The True Church

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
No, I'm referring to all of it, not defending or exalting one above another.. just the whole trying to look good on the outside but for who's benefit? God could care less, He looks on our hearts, so why the need to "dress up" to be part of a church?
The reason I asked that is because I think you'll find a lot of sympathy for opposing pastors wearing $1000 suits. But, when priests or ministers in the liturgical churches wear their vestments, one of the reasons is so that they will be literally cloaked, i.e. not seen to be presenting themselves dressed in the way of the world with all the comparisons and "better thans" that we get with the $1000 suit crowd.

That said, however, I repeat my first comment that there's a difference between this particular controversy and the much more fundamental question that you also touched upon of "What is the nature of the true church of Christ?"
 
  • Like
Reactions: civilwarbuff
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟188,109.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The reason I asked that is because I think you'll find a lot of sympathy for opposing pastors wearing $1000 suits. But, when priests or ministers in the liturgical churches wear their vestments, one of the reasons is so that they will be literally cloaked, i.e. not seen to be presenting themselves dressed in the way of the world with all the comparisons and "better thans" that we get with the $1000 suit crowd.

That said, however, I repeat my first comment that there's a difference between this particular controversy and the much more fundamental question that you also touched upon of "What is the nature of the true church of Christ?"
Is the pomp and ceremony any better than the $$ suits? Does it convey the same message?
 
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟188,109.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
That said, however, I repeat my first comment that there's a difference between this particular controversy and the much more fundamental question that you also touched upon of "What is the nature of the true church of Christ?"


Of course, the true nature of His people needs to be in line with the gifts of the Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Is the pomp and ceremony any better than the $$ suits? Does it convey the same message?
Pomp and ceremony is not synonymous with special attire. I know plenty of non-liturgical churches that engage in all sorts of rituals, special language, posturing, etc. But to address your question very directly, yes, "pomp and ceremony" are much better than the $$ suits.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wgw
Upvote 0

Wgw

Pray For Brussels!
May 24, 2015
4,304
2,074
✟15,107.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Conservative
Not feeling hostile at all....but "costumes".....really? If POTUS came to your church, in a suit, to say some words ....would you consider that a costume?....If I showed up in your church in my dress greens (even tho they don't fit any more) to give a message, would that be a costume?

Since the US Army deprecated dress greens in favour of dress blues, I daresay it would be a costume. :p
 
Upvote 0

Wgw

Pray For Brussels!
May 24, 2015
4,304
2,074
✟15,107.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Conservative
I myself have great admiration for clergy who don clerical collars or cassocks; they really bear quite a cross given the continual mockery by secularists, abuse from low church Christians, and in some cases, false accusations of paedophilia.
 
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟188,109.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Pomp and ceremony is not synonymous with special attire. I know plenty of non-liturgical churches that engage in all sorts of rituals, special language, posturing, etc. But to address your question very directly, yes, "pomp and ceremony" are much better than the $$ suits.
Why is that? Is that the gospel that Jesus taught? My point is that I see less and less of Jesus' gospel message in the way our churches today have structured themselves and how they worship. From the over the top opulence and pomp and ceremony of the RC to the celebration services that seem to pattern themselves after a rock concert. Where is the humble, self sacrificing, straight testimony that permeated the first century church? The label of the last church dispensation as Laodicea is sadly accurate and the message for that church is a sobering one...
 
  • Like
Reactions: amariselle
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟188,109.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I myself have great admiration for clergy who don clerical collars or cassocks; they really bear quite a cross given the continual mockery by secularists, abuse from low church Christians, and in some cases, false accusations of paedophilia.
Maybe you can help me out... what is the history of the collars. Like I said in my OP, I can at least appreciate the differentiation of the laity from the leaders. However, I don't see a Biblical reference for the NT church.
 
Upvote 0

Wgw

Pray For Brussels!
May 24, 2015
4,304
2,074
✟15,107.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Conservative
Mind expounding on these answers? Why is opulence and pomp a sign of Christ's church? I thought He denounced the church of His day against the very same thing.

Our Lord denounced the legalist hypocrisy of the self-effacing scribes and pharisees. He did not, however, speak out against the very elaborate decoration, vestments, or liturgical ceremony in the Temple, and indeed, we see Him from an early age having rather a keen interest in the Temple.

