"Trinity"

Status
Not open for further replies.

Edmond Smith

Well-Known Member
Jan 5, 2016
514
88
59
United States
✟14,316.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
First, let me offer this: I teach 'only' that Christ is exactly who He said that He is: The Son of The Living God. (Period). It is you that are teaching something that the Bible never teaches us to begin with: Christ is God. You say it is so. But the Bible does not. You assume through some vague scripture that you can offer proof that the Bible does teach that Christ is God. But in truth, those scripture must be twisted and bent in order to 'make' them say what you choose to believe. They have 'never' shown me that Christ is God. In truth, what they teach is utterly contrary to the concept. Christ is exactly who He stated He is: The Son of God.

You offer this as them being 'one' means the 'same'. It doesn't.

We have the words of Christ Himself that His greatest 'wish' would be for 'us' to be one with both Himself and the Father: 'as they are one'.

So it obviously doesn't mean the 'same' when Christ speaks of the 'oneness' between Himself and the Father.

Remember, we are to take 'all' scripture into account in order to find the 'truth'. And the 'truth' is that we are capable of experiencing the same 'oneness' with God as The Son. While He may well always retain a 'higher place' in God's Kingdom, so far as 'oneness' is concerned, we 'too' can become 'one' with both Christ and His Father: God. Does that mean that there are 'thousands' or 'millions' of persons that make up 'one God'?

John 17:

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Now, how can you read these words and not realize what the 'oneness' is that Christ spoke of when He stated that He and the Father are 'one'? It does not mean they are the same. It means that there is 'something' that is the same about them both. That they are 'one' in this sameness, but not 'one' as in 'the same'.

I would offer that the 'oneness' spoken of is the principle of 'love'. that both Father and Son are 'one' in the love that they share with each other and to us. And that we too can become are part of this EXACT 'oneness' that they share when we love them and each other as they love each other and us. But we will all still be separate entities. What makes us 'one' is not a melding together in one physical body. But we become 'one' when we share the 'same love' shared by Father and Son.

You needn't fear that my lack of adherence to 'trinity' has in any way, shape or form left me lacking in the least. I know the relationship that I share with God and His Son through the Holy Spirit and have never once been led to accept or believe in a 'trinity'. God is God. His Son is His Son. This is what I have been led to believe and it is what I believe. Believe to the extent that I personally know both Father and Son. I know of 'no trinity' except in the imaginings of men.

I certainly do not believe that 'the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit make up God.

There is only one God and There are three different personas, for lack of a better word,
God, the father ; Jesus, the Son; and the Holy Spirit. They all are one, God the father, God the Christ and God the Holy Spirit.
All three in one.
Your statement above shows that you don't have a full grasp of the nature of God. The three don't make up God, the three are God, just different personas, the father, the savior and the comforter.

And Jesus plainly talks about it here.

[Jesus speaking to His disciples] "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." ... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him." (John 14:16-17, 23)

Notice the plural...Our, We


There is only one God and He is the Father of Christ. He is our God and THE God of Christ as well. That's what the Bible says and that's what has been revealed to 'me'.

If you have a new revelation from God, then it is your duty to write it down. But there's a problem there. God's word says nothing was to be added or taken from His Word. So, be careful when you make a statement of revelation as you did here.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But if what you offer concerning 'the Son of God' making Christ God, that means that we too are God. Those of us that are 'sons of God'.

Have you done the following:

Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son

Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.
Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.
Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.
Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.
Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.
2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.
Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.
Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.
Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.
Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.
Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.
Psalm 89:27 – I will make him the first-born, the highest (“elyon” which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 – Jesus is this first-born king.
Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.
Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.
Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.
Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means "God is with us" - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.
Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.
Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.
Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.
Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.
Isaiah 44:6 - the Lord God is the first and the last - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 - Jesus is the first and the last.
Isaiah 45:19 - I, the Lord God, did not speak in secret - John 18:20 - Jesus said "I have said nothing secretly."
Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus' name every knee should bow and tongue confess.
Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.
Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.
Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.
Ezek. 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9 - God's glorious appearance - Rev. 1:13-16 - Jesus' glorious appearance.
Ezek. 34:11-31 - God the Father is the shepherd of the flock - John 10:7-29 - Jesus is the shepherd of the flock.
Ezek. 34:16 - God seeks to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 - Jesus seeks to save that which was lost.
Ezek. 34:17 - God judges between cattle, rams and goats - Matt. 25:32 - Jesus judges and separates the goats from the sheep.
Ezek. 43:2 - God's voice was like a noise of many waters - Rev. 1:15 - Jesus' voice was like the sound of many waters.
Dan. 2:47 - the Lord is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords - Rev. 17:14 - Jesus the Lamb is the Lord of Lords.

Jesus Christ's Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God

John 1:1 - John writes, "the Word was God." This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ's divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah's bible, the passage was changed to "Word was a god." This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).
John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).
John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 - the Greek word for "only-begotten" is "monogenes" which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.
John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.
John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.
John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.
Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.
Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.
Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.
Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.
Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.
Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.
Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.
Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.
1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.
Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.
Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.
Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation. The Greek word for "first-born" is "prototokos" which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).
Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.
Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.
Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.
Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.
Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.
Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.
Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.
Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever."
Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." "Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee."
Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." "And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work."
Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.
2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20 - "that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."
Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.
Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." See Isa. 44:6.
Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.

Jesus Christ Claims to be God

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.
Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."
Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.
Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.
Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.
Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."
Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.
Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.
Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.
Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.
Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.
Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.
John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.
John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.
John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."
John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.
John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."
John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.
John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God.
John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.
John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.
John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."
John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.
John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.
John 13:13 - Jesus says, "You call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM."
John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.
John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.
John 16:28 - Jesus says that "He came from the Father and has come into the world."
John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.
John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."
Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.
Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.
Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Jesus' Miracles Testify that He is God

Matt. 1:23; Mark 1:27,35 - Jesus was conceived in the virginal womb of the Blessed Mother.

Matt. 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; John 1:32 - God's Spirit descends upon Jesus and the Father declares Jesus to be His Son.
Matt. 4:23-24; 9:35;15:30; Mark 1:34; 3:10; 6:5; Luke 4:40; 7:10; 13:13; 14:4; John 4:52 - Jesus miraculously cures illness and disease.
Matt. 7:35 - Jesus cures a deaf person with a speech impediment.
Matt. 8:3; Mark 1:41; Luke 5:13; 17:14 - Jesus cures leprosy.
Matt. 9:21-22; Mark 5:27-34; Luke 8:44 - the hem of Jesus' cloak cures the woman with the hemorrhage. See also Matt. 14:36.
Matt. 8:13; 9:7; Mark 2:9; Luke 5:25 - Jesus cures those who are paralyzed.
Matt. 8:15; Mark 1:31; Luke 4:39 - Jesus cures Peter's mother-in-law's fever.
Matt. 8:26; Mark 4:39; Luke 8:24 - Jesus calms the storm. Even the wind and sea obey Him.
Matt. 8:32; 9:33; 12:22; 15:28; 17:18; Mark 1:26,34; 3:11; 5:13; 7:30; 9:26; Luke 4:35,41; 8:33; 9:42; 11:14 - Jesus has power over demons.
Matt. 9:4; 12:25; Luke 6:8; 11:17 - Jesus knows people's thoughts.
Matt. 9:25; Mark 5:24; John 11:44 - Jesus raises people from the dead.
Matt. 9:30; 12:22; 20:34; 21:14; Mark 8:25; 10:52; Luke 7:21; 18:42; John 9:11 - Jesus cures the blind.
Matt. 12:13; Mark 3:5; Luke 6:10 - Jesus cures the man with the withered hand.
Matt. 14:19-20; 5:36-37; Mark 6:41-42; 8:7-8; Luke 9:16-17; John 6:11 - Jesus multiplies the loaves and fish and feeds the crowd of thousands.
Matt. 14:26; Mark 6:48; John 6:19 - Jesus walks on water.
Matt. 15:21; 16:21; 17:9,22; 20:18-19; 26:2; Mark 10:33-34; Luke 9:44; 17:25; 18:32-34 - Jesus predicts His passion.
Matt. 17:2; Mark 9:2; Luke 9:29 - Jesus is transfigured in glory.
Matt. 17:27 - Jesus miraculously has a shekel appear in the mouth of a fish.
Matt. 21:2-3; Mark 11:2; Luke 19:30 - Jesus predicts that a colt would be available for Him.
Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14,20 - Jesus curses the fig tree and it withers.
Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:2; Luke 21:32 - Jesus predicts the fall of Jerusalem which occurred in 70 A.D.
Matt. 26:21-25; Mark 14:18-20; Luke 22:21; John 13:21,26 - Jesus predicts Judas' betrayal.
Matt. 26:34; Mark 14:30; Luke 22:34; John 13:38 - Jesus predicts Peter's denial.
Matt. 27:51-54; Mark 15:38-39 - supernatural events occur at Jesus' death.
Matt. 28:9; Mark 16:9,12,14; Luke 7:14-15; 8:54-55; 24:5,31,36; John 20:14,19,26; 21:1-14 - Jesus rises from the dead.
Mark 14:13; Luke 22:10 - Jesus predicts that a man carrying a jug of water will show them the furnished room for the Passover.
Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51 - Jesus ascends into heaven.
Luke 2:13-14 - the angels praise Jesus' birth.
Luke 5:7; John 21:6 - Jesus directs the miraculous catch of fish.
Luke 24:31 - Jesus has the ability to vanish out of sight.
John 2:9 - Jesus changes water into wine.
John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred in Rome around 67 A.D.
John 20:19,26 - Jesus has the ability to appear even when the doors are locked.

Jesus Christ is Worshiped

Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.
Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.
Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.
Matt. 28:9 - Jesus' disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 28:17 - Jesus' disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.
Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.
Luke 1:11 - Mary accepts Elizabeth's declaration "the Mother of my Lord" = the Mother of my God (Elizabeth used the word "Adonai" which means "Lord God").
Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.
John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him.
John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou").

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html#tradition-I
 
Upvote 0

SteveCaruso

Translator
May 17, 2010
812
555
✟54,511.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.

Common myth about the Aramaic language, actually, originally spread by a man named Joachim Jeremias.

"Abba" does not mean "daddy." It simply means "father" and is used in all contexts from formal to informal.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Common myth about the Aramaic language, actually, originally spread by a man named Joachim Jeremias.

"Abba" does not mean "daddy." It simply means "father" and is used in all contexts from formal to informal.

Thanks for that. I see your credentials in the tagline. Look forward to hearing more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Uncle Siggy
Upvote 0

SteveCaruso

Translator
May 17, 2010
812
555
✟54,511.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Thanks for that. I see your credentials in the tagline. Look forward to hearing more.

No problem. :)

Jeremias' argument was simply that "Abba" was lallwort ("child babble"), much like "mama" or "dada" in English. At the time he made this assertion, there simply wasn't as comprehensive an understanding about language acquisition among children, and his students and followers were quick to spread this conjecture as fact because it made a good story (some say good "pulpit fiction"; like the "eye of the needle" being a certain gate or rock formation in Jerusalem – which is it not :) ).

It wasn't until he was challenged (most strongly by James Barr's "Abba isn't Daddy," Journal of Theological Studies 39, no. 1 [1988]: 28-47) that he retracted his statement and retreated from it completely.

However, the story stuck. And many a sermon has been crafted around it erroneously. :)
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No problem. :)

Jeremias' argument was simply that "Abba" was lallwort ("child babble"), much like "mama" or "dada" in English. At the time he made this assertion, there simply wasn't as comprehensive an understanding about language acquisition among children, and his students and followers were quick to spread this conjecture as fact because it made a good story (some say good "pulpit fiction"; like the "eye of the needle" being a certain gate or rock formation in Jerusalem – which is it not :) ).

It wasn't until he was challenged (most strongly by James Barr's "Abba isn't Daddy," Journal of Theological Studies 39, no. 1 [1988]: 28-47) that he retracted his statement and retreated from it completely.

However, the story stuck. And many a sermon has been crafted around it erroneously. :)

In Aramaic what would then be the equivalent to our "papa" or "daddy?"
 
Upvote 0

SteveCaruso

Translator
May 17, 2010
812
555
✟54,511.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
In Aramaic what would then be the equivalent to our "papa" or "daddy?"

Depends on the dialect. In Syriac it was baba. In Jewish Aramaic, like what Christ spoke, papi is attested (which is thought to be a loan from Greek).
 
Upvote 0

Wgw

Pray For Brussels!
May 24, 2015
4,304
2,074
✟15,107.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Conservative
No problem. :)

Jeremias' argument was simply that "Abba" was lallwort ("child babble"), much like "mama" or "dada" in English. At the time he made this assertion, there simply wasn't as comprehensive an understanding about language acquisition among children, and his students and followers were quick to spread this conjecture as fact because it made a good story (some say good "pulpit fiction"; like the "eye of the needle" being a certain gate or rock formation in Jerusalem – which is it not :) ).

It wasn't until he was challenged (most strongly by James Barr's "Abba isn't Daddy," Journal of Theological Studies 39, no. 1 [1988]: 28-47) that he retracted his statement and retreated from it completely.

However, the story stuck. And many a sermon has been crafted around it erroneously. :)

Presumably by those clerics unfamiliar with, for example, the Desert Fathers.
 
Upvote 0

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
No one is questioning how God can be God. The question is how one comes up with the idea that 'begotten' means something different than what it actually means. How was God the Son 'begotten'?

You see, that clearly shows that the Son has a beginning and therefore cannot be God as defined by 'trinity'. The simple 'fact' that the word 'Son' is used clearly defined an entity coming 'from' a Father.

I and the Father are 'one'. Does 'trinity' teach that the Son is the Father? Of course not.

Is the Father 'greater' than the Son? According to the Bible He is.

If the Father is God and the Father is greater than the Son, then it's obvious that 'trinity' is in error. For if one is greater than the other then they are not 'equal' as 'trinity' insists.


Blessings,

MEC

Yahweh rained down fire from Yahweh.

The two Yahweh's point to the one devine being, yet one is within the created realm as the Angel of Yahweh's presence and the other is heavenly who is the invisible Yahweh. The epiphany of Christ is this Yahweh.

Scripture states that the Son is the visible radiance of the invisible Yahweh/Father, making the Son the projection of Yahweh in and through the Son. Therefore two personas of the one Yahweh being.
 
Upvote 0

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
A projection of Yahweh being means two personas, therefore two presences, that is the source and the destination. If we are talking of light, then we have one light, where the source is unseen until it is projected onto something. For example we cannot see the light from the Sun until it is projected onto a surface, which is our atmosphere.

46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. (John 6:46)

Let us rewrite it as... .

No created being has seen the source Light, except the destination Light who is the projection of the source Light; only the destination Light has seen the source LIGHT.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
11Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him? (Isaiah 63:11)

In a Jewish twist, the author is virtually saying....

Where is the invisible Yahweh who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd (epiphany of Christ) of invisible Yahweh's flock? where is invisible Yahweh who put his holy Spirit within the visible Yahweh?

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. (Isaiah 63:9)

The Angel of invisible Yahweh's presence is the soul redeemer for the house of old covenant Israel.

10But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. (Isaiah 63:10)

The verse can be written as they rebelled and vexed visible Yahweh's Holy Spirit. What is happening is that visible Yahweh rains down fire from invisible Yahweh, which is pointing to two personas of the one infinite being who is one indivisible and infinite Holy Spirit (John 4:24).

Even in the Old Testament the Jewish writer distinguishes between the source who is invisible Yahweh, who put his Holy Spirit in his destination, who is the visible Yahweh.

Again we have one Holy Spirit and one Light and one Yahweh and one throne. The visible Yahweh is the one that sits on the invisible Yahweh's throne as his designated projection of his BEING.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2:9)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The Holy Spirit is the one substance that makes God God for God is Spirit, connecting the source who is the invisible Yahweh, the Father, to the visible Yahweh who is the Son. So the writer states where is he who put his Holy Spirit in him. It is the same request that Philip made in wanting to see the invisible source, who is the invisible Yahweh/Father, when the Christ who is the visible Yahweh pointed to himself as the projection of the Father's being, albeit the Son is a different persona of the same infinite being, non the less it is the same Light and the same Spirit being projected from the Father to the Son, where the Spirit is the testator of that connection, much like the medium where light travels through is the conduit connecting the source to the destination of that light source. Without the transfer medium, there is no transfer of light to the destination, hence the Spirit is an independent witness of the relationship between the source (Father) and the destination (Son) as the transfer medium. All three are required coequally and coeternally in order for every member to exist and therefore all members are the one Godbeing.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Trinity is a term used to describe the Light at the source and the same LIGHT projection at the destination, through the one Holy Spirit as the medium that connects the Father's Light to the Son.

In other words the Son is the Light projected into the world.

And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness more than light, because their deeds were evil. (John 3:19)

So any presence of invisible Yahweh into the world is through the presence of visible Yahweh, as the Son of Man. The Son is begotten or realised from the aspect of the invisible Yahweh revealing himself within his creation as a secondary personality. That is why everything is created through the visible Yahweh.

Before the material world was created the Son was in the bosom of the Father who sent or projected him into the world as his very light to be the light of all human beings (John 1:1-4)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
This is why to deny the Christ as the visible Yahweh is to deny the invisible Yahweh/Father himself.

No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23)

Since throughout the Old Testament we see the invisible Yahweh projecting his will and works through the visible Yahweh, we must acknowledge visible Yahweh in order to acknowledge invisible Yahweh/Father.

Again we are talking about the same LIGHT. The Light at the source and the destination is the same Light.

And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness more than light, because their deeds were evil. (John 3:19)

It is encumbant that no one denies the Christ as the visible Yahweh otherwise their salvation is in danger. The church fathers were definitely right at taking this matter seriously.

It is far worse to say Jesus is not the visible Yahweh, than to say that he is the visible Yahweh.

Why gamble with your salvation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BeStill&Know
Upvote 0

Imagican

old dude
Jan 14, 2006
3,027
428
63
Orlando, Florida
✟45,021.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Redleghunter,

Didn't read the entire post. Only needed to read the first couple of lines to recognize propaganda instead of anything of actual substance.

Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

This is a quote from your post.

In my Bible, when Christ responds, the 'a' in am is NOT capitalized as you have taken the liberty to do in your quote. Even those trinitarians that translated the Bible wouldn't take such liberty realizing that Christ was simply stating that before Abraham was born, Christ already existed.

And think about it, why would Christ offer such a vague inference when no one present would have had a clue as to the meaning? If He meant for the words to mean, "I am God", why not just 'say it'? So you see, the idea that Christ stating 'I am' was a reference to Him being God is a pretty 'far stretch of the imagination'.

Nice try though.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Colter

Member
Nov 9, 2004
8,711
1,406
60
✟92,791.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Redleghunter,

Didn't read the entire post. Only needed to read the first couple of lines to recognize propaganda instead of anything of actual substance.

Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

This is a quote from your post.

In my Bible, when Christ responds, the 'a' in am is NOT capitalized as you have taken the liberty to do in your quote. Even those trinitarians that translated the Bible wouldn't take such liberty realizing that Christ was simply stating that before Abraham was born, Christ already existed.

And think about it, why would Christ offer such a vague inference when no one present would have had a clue as to the meaning? If He meant for the words to mean, "I am God", why not just 'say it'? So you see, the idea that Christ stating 'I am' was a reference to Him being God is a pretty 'far stretch of the imagination'.

Nice try though.

Blessings,

MEC

The identity of the Son of God incarnate was a secret to the extent that it was even understood. Jesus forbid his apostles from revealing his identity until after he retuned to heaven.


(Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-20; John 6:66-71)

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God"

... "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

"Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ."
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
59
Texas
✟49,429.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Think about this:

Every concept that God has desired to be delivered has been clearly offered in the Bible.

This is absolutely not true. We now see through a glass darkly.
 
Upvote 0

nomadictheist

Alive in Christ
Feb 8, 2014
775
647
Home
✟21,570.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Redleghunter,

Didn't read the entire post. Only needed to read the first couple of lines to recognize propaganda instead of anything of actual substance.

Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

This is a quote from your post.

In my Bible, when Christ responds, the 'a' in am is NOT capitalized as you have taken the liberty to do in your quote. Even those trinitarians that translated the Bible wouldn't take such liberty realizing that Christ was simply stating that before Abraham was born, Christ already existed.

And think about it, why would Christ offer such a vague inference when no one present would have had a clue as to the meaning? If He meant for the words to mean, "I am God", why not just 'say it'? So you see, the idea that Christ stating 'I am' was a reference to Him being God is a pretty 'far stretch of the imagination'.
The fact that you would even suggest that no one present would have a clue as to what "I am" meant in the context of Yahweh shows an appalling ignorance of his audience or an equally disturbing intent to deceive. Especially in the context in which it was used, this would be (rightly) interpreted by any Jew as a claim to deity.

"You shall tell them that "I am" has sent you."
Imagican said:
Nice try though.

Blessings,

MEC
So basically you said "I'm going to post 100 points composed of my own philosophical interpretation of scripture and demand that you answer them. But anything you quote from the scripture is propaganda, and I'm not going to read it. Nice try."

At least you've admitted that you see scripture as "propaganda" when it doesn't agree with your philosophy.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
59
Texas
✟49,429.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
If He meant for the words to mean, "I am God", why not just 'say it'?


Jesus wasn't finished with his work yet and was not ready to be killed, which he would have been if he claimed to be God in an unambiguous way.

Here's a question for you.

Who is "us" and "our" in the following statement:

Gen 1
26Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.