(MOVED) Is Revelation "The Christian Bible book", a Warning?

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The five wise are not individuals but rather groups of God's people (covenant people) who God deals with sequentially (the First Resurrection). The five unwise are those who sequentially took no notice of the five before they were "taken

havevisions said:

Its sobering to read Revelation. I believe it, try to live in expectation of its fulfillment (either on earth or in heaven) and take comfort in it (because of its promises).
I do not want to wait until Rev. 5:13 when every creature on earth and in heaven will give honor and praise to the Lamb, I'd rather do it now, as I have been for years.

There are many unknowns: such as 1) Is the earthquake in 6:12 the same one as in Ezekiel 38, 39 in the attack on Israel?
2) Is the great multitude in 7:9 the raptured ones, assuming the 144,000 Israeli evengelists would have been raptured if the rapture were sooner. 3) Does the tribulation period start with the red horse in 6:3.............

I could go on and on, but space doesn't allow. But I don't think believers will be on earth during the horrors of chapter 8 and 9. But unbelievers should read Revelations and take heed. Its going to come to pass whether you believe it or not.

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1) Ezekiel 38 and 39 are about Gog and Magog. This battle comes after the millennial reign of Christ, per Revelation 20. I have no reason to believe there are two Gog/Magog battles (one before and one after the millennium). They try to attack Israel when she is living in peace "without walls". This doesn't make sense now, but it makes perfect sense during Jesus' reign.

2) The great multitude are described as being clothed in white robes. If you go back to chapter 6, those given white robes are the ones who have been martyred for their faith (see seal 5). Now the angel in chapter 7 says that these clothed in white robes are those who have come out of the Tribulation. To come out, they had to be in it. It talks about God wiping their tears away and about how they won't experience hunger and heat/fire anymore. Does that sound like rapture to you? I think the most straightforward reading is that the great multitude in Revelation 7 are martyrs of the Tribulation. Revelation 7 is divided into two groups - the 144,00 Jewish believers in Jesus whose lives are protected from the plagues, and the great multitude who I see as entering the presence of the Lamb by martyrdom. I don't really believe it's possible for any Christian (who is a Christian coming into the Tribulation) to survive the Tribulation unless he is one of 144,000.

havevisions said:

I'm glad I will not be here!

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Are you sure? If so, why?

I expect to be, if I don't die first.

stephen583 said:

The Book of Revelation is filled with so much symbolism and so much figurative language, it virtually seems to defy any exact interpretation, doesn't it ?!

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I think Revelation is generally straightforward with a few obvious exceptions (e.g. symbols defined and explained such as in Chapters 12 and 13).

Luke17:37 said:

I think Revelation is generally straightforward with a few obvious exceptions (e.g. symbols defined and explained such as in Chapters 12 and 13).

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"FOR NOW WE LOOK THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY" (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Generally straightforward ?! [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] ! NOBODY IS GOING TO HAVE A "COMPLETE" UNDERSTANDING OF THE MEANING OF THE REVELATION PROPHECY, UNTIL THE SECOND ADVENT OF CHRIST OCCURS. IT SAYS SO, RIGHT THERE IN 1 COR. 13:12. I've been working on it for over 40 years myself, and I've got a few things figured out, but they didn't come from "speculating" about the meaning of the Revelation prophecy in advance of its' fulfillment. All those attempts always resulted in disappointing "misinterpretations" that turned out to be "generally" inaccurate.

stephen583 said:

"FOR NOW WE LOOK THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY" (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Generally straightforward ?! [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] ! NOBODY IS GOING TO HAVE A "COMPLETE" UNDERSTANDING OF THE MEANING OF THE REVELATION PROPHECY, UNTIL THE SECOND ADVENT OF CHRIST OCCURS. IT SAYS SO, RIGHT THERE IN 1 COR. 13:12. I've been working on it for over 40 years myself, and I've got a few things figured out, but they didn't come from "speculating" about the meaning of the Revelation prophecy in advance of its' fulfillment. All those attempts always resulted in disappointing "misinterpretations" that turned out to be "generally" inaccurate.

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Not a complete understanding of everything in Revelation, I can agree to that. But we can understand a lot in Revelation.

