Why do you believe in the trinity when God and his word is simple

stuart lawrence · Feb 19, 2016

Der Alter said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Matthew 28:18 after the resurrection? During His earthly ministry Jesus did not have some powers/authority, e.g. the day and hour of His return, but after His resurrection "all authority in heaven and earth" was given to Him. See Philippians 2:6-11. Especially Philippians 2:9.

The authority Jesus had was given to him, as was his power. Before the resuurection his kingdom did not stretch to the whole earth, for the old covenant only concerned the Jews.
Christ lived and walked in the power of the holy spirit Luke 4:1&14

He was sent of the father and received his power and authority from him, for the father put everything under his feet. 1cor15:27

stuart lawrence · Feb 19, 2016

Its amazing it truly is. Peter and john didn't know four languages, nor did they learn to fly! In all likelihood they couldn't read or write being poor fishermen. They couldn't read, or therefor have at their disposal, concordances, lexicons, or scholars and theologians to learn from, that people turn to today. And yet, how mightily they were used to spread the Gospel message.
It seems God works via different routes today, as some see it anyway!!

Lulav · Feb 19, 2016

Please remember to address the Post and not the Poster

redleghunter · Feb 19, 2016

There is a website http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/articles/About.html

Response:

First what are the theological credentials of the person who runs that site? What peer reviews were conducted on the site owners theological arguments?

Second, his research is incomplete:

Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son

Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.
Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.
Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.
Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.
Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.
2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.
Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.
Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.
Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.
Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.
Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.
Psalm 89:27 – I will make him the first-born, the highest (“elyon” which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 – Jesus is this first-born king.
Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.
Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.
Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.
Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means "God is with us" - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.
Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.
Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.
Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.
Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.
Isaiah 44:6 - the Lord God is the first and the last - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 - Jesus is the first and the last.
Isaiah 45:19 - I, the Lord God, did not speak in secret - John 18:20 - Jesus said "I have said nothing secretly."
Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus' name every knee should bow and tongue confess.
Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.
Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.
Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.
Ezek. 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9 - God's glorious appearance - Rev. 1:13-16 - Jesus' glorious appearance.
Ezek. 34:11-31 - God the Father is the shepherd of the flock - John 10:7-29 - Jesus is the shepherd of the flock.
Ezek. 34:16 - God seeks to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 - Jesus seeks to save that which was lost.
Ezek. 34:17 - God judges between cattle, rams and goats - Matt. 25:32 - Jesus judges and separates the goats from the sheep.
Ezek. 43:2 - God's voice was like a noise of many waters - Rev. 1:15 - Jesus' voice was like the sound of many waters.
Dan. 2:47 - the Lord is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords - Rev. 17:14 - Jesus the Lamb is the Lord of Lords.

Jesus Christ's Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God

John 1:1 - John writes, "the Word was God." This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ's divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah's bible, the passage was changed to "Word was a god." This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).
John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).
John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 - the Greek word for "only-begotten" is "monogenes" which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.
John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.
John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.
John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.
Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.
Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.
Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.
Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.
Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.
Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.
Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.
Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.
1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.
Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.
Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.
Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation. The Greek word for "first-born" is "prototokos" which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).
Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.
Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.
Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.
Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.
Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.
Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.
Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.
Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever."
Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." "Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee."
Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." "And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work."
Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.
2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20 - "that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."
Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.
Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." See Isa. 44:6.
Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.

Jesus Christ Claims to be God

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.
Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."
Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.
Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.
Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.
Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."
Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.
Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.
Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.
Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.
Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.
Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.
John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.
John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.
John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."
John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.
John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."
John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.
John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God.
John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.
John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.
John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."
John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.
John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.
John 13:13 - Jesus says, "You call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM."
John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.
John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.
John 16:28 - Jesus says that "He came from the Father and has come into the world."
John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.
John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."
Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.
Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.
Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Jesus' Miracles Testify that He is God