Maybe you can help me out... what is the history of the collars. Like I said in my OP, I can at least appreciate the differentiation of the laity from the leaders. However, I don't see a Biblical reference for the NT church.

They were invented in the 19th century by a Church of Scotland minister. If memory serves they are derived from "preaching bands." They are not traditionally worn by most Orthodox priests.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Paul Yohannan
Upvote 0

Peter Johnson

Royal Priest
Oct 2, 2010
41
20
Newcastle, Australia
✟7,976.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Thank you EastCoastRemnant for your thread. I will offer a few thoughts which tackle some of your concerns.

Summarising, and generally so, I think you are exploring as much as challenging whether the "impression" we give by way of "appearance" thru the great variety of dress codes (whatever it be, wherever) conveys to people, believer or not, the essential nature of "the true Church of Christ", as God intends. Furthermore, you have put forward the idea that "Christ's life and the lives of the apostles" serve as examples as how we should live; compared with the mode of dress of various "ministers" today. At the heart of your question is how is "Christ's character and ministry" to be represented by us, and is the way we do things the way he taught us to love?" You have, of course, offered other thoughts around these things, but I will confine my comment to those things I have outlined above.

So, how did our Lord present himself and with what is God satisfied? To be sure, Jesus did not dishonour his Father. He was in all things, "about his Father's business" and, I would expect, that included the way he dressed. Nor did he draw attention to himself -- he didn't go about naked as some Eastern mystics do these days -- but ensured that his Father was glorified thru every aspect of his life. In such a way he is our absolute example whom we should imitate, as Paul admonishes.

Jesus and Paul knew -- and we should know -- "The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." (1Sa_16:7). Indeed, Apostle Paul writes, "God does not judge by external appearance"; rather, as Paul continues, "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me." (Gal 2:6, 9). So in that we have the examples of the Apostles, to look at the grace of God within, not how we dress, and accept people on that basis (even if they don't dress according to our preferences and sensitivities).

In such a way the Church should exhibit the grace of God which changes our hearts into hearts pleasing and acceptable to Him. Anything else can be a distraction, especially our pride. Pride is a deceitful thing for it can convince us that we should, or we should not, dress in this way or that in order to be accepted by OTHERS; even believing that our lack of vestments is what will lead God to accept us. We are only acceptable to the Father because we are "IN CHRIST". Christ is our robe of righteousness which is pleasing to God and it is God who dresses us. On fact, we are to be clothed by the holy Spirit: "I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." Luke 124:49.

People are not to see 'us' but see God in us: "After John's messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? (25) If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. (26) But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet." (Luke 7:24-26 NIV)

So, IMHO, we shouldn't attempt to draw people to ourselves or even to the good gospel we preach through the way we dress-up or dress-down. I note, tho, that just as polished dress may turn some people away so can grubby dress. What is important is that the Gospel is preached and we should not do anything to hinder that. This may mean that we dress with some respect to those to whom we preach. Jeans and bare feet may not encourage businessmen, for example, to listen to our message; nor would an Armani suit go down well among the down-and-outs. Wisdom is needed and pride of place and presentation is to be despised. But that is not to say that the Holy Spirit cannot cut through our insensitivities or our circumstances in which our dress may not fit the context.

As for the papas, the fatherly-figures in their the priestly-style vestments and titles -- Remember: "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." (Matt 23:9). However, I dare not think more highly of myself because I don't wear such things.

Tongue-in-cheek I will add a variation on John 6:68-69:
Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You are the one who dresses in a way that pleases us so very well, so we can forget all this stuff about having the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God because you look sooooooo good and your eloquent words that caress our pride satisfy our itching ears!"

Having said all that, above all, let us be seen as those who live with the love of God toward each other, just as Jesus tells us all, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-3.

Thanks ECRemnant for your question; it has caused me to think about how I live out my life in Christ before others.
Regards,
Peter.

Some other verses to guide us....
~ Zechariah 3 is a good read!
~ Mat_5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
~ Mat_6:1 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
 
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟188,109.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Thank you EastCoastRemnant for your thread. I will offer a few thoughts which tackle some of your concerns.

