Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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John S said in post 6547:

Since there will NOT be a Rapture . . .

Actually, there will be a rapture. For the English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).
 
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iamlamad said in post 6549:

Jesus will come for ONE if there is only ONE ready.

Do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation, and/or by living holy lives? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which will be the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

iamlamad said in post 6549:

No amount of unbelief on the earth will prevent His coming for His saints.

Amen.

But note that Jesus' coming for his saints and with his saints will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before he descends to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

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iamlamad said in post 6558:

That is your theory: very few believe it, and I surely don't. It goes against too many scriptures rightly divided.

In 2 Timothy 2:15b, "rightly dividing the word of truth" refers to how the Bible was originally written down in manuscripts which had no spaces between the words, no punctuation, and no distinguishing capitalization or non-capitalization. That is, it was just an unbroken stream of upper- or lower-case letters. So, for example, Genesis 1:6-7 would have looked like this:

andgodsaidlettherebeafirmamentinthemidstofthewatersandletitdividethewa
tersfromthewatersandgodmadethefirmamentanddividedthewaterswhichwere
underthefirmamentfromthewaterswhichwereabovethefirmamentanditwasso

This meant that those who studied the Bible (2 Timothy 2:15a) had to rightly divide between the words in order to arrive at the correct meaning. So, in the above example, if one mistakenly divided "watersandletitdividethewaters" into the words "water: sand, let it divide the waters", one would come away with the mistaken idea that Genesis 1:6-7 refers to God creating sand bars, instead of him creating the atmosphere (the firmament, the 1st heaven, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20b) to hold water up in the air (such as in clouds), above and separate from the water in the ocean.

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iamlamad said in post 6559:

Seven years is a long time when terrible things are taking place. MUCH can happen. For example, the 144000 are seen on earth, then seen in heaven.

That's right (Revelation 7, then Revelation 14).

And note that the 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will even be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, note that the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).
 
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BABerean2 said in post 6552:

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This is the birth and death of Jesus Christ, which took place almost 2,000 years ago.

Actually, in Revelation 12:5, the "man child" isn't Jesus, for Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up physically to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

BABerean2 said in post 6552:

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This verse proves there will be Christians alive during this time.
Therefore, John Darby's claim that the age of Grace will end before this time is not true.

Regarding the present age (world) ending, it should also be noted that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

BABerean2 said in post 6552:

No matter how many times the truth is presented, some will never be able to let go of Darby's doctrine that has spread like a virus through the evangelical Church.

The Darby doctrine is mistaken because it teaches a man-invented, pre-tribulation rapture, and one into the 3rd heaven, rather than the Biblical, post-tribulation rapture into the sky (the 1st heaven) (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:17). Also, the Darby doctrine is mistaken because it teaches a man-invented form of dispensationalism, which sets up a mutual exclusiveness between the church and Israel, rather than teaching Biblical covenantalism (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15, Jeremiah 31:31-34).
 
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keras said in post 6554:

You, Iamlamad and all who have been fooled into believing the false theory of a rapture to heaven, must now repent of that belief. Do it NOW, before the terrible Day of the Lord's judgement comes, and all who expected to be raptured outta here, are left thinking that God has let them down and may lose their faith in Him.

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is indeed dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
 
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Actually, in Revelation 12:5, the "man child" isn't Jesus, for Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b).


Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.



Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

..................................................................................



Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.



Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

....................................................................................


Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat_2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.


Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
.
 
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Lamad from post # 6548

Here we go again! Revelation is written in an order. The burden of proof is for you to prove by scripture that it cannot be in order.

You are correct” Revelation is written in an order”, it is the order John received and wrote it down not the order every event will happen. You have partially acknowledged this by your “parenthesis” and your analysis of the throne room scene of chapter 5. Much has been offered on this site in the way of scriptural proof but your cookie jar theology and human reasoning arguments, will not allow you to do what you require of others. You have offered no “proof” as you say of your position, just clichés and reliance on your own version of common sense.

Postvieww from Post #6546: The wording of Rev 10:7 and 11:15 & 18 suggest...

But can you PROVE this scripturally? Of course you can't. It is a theory that cannot be proven. It "suggests" only to those that wish to argue with John's chronology.

The whole pretrib rapture theory is a theory that cannot be proven with plain scripture, but that doesn’t stop you. Whenever someone offers clearly worded text that refutes your doctrine it is you that has to interpret it out of existence with alternate definitions , human reasoning arguments, commentaries or just ignore points made.


Postvieww from Post #6546: Nothing in scripture even hints that there are more than seven trumpets.

To imagine that a bible from front to back includes many trumpets for many purposes, it is ludicrous to think that the 7th in Revelation will be the very last trumpet ever sounded. Is it possible a trumpet will survive the 7 years and be sounded in the Millennial reign? Is it possible that an angel might sound a trumpet during the millennium? Of course, not only possible but EXTREMELY probable.

Your above argument is a perfect example of the human reasoning trickery you are famous for.

The context of 1 Corin 15:52 is not all eternity it is the return of Christ and the end of this age, the context of the 7th trumpet is, I believe at the end of the tribulation you believe it is the mid point, in any event the majority of Revelation is not about all eternity or every trumpet ever made or will be blown. This is a defined period of time and the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet we are told that will be blown in that time frame. Your argument on this topic is not based on scripture and is not relevant to this point. There may be a million trumpets blown in the Millennial reign or after and I hope you get to blow one, but that has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. It is just another of your diversionary tactics to avoid and confuse the issue.

Lamad wrote in post # 6550

This has little to do with doctrine; it has much to do with common sense in studying God's word and determining the intent of the Author.

And only you can properly do that??????

Again it would be ludicrous to imagine that this 7 trumpets are the only trumpets in existence and when the final one is sounded there will never, ever, be another trumpet sounded! Anyone with a lick of common sense would know the intent of the Author would be that these seven are only a SERIES of trumpets and that other trumpets exist elsewhere, both in scripture and in the world.

Here you go proving my above point again.

Your problem: you see ONE WORD in a verse and the same word in another verse and then IMAGINE they are speaking of the same very trumpet. Again this is absurd. This kind of exegeses leads to follies such as:

Your problem is you can’t even find one word that proves the pretrib doctrine you promote, and your only defense is to criticize those that offer clearly worded scripture that refutes your doctrine.

Your kind of " is plainly written:"

Matthew 27:5

And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37

... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Anyone with a lick of common sense KNOWs these scriptures are not meant to be put together like this.

I agree with your above statement, but this is an old worn out example which is just another desperate attempt on your part to cloud the issue.

Anyone with a lick of sense knows that the "last trump" of Paul has absolutely nothing to do with the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

Completely your opinion, which you cannot back up with scripture.

Revelation was not written for years after Paul wrote about the last trump.

I am sure the Holy Ghost new what John would write.
 
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iamlamad

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Keras asked:
The question is: Where are the Saints, the Lord's holy ones, His elect, His chosen: when the Beast, the Anti-Christ, Satan: has his time, times and a half a time, 3.5 years, 42 months, 1260 days of power over the earth?
Daniel 7:25 ..... the holy ones of the Most High will be delivered into his power...... Also Daniel 11:32
Revelation 13:5-7..... The beast was allowed to wage war on God's people and to defeat them......Revelation 18:4
The answer is: the living Saints, Christians, all whom God has called to be His own, are ON EARTH.
Revelation 13:12 This calls for the endurance of God's people......

Lamlamad replied: That is your theory: very few believe it, and I surely don't. It goes against too many scriptures rightly divided.
My theory?..... No, just the Prophetic truth.
Very few believe it?...... A pretentious comment, totally unsupportable.
I surely don't... Yes, you are locked into the rapture lie.
...scriptures rightly divided...... A phrase used by those who try to gain the moral high ground, but just display their paucity of real knowledge of God's plans for our future.

The verses I posted ARE scripture. It speaks the truth. Either believe what is Written, or believe lies.
This reply proves that you don't believe or just ignore scriptures that contradict your false beliefs.

When I meet you in the holy Land and provided you are a true believer in Jesus, we may well do so, I won't ask 'how it all went for you', because you will be unable to reply, for shame and embarrassment.

You post scriptures, but NOT "rightly divided" scripture. Your theory is so far out into left field you have left the entire ball park and the city the park is in.

I DO believe the scriptures you post are true. I do believe the saints will be OVERCOME just as in written in Daniel and Revelation. You IGNORE these scriptures. What part of "overcome" do you not get? In fact, the very first place saints will be overcome will be Jerusalem and Israel - the very place you think we go to hide. The BEAST and false prophet will be LIVING IN JERUSALEM, and this great city will be the CENTER for the martyrdom of millions of saints. Yet you imagine that is where all the believers will go. WRONG! The believers will be taken OUT and to heaven, where Jesus went to prepare mansions for us.

I believe John 14. You may say you believe it to, but it will certainly not be the author's intent. It will be spun.

The question is: Where are the Saints, the Lord's holy ones, His elect, His chosen: when the Beast, the Anti-Christ, Satan: has his ... 42 months, ... of power over the earth?

Those that are IN CHRIST will be in their mansions in heaven via 1 Thes. 4 and 1 Cor. 15. Some of the Jews that WILL be saved will have fled into the wilderness near Bozrah - probably the ancient city of Petra. They will be protected there supernaturally.

Other Jews must be imprisoned in Jerusalem, for when Jesus touches down and the mountain divides, it makes a way of escape for others. But ONLY A FRACTION of the Jews will be saved. Some will be carried away as slaves and many will be killed. The city (of Jerusalem) will be overcome and burned.

Revelation 13:12 This calls for the endurance of God's people......

God's people who were left behind, all the new believers that come when they realize the rapture was TRUTH, and then the Jews who will be saved: THESE will have to have endurance. But as is written, THEY WILL BE OVERCOME. The ONLY people what John specifically says will be protected are those who flee into the wilderness. And they will be JEWS and Hebrews.

Very few believe it?...... A pretentious comment, totally unsupportable.

I have never heard your theory before. I have not been in a closet these 69 years.

I surely don't... Yes, you are locked into the rapture lie.

Theories - that is all you have - and WRONG theories at that. There is NO SUCH THING as "the rapture lie" except denying it. WAKE UP! YOU will be left behind.

This post of yours proves that you don't believe or just ignore scriptures that contradict your false beliefs. Scriptures such as John 14. And MOST of the book of Revelation. The truth is, you THINK you know, when in fact, you don't.
 
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iamlamad

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Lamad from post # 6548

Here we go again! Revelation is written in an order. The burden of proof is for you to prove by scripture that it cannot be in order.

You are correct” Revelation is written in an order”, it is the order John received and wrote it down not the order every event will happen. You have partially acknowledged this by your “parenthesis” and your analysis of the throne room scene of chapter 5. Much has been offered on this site in the way of scriptural proof but your cookie jar theology and human reasoning arguments, will not allow you to do what you require of others. You have offered no “proof” as you say of your position, just clichés and reliance on your own version of common sense.

It is the order written. The proof must be on the other side to prove God gave these visions to John OUT OF the ORDER they will take place. You have never acknowledged whether or not you believe in these parentheses. I know them to be truth. I guess you don't believe chapters 4 & 5 were a historic vision to John in 95 AD. All I can say is, you can be wrong if you choose to, and you have. The scriptures are there: John SAW Jesus the moment He ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down.

As I posted before, when John must write of 5 events that run almost parallel at the same time, plus his main-line timeline of