Matt. 1:23; Mark 1:27,35 - Jesus was conceived in the virginal womb of the Blessed Mother.
Matt. 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; John 1:32 - God's Spirit descends upon Jesus and the Father declares Jesus to be His Son.
Matt. 4:23-24; 9:35;15:30; Mark 1:34; 3:10; 6:5; Luke 4:40; 7:10; 13:13; 14:4; John 4:52 - Jesus miraculously cures illness and disease.
Matt. 7:35 - Jesus cures a deaf person with a speech impediment.
Matt. 8:3; Mark 1:41; Luke 5:13; 17:14 - Jesus cures leprosy.
Matt. 9:21-22; Mark 5:27-34; Luke 8:44 - the hem of Jesus' cloak cures the woman with the hemorrhage. See also Matt. 14:36.
Matt. 8:13; 9:7; Mark 2:9; Luke 5:25 - Jesus cures those who are paralyzed.
Matt. 8:15; Mark 1:31; Luke 4:39 - Jesus cures Peter's mother-in-law's fever.
Matt. 8:26; Mark 4:39; Luke 8:24 - Jesus calms the storm. Even the wind and sea obey Him.
Matt. 8:32; 9:33; 12:22; 15:28; 17:18; Mark 1:26,34; 3:11; 5:13; 7:30; 9:26; Luke 4:35,41; 8:33; 9:42; 11:14 - Jesus has power over demons.
Matt. 9:4; 12:25; Luke 6:8; 11:17 - Jesus knows people's thoughts.
Matt. 9:25; Mark 5:24; John 11:44 - Jesus raises people from the dead.
Matt. 9:30; 12:22; 20:34; 21:14; Mark 8:25; 10:52; Luke 7:21; 18:42; John 9:11 - Jesus cures the blind.
Matt. 12:13; Mark 3:5; Luke 6:10 - Jesus cures the man with the withered hand.
Matt. 14:19-20; 5:36-37; Mark 6:41-42; 8:7-8; Luke 9:16-17; John 6:11 - Jesus multiplies the loaves and fish and feeds the crowd of thousands.
Matt. 14:26; Mark 6:48; John 6:19 - Jesus walks on water.
Matt. 15:21; 16:21; 17:9,22; 20:18-19; 26:2; Mark 10:33-34; Luke 9:44; 17:25; 18:32-34 - Jesus predicts His passion.
Matt. 17:2; Mark 9:2; Luke 9:29 - Jesus is transfigured in glory.
Matt. 17:27 - Jesus miraculously has a shekel appear in the mouth of a fish.
Matt. 21:2-3; Mark 11:2; Luke 19:30 - Jesus predicts that a colt would be available for Him.
Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14,20 - Jesus curses the fig tree and it withers.
Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:2; Luke 21:32 - Jesus predicts the fall of Jerusalem which occurred in 70 A.D.
Matt. 26:21-25; Mark 14:18-20; Luke 22:21; John 13:21,26 - Jesus predicts Judas' betrayal.
Matt. 26:34; Mark 14:30; Luke 22:34; John 13:38 - Jesus predicts Peter's denial.
Matt. 27:51-54; Mark 15:38-39 - supernatural events occur at Jesus' death.
Matt. 28:9; Mark 16:9,12,14; Luke 7:14-15; 8:54-55; 24:5,31,36; John 20:14,19,26; 21:1-14 - Jesus rises from the dead.
Mark 14:13; Luke 22:10 - Jesus predicts that a man carrying a jug of water will show them the furnished room for the Passover.
Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51 - Jesus ascends into heaven.
Luke 2:13-14 - the angels praise Jesus' birth.
Luke 5:7; John 21:6 - Jesus directs the miraculous catch of fish.
Luke 24:31 - Jesus has the ability to vanish out of sight.
John 2:9 - Jesus changes water into wine.
John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred in Rome around 67 A.D.
John 20:19,26 - Jesus has the ability to appear even when the doors are locked.

Jesus Christ is Worshiped

Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.
Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.
Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.
Matt. 28:9 - Jesus' disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 28:17 - Jesus' disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.
Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.
Luke 1:11 - Mary accepts Elizabeth's declaration "the Mother of my Lord" = the Mother of my God (Elizabeth used the word "Adonai" which means "Lord God").
Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.
John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him.
John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou").

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html#tradition-I

Der Alte · Feb 19, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
The authority Jesus had was given to him, as was his power. Before the resuurection his kingdom did not stretch to the whole earth, for the old covenant only concerned the Jews.
Christ lived and walked in the power of the holy spirit Luke 4:1&14

Have you read Philippians 2:6-11? Before He came down from heaven Jesus "existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God as 'something to be grasped,' [one word in Greek and a noun not a verb as I showed from a noted Greek scholar which you blew off because you evidently are the be all, end all authority on the Bible,] "but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature. He humbled [emptied] himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death — even death on a cross!" This was Jesus during His earthly ministry! "As a result God exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name," After His exaltation is where all authority in heaven and earth was given to Jesus.

He was sent of the father and received his power and authority from him, for the father put everything under his feet. 1cor15:27

Correct after the events in Philippians 2:6-11, see above.

Der Alte · Feb 19, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Its amazing it truly is. Peter and john didn't know four languages, nor did they learn to fly! In all likelihood they couldn't read or write being poor fishermen. They couldn't read, or therefor have at their disposal, concordances, lexicons, or scholars and theologians to learn from, that people turn to today. And yet, how mightily they were used to spread the Gospel message.
It seems God works via different routes today, as some see it anyway!!

Amazing my point flew right over your head. Well since you have the correct interpretation of the Bible without any help from any scholars or lexicons lets continue this discussion in the language Peter and John used. And perhaps you could parse the first verb? Οὐ γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν, ἀδελφοί, τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο, ἵνα μὴ ἦτε παρ' ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι, ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ γέγονεν ἄχρις οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ, φάσκοντες εἶναι σοφοὶ ἐμωράνθησαν, ἄφετε αὐτούς· τυφλοί εἰσιν ὁδηγοί τυφλῶν· τυφλὸς δὲ τυφλὸν ἐὰν ὁδηγῇ, ἀμφότεροι εἰς βόθυνον πεσοῦνται.

stuart lawrence · Feb 19, 2016

Der Alter said:
Have you read Philippians 2:6-11? Before He came down from heaven Jesus "existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God as 'something to be grasped,' [one word in Greek and a noun not a verb as I showed from a noted Greek scholar which you blew off because you evidently are the be all, end all authority on the Bible,] "but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature. He humbled [emptied] himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death — even death on a cross!" This was Jesus during His earthly ministry! "As a result God exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name," After His exaltation is where all authority in heaven and earth was given to Jesus.

Correct after the events in Philippians 2:6-11, see above.

What I can see is you cannot obviously disprove the fact Jesus cannot be called the one true God as he forgave sins. Therefore, you deflect onto something else. And so it goes on.

What was the bait used by satan to get eve to eat the apple?
If she ate it she would be like/as God( gen3:5)

Jesus didn't take the bait, he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped( john 14:28) what was the result?
God exalted him to the highest place
And gave him the name that I above every name
That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth
And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord
To the GLORY of GOD THE FATHER

stuart lawrence · Feb 19, 2016

Der Alter said:
Amazing my point flew right over your head. Well since you have the correct interpretation of the Bible without any help from any scholars or lexicons lets continue this discussion in the language Peter and John used. And perhaps you could parse the first verb? Οὐ γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν, ἀδελφοί, τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο, ἵνα μὴ ἦτε παρ' ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι, ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ γέγονεν ἄχρις οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ, φάσκοντες εἶναι σοφοὶ ἐμωράνθησαν, ἄφετε αὐτούς· τυφλοί εἰσιν ὁδηγοί τυφλῶν· τυφλὸς δὲ τυφλὸν ἐὰν ὁδηγῇ, ἀμφότεροι εἰς βόθυνον πεσοῦνται.

You must be getting desperate. I assume you believe you understand the correct translation that the scholars who interpreted the KJV and NIV for instance did not understand. So your academic knowledge I greater than there's? Hmmm

Why don't you put rom 6:14 up in the greek and explain to me the meaning of the verse, why sin shall not be a persons master for they are not under law but under grace. Should be simple for you as you know four different languages

stuart lawrence · Feb 19, 2016

I have to say, that if someone insists you can only truly understand spiritual truth contained in the bible if you understand the Greek, it is tragic on an a monumental scale. The holy spirit leads into truth, and he does not rely on the grammatical structure of words, nor is he reliant on a person reading the greek to understand spiritual truth.
Such an attitude as you need to understand the greek to fully grasp truth, leaves the individual bereft of understanding the meat of the all important message, for they don't rely on the holy spirit to lead them into truth, and he I the only one who can reveal spiritual truth, according to Jesus

stuart lawrence · Feb 19, 2016

Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him
Proverbs26:12

klutedavid · Feb 19, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
What I can see is you cannot obviously disprove the fact Jesus cannot be called the one true God as he forgave sins. Therefore, you deflect onto something else. And so it goes on.

What was the bait used by satan to get eve to eat the apple?
If she ate it she would be like/as God( gen3:5)

Jesus didn't take the bait, he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped( john 14:28) what was the result?
God exalted him to the highest place
And gave him the name that I above every name
That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth
And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord
To the GLORY of GOD THE FATHER

Hello Stuart.

You said the following.

Jesus didn't take the bait, he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped( john 14:28)

You can also translate that verse as, 'He did not consider equality with God something to be held onto' ( john 14:28)

You would be aware from the scripture, that Jesus Christ had no earthly father. Jesus was not the genetic offspring
of Mary, Mary was in fact only the surrogate mother of Jesus. Jesus was from above and certainly was not a
descendant of Adam. Jesus was the antithesis of Adam in every way, Adam was from below, Jesus was from above.
Adam was imperfect and carnal, Jesus was perfect and spiritual. Jesus took on a human form, but Jesus was not a man
in the sense that we would ever comprehend. This is what the scripture tells us Stuart.