Summarising, and generally so, I think you are exploring as much as challenging whether the "impression" we give by way of "appearance" thru the great variety of dress codes (whatever it be, wherever) conveys to people, believer or not, the essential nature of "the true Church of Christ", as God intends. Furthermore, you have put forward the idea that "Christ's life and the lives of the apostles" serve as examples as how we should live; compared with the mode of dress of various "ministers" today. At the heart of your question is how is "Christ's character and ministry" to be represented by us, and is the way we do things the way he taught us to love?" You have, of course, offered other thoughts around these things, but I will confine my comment to those things I have outlined above.

So, how did our Lord present himself and with what is God satisfied? To be sure, Jesus did not dishonour his Father. He was in all things, "about his Father's business" and, I would expect, that included the way he dressed. Nor did he draw attention to himself -- he didn't go about naked as some Eastern mystics do these days -- but ensured that his Father was glorified thru every aspect of his life. In such a way he is our absolute example whom we should imitate, as Paul admonishes.

Jesus and Paul knew -- and we should know -- "The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." (1Sa_16:7). Indeed, Apostle Paul writes, "God does not judge by external appearance"; rather, as Paul continues, "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me." (Gal 2:6, 9). So in that we have the examples of the Apostles, to look at the grace of God within, not how we dress, and accept people on that basis (even if they don't dress according to our preferences and sensitivities).

In such a way the Church should exhibit the grace of God which changes our hearts into hearts pleasing and acceptable to Him. Anything else can be a distraction, especially our pride. Pride is a deceitful thing for it can convince us that we should, or we should not, dress in this way or that in order to be accepted by OTHERS; even believing that our lack of vestments is what will lead God to accept us. We are only acceptable to the Father because we are "IN CHRIST". Christ is our robe of righteousness which is pleasing to God and it is God who dresses us. On fact, we are to be clothed by the holy Spirit: "I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." Luke 124:49.

People are not to see 'us' but see God in us: "After John's messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? (25) If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. (26) But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet." (Luke 7:24-26 NIV)

So, IMHO, we shouldn't attempt to draw people to ourselves or even to the good gospel we preach through the way we dress-up or dress-down. I note, tho, that just as polished dress may turn some people away so can grubby dress. What is important is that the Gospel is preached and we should not do anything to hinder that. This may mean that we dress with some respect to those to whom we preach. Jeans and bare feet may not encourage businessmen, for example, to listen to our message; nor would an Armani suit go down well among the down-and-outs. Wisdom is needed and pride of place and presentation is to be despised. But that is not to say that the Holy Spirit cannot cut through our insensitivities or our circumstances in which our dress may not fit the context.

As for the papas, the fatherly-figures in their the priestly-style vestments and titles -- Remember: "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." (Matt 23:9). However, I dare not think more highly of myself because I don't wear such things.

Tongue-in-cheek I will add a variation on John 6:68-69:
Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You are the one who dresses in a way that pleases us so very well, so we can forget all this stuff about having the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God because you look sooooooo good and your eloquent words that caress our pride satisfy our itching ears!"

Having said all that, above all, let us be seen as those who live with the love of God toward each other, just as Jesus tells us all, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-3.

Thanks ECRemnant for your question; it has caused me to think about how I live out my life in Christ before others.
Regards,
Peter.

Some other verses to guide us....
~ Zechariah 3 is a good read!
~ Mat_5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
~ Mat_6:1 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

Thank you Peter and God bless you for engaging in an intelligent discussion on my question. I appreciate what you brought to the conversation... I too think about how I live my life before others and I naturally wondered about our shepherds and how they are perceived.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Peter Johnson

Royal Priest
Oct 2, 2010
41
20
Newcastle, Australia
✟7,976.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
I find it more revealing of the church today in reading the custom titles that peeps adorn themselves with than any clothing could reveal.
:)
And then there are the descriptors used by particular communities and powerful-looking architectural edifices.
 
Upvote 0

civilwarbuff

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 28, 2015
14,595
7,106
✟611,873.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Why is that? Is that the gospel that Jesus taught? My point is that I see less and less of Jesus' gospel message in the way our churches today have structured themselves and how they worship. From the over the top opulence and pomp and ceremony of the RC to the celebration services that seem to pattern themselves after a rock concert. Where is the humble, self sacrificing, straight testimony that permeated the first century church? The label of the last church dispensation as Laodicea is sadly accurate and the message for that church is a sobering one...
Then you need to find another church....
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums