as well follow a certain quoted teaching of a famous rabbi.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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I'm Isaiah 53ed out at this point. I don't think I can add anything to any discussion that hasn't been beaten to death in the past few threads.

Or millennia...
 
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LoAmmi

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Jews might as well follow Hillel, ‘What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah…’
Hillel never would have supported abandoning the Torah in favor of simply not doing what was hateful to others.
 
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rakovsky

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Or millennia...
Dead Sea Scrolls proved something right about Christian version of Is 53 though- use of the word "light".
In Dead Sea Scrolls and in 1900+ year old Christian version, after getting cut off, Servant "sees light".
 
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