You were created by and through Jesus, and you were also created solely for Jesus.

Jesus was worshipped as an infant and rightly so, for Jesus was in fact the very GOD (YHWH), who is seen and
heard in the Old Testament. You would also be well aware that God is invisible to humanity, no one has ever
seen, heard or known God, according to the Gospel of John. Where you have an issue, is that God was seen, heard
and known, in the Old Testament. The patriarchs and the prophets saw Jesus, heard Jesus, and knew Jesus, because
Jesus was their creator. The visions of the prophets are the visions of this Creator.

Before Abraham, Jesus existed, before the creation, Jesus existed, in fact, Jesus is eternal and equal to the Father.
We never knew there was a Father until Jesus introduced us to the Father, we had only ever known the one God
in the Old Testament, and that God was none other than Jesus Christ. That is why the visions of the prophets see
one like a man sitting on the throne in heaven.

If you think it through, Jesus died for His own creation, the Father did not lay His life down for you.

You seriously need to do the research on the deity of the Christ.

stuart lawrence · Feb 19, 2016

klutedavid said:
Hello Stuart.

You said the following.

You can also translate that verse as, 'He did not consider equality with God something to be held onto' ( john 14:28)

You would be aware from the scripture, that Jesus Christ had no earthly father. Jesus was not the genetic offspring
of Mary, Mary was in fact only the surrogate mother of Jesus. Jesus was from above and certainly was not a
descendant of Adam. Jesus was the antithesis of Adam in every way, Adam was from below, Jesus was from above.
Adam was imperfect and carnal, Jesus was perfect and spiritual. Jesus took on a human form, but Jesus was not a man
in the sense that we would ever comprehend. This is what the scripture tells us Stuart.

You were created by and through Jesus, and you were also created solely for Jesus.

Jesus was worshipped as an infant and rightly so, for Jesus was in fact the very GOD (YHWH), who is seen and
heard in the Old Testament. You would also be well aware that God is invisible to humanity, no one has ever
seen, heard or known God, according to the Gospel of John. Where you have an issue, is that God was seen, heard
and known, in the Old Testament. The patriarchs and the prophets saw Jesus, heard Jesus, and knew Jesus, because
Jesus was their creator. The visions of the prophets are the visions of this Creator.

Before Abraham, Jesus existed, before the creation, Jesus existed, in fact, Jesus is eternal and equal to the Father.
We never knew there was a Father until Jesus introduced us to the Father, we had only ever known the one God
in the Old Testament, and that God was none other than Jesus Christ. That is why the visions of the prophets see
one like a man sitting on the throne in heaven.

If you think it through, Jesus died for His own creation, the Father did not lay His life down for you.

You seriously need to do the research on the deity of the Christ.

Jesus said the father was the only TRUE God and greater than he.
Research Tha contradicts the plain words of Christ is errant research.
Please note, Jesus said the father was the only TRUE( TRUE) God for a reason. In biblical times many were referred to as Gods( psalms 82:6 & 1 cor8:5)
You need to do research!!

klutedavid · Feb 19, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Jesus said the father was the only TRUE God and greater than he.
Research Tha contradicts the plain words of Christ is errant research.
Please note, Jesus said the father was the only TRUE( TRUE) God for a reason. In biblical times many were referred to as Gods( psalms 82:6 & 1 cor8:5)
You need to do research!!

Hello Stuart.

John 5
37 And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor
seen His form.

So who is the visible God and the God who talks in the Old Testament?

Here is the one and only God in a vision that Ezekiel was given.

Ezekiel 1
26 Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, deep blue
in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man.
27 Then I noticed from the appearance of His loins and upward something like glowing metal that looked
like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His loins and downward I saw something like fire;
and there was a radiance around Him. 28 As the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so
was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of God.

Remember no one has seen or heard God.

If you are unsure of who the man above is, then look no further than the book of Revelations.

Revelations 1
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;
13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and
girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and
His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a
furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of
His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

Your meant to discover all this yourself, the scripture is the revelation of the Christ. The scripture is not the
revelation of the Father.

stuart lawrence · Feb 19, 2016

klutedavid said:
Hello Stuart.

John 5
37 And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor
seen His form.

So who is the visible God and the God who talks in the Old Testament?

Here is the one and only God in a vision that Ezekiel was given.

Ezekiel 1
26 Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, deep blue
in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man.
27 Then I noticed from the appearance of His loins and upward something like glowing metal that looked
like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His loins and downward I saw something like fire;
and there was a radiance around Him. 28 As the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so
was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of God.

Remember no one has seen or heard God.

If you are unsure of who the man above is, then look no further than the book of Revelations.

Revelations 1
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;
13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and
girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and
His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a
furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of
His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

Your meant to discover all this yourself, the scripture is the revelation of the Christ. The scripture is not the
revelation of the Father.

Simply exegesis of the written word to try and overturn the plain words of Christ.
You get a lot of this on these sites. All that research/ studying to no avail

Der Alte · Feb 19, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
You must be getting desperate. I assume you believe you understand the correct translation that the scholars who interpreted the KJV and NIV for instance did not understand. So your academic knowledge I greater than there's? Hmmm

I have no problem with the NIV, as a matter of fact one of the NIV translators, Dr. Roger Omanson, was one of my Greek professors. But as for the KJV there are more than 800 words in the KJV which have changed meaning or dropped out of the language altogether, and that is why we have modern versions.

Why don't you put rom 6:14 up in the greek and explain to me the meaning of the verse, why sin shall not be a persons master for they are not under law but under grace. Should be simple for you as you know four different languages

I already have scripture posted which you apparently are unable to read. So you do have to rely on scholars, the scholars who translated whichever version you prefer.

stuart lawrence · Feb 19, 2016

Der Alter said:
I have no problem with the NIV, as a matter of fact one of the NIV translators, Dr. Roger Omanson, was one of my Greek professors. But as for the KJV there are more than 800 words in the KJV which have changed meaning or dropped out of the language altogether, and that is why we have modern versions.

I already have scripture posted which you apparently are unable to read. So you do have to rely on scholars, the scholars who translated whichever version you prefer.

I don't view it as you do. I totally rely on the holy spirit to lead me into truth as I read the bible. Better to trust him than an ability to read the Greek. I learnt of grace through reading the living bible, hardly for purists. But the spirit works with willing hearts, and those who don't rely on their own ability to learn

stuart lawrence · Feb 19, 2016

Der Alter said:
I have no problem with the NIV, as a matter of fact one of the NIV translators, Dr. Roger Omanson, was one of my Greek professors. But as for the KJV there are more than 800 words in the KJV which have changed meaning or dropped out of the language altogether, and that is why we have modern versions.

I already have scripture posted which you apparently are unable to read. So you do have to rely on scholars, the scholars who translated whichever version you prefer.

When you can explain grace to me, and why sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace I will believe you have value in reading the Greek, but if you cannot, you simply prove my point

stuart lawrence · Feb 19, 2016

Der Alter said:
I have no problem with the NIV, as a matter of fact one of the NIV translators, Dr. Roger Omanson, was one of my Greek professors. But as for the KJV there are more than 800 words in the KJV which have changed meaning or dropped out of the language altogether, and that is why we have modern versions.

I already have scripture posted which you apparently are unable to read. So you do have to rely on scholars, the scholars who translated whichever version you prefer.

You see, you cannot tell me why sinfull passions are aroused by the law in those who live under it can you( rom7:5)
Neither can you tell me why sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace( rom6:14)
So knowing four languages and understanding the greek isn't helping you understand the core of the message of victory over sin by grace is it. That is what the flock need to desperatley know, not your extra biblical demands that contradict the plain words of Christ. The natural mind will not lead anyone to understand the heart of the Gospel message the literal letter contains.
Any minister that believes they can wonderfully explain an equal trinity but cannot preach grace with understanding I shortchanging their flock to put it mildly

Der Alte · Feb 19, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
I don't view it as you do. I totally rely on the holy spirit to lead me into truth as I read the bible. Better to trust him than an ability to read the Greek. I learnt of grace through reading the living bible, hardly for purists. But the spirit works with willing hearts, and those who don't rely on their own ability to learn

There are a lot of folks around who also claim to totally "rely on the holy spirit to lead [them] into truth as [they] read the bible" JW, SDA, WWCG, OP, UPCI, UU, INC and many others, all claiming, as you do, that the Holy Spirit guides them in all truth. All different and all claiming that their group is right and all the others are wrong. Which one should the prudent person believe, the one that yells the loudest? Paul didn't say sit on your backside and wait for the Holy Spirit to lead you into truth he said "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Der Alte · Feb 19, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
When you can explain grace to me, and why sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace I will believe you have value in reading the Greek, but if you cannot, you simply prove my point

You explain it to me then I will show you how you are wrong. You already have challenges in this thread that you are unable to respond to.

Why do you believe in the trinity when God and his word is simple

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