I also agree that Revelation is not generally straightforward (in my own opinion of what would be considered straightforward) because it takes a lot of dedication to pursue the understanding of what is meant throughout Revelation.

Revelation can be understood for the most part if the understanding harmonizes with the correct end times scenario - which includes all of the end times prophecies throughout the rest of the bible.

stephen583 said:

"FOR NOW WE LOOK THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY" (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Generally straightforward ?! [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] ! NOBODY IS GOING TO HAVE A "COMPLETE" UNDERSTANDING OF THE MEANING OF THE REVELATION PROPHECY, UNTIL THE SECOND ADVENT OF CHRIST OCCURS. IT SAYS SO, RIGHT THERE IN 1 COR. 13:12. I've been working on it for over 40 years myself, and I've got a few things figured out, but they didn't come from "speculating" about the meaning of the Revelation prophecy in advance of its' fulfillment. All those attempts always resulted in disappointing "misinterpretations" that turned out to be "generally" inaccurate.

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Stephen, you exaggerate. You just made the case that Revelation is mostly allegorical.

stephen583 said: ↑
The Book of Revelation is filled with so much symbolism and so much figurative language, it virtually seems to defy any exact interpretation, doesn't it ?!

I simply said I think there's a lot that's literal, and some of the symbols are easily understood (or given for us) in context. I didn't say I understand every single thing at this moment.

If it were impossible for Christians to gain a good understanding of Revelation, God wouldn't have written it for us. The theory that it's impossible to gain a good understanding is knocked down by the first verse, actually.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place...

There's nothing wrong with having theories as long as you refer to it as a theory and you're willing to give it up later if Scripture or real life show that it's wrong.

1 Corinthians 13:12 is not talking about the book of Revelation. It's saying that until we meet Christ face to face (and the sin nature we battle here is left in grave), we won't know Him to the degree that we will know Him then. Understanding Scripture and knowing God deeply are not the same thing. If you started a relationship with a woman by e-mail and/or telephone, no matter what you discuss, you probably will learn to know her much better when you actually meet her in person and have the opportunity to watch her interact with the people in the world around her (e.g., her family, your family, waiters, authorities, etc.). Also many people say they got to know their spouse much better when they had actually married versus the time when they were just dating.

PS. I wasn't saying anything mean to you, that you should feel the desire to curse me. Thanks for the blessing, though! It seems like you are overreacting a little. I'm not your enemy and I'm not persecuting you.

Luke17:37 said:

1) Ezekiel 38 and 39 are about Gog and Magog. This battle comes after the millennial reign of Christ, per Revelation 20. I have no reason to believe there are two Gog/Magog battles (one before and one after the millennium). They try to attack Israel when she is living in peace "without walls". This doesn't make sense now, but it makes perfect sense during Jesus' reign.

2) The great multitude are described as being clothed in white robes. If you go back to chapter 6, those given white robes are the ones who have been martyred for their faith (see seal 5). Now the angel in chapter 7 says that these clothed in white robes are those who have come out of the Tribulation. To come out, they had to be in it. It talks about God wiping their tears away and about how they won't experience hunger and heat/fire anymore. Does that sound like rapture to you? I think the most straightforward reading is that the great multitude in Revelation 7 are martyrs of the Tribulation. Revelation 7 is divided into two groups - the 144,00 Jewish believers in Jesus whose lives are protected from the plagues, and the great multitude who I see as entering the presence of the Lamb by martyrdom. I don't really believe it's possible for any Christian (who is a Christian coming into the Tribulation) to survive the Tribulation unless he is one of 144,000.



Are you sure? If so, why?

I expect to be, if I don't die first.

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You are spot on about the "great multitude". FAR too many people on this site believe that this great multitude is talking about the people who have been Raptured. They are SADLY mistaken.

Wouldn't it be nice if the bible presented "rapture theory" coherently in one chapter of scripture? As it is, the theory is cobbled together from several different biblical sources all of which could be interpreted differently. No wonder so many disagree on the various details while others, like myself, remain totally unconvinced. Beyond this, I do not believe that it is intellectually, emotionally or even spiritually healthy to live our lives in constant expectation of the end times. We should live our lives optimistically with a view to making this world a better place not just today or tomorrow but into the far distant future.

JackRT said:

Wouldn't it be nice if the bible presented "rapture theory" coherently in one chapter of scripture? As it is, the theory is cobbled together from several different biblical sources all of which could be interpreted differently. No wonder so many disagree on the various details while others, like myself, remain totally unconvinced.

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It's not difficult to get a coherent picture if you take a little bit of time to study it (with prayerful desire to understand the truth), which is what I did when I was only a teenager. I'm convinced the Tribulation/Return of Christ Scriptures are like the parables... God wrote them so that the elect could uncover it and the people who aren't elect will stay blind. Try searching for proof of a pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture. It's not there. There's one Resurrection/Gathering of the Church when Jesus returns. But don't take my word for it.

JackRT said:

Beyond this, I do not believe that it is intellectually, emotionally or even spiritually healthy to live our lives in constant expectation of the end times. We should live our lives optimistically with a view to making this world a better place not just today or tomorrow but into the far distant future.

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Matthew 28:18–20 (NKJV)
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

2 Peter 3:10–15 (NKJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,

There isn't anything wrong (or unhealthy) with studying the Tribulation/Return of Christ as long as we aren't neglecting to obey the orders the Lord gave us - to make disciples who obey everything Jesus commanded (and to ourselves be disciples who obey everything Jesus commanded). In the course of doing that, we are trying to make this world a better place (through dead people coming to life and being made in the image of Jesus). Knowing that this world is passing away doesn't mean we should abuse it. However, we should not hold on to it as significant in comparison with the everlasting kingdom of God.

JackRT said:

Wouldn't it be nice if the bible presented "rapture theory" coherently in one chapter of scripture? As it is, the theory is cobbled together from several different biblical sources all of which could be interpreted differently. No wonder so many disagree on the various details while others, like myself, remain totally unconvinced. Beyond this, I do not believe that it is intellectually, emotionally or even spiritually healthy to live our lives in constant expectation of the end times. We should live our lives optimistically with a view to making this world a better place not just today or tomorrow but into the far distant future.

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The end times is not a future timeframe. We are in the end times. We have been in the end times since Israel became a nation again. And we are rapidly approaching the beginning of the last 7 years. Which makes it even more important to do what Jesus said to do in Luke 21:34-38.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

We are supposed to be vigilant so that day does not come upon us unawares.

If persons followed your advice, they would be ignorant of what is going on - because that information is in the bible, in end times passages.

If you go with the "anytime rapture" view, it is impossible to be wrong, because in that view, we are to be watchful and praying, between now and when the rapture actually takes place. Without relying on a mandatory timing theory.

I disagree. I believe that the early church made a huge mistake in their apocalyptic expectations. Over the centuries it has caused much emotional and spiritual distress and has even induced people to make poor decisions for themselves and their families. Since the invention of rapture theory circa 1840 there has been even more anguish as one true believer after another has predicted one end times date after another. The most recent one predicted was yesterday and that right here on this forum. I will remain skeptical if only for my own self preservation.

JackRT said:

I disagree. I believe that the early church made a huge mistake in their apocalyptic expectations. Over the centuries it has caused much emotional and spiritual distress and has even induced people to make poor decisions for themselves and their families. Since the invention of rapture theory circa 1840 there has been even more anguish as one true believer after another has predicted one end times date after another. The most recent one predicted was yesterday and that right here on this forum. I will remain skeptical if only for my own self preservation.

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We are not the early church. We have monumental signs to know we are living in the very very last of the last days.

If you adopt the anytime rapture view as your view - it will save you a lot of headaches in arguments (as pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib, post trib) and still know that you are right if you adhere to the precepts of watching and praying.

I changed from pre-trib to anytime rapture view. Because the rapture can happen anytime, and because we are in a pre-trib status, it is possible that the rapture may indeed turn out to be pre-trib. But it doesn't have to be pre-trib.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God is the priority. Making the world a better place to live is secondary to that.

Being skeptical is not the substance of faith.

A healthy skepticism is an inoculation against charlatans of every stripe. And, yes, there are religious and medical and scientific charlatans.

JackRT said:

A healthy skepticism is an inoculation against charlatans of every stripe. And, yes, there are religious and medical and scientific charlatans.

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Rejection of charlatans is not a problem. But that should not be an excuse not to pursue understanding the end times scenario, and to be watching and praying, aware of the times which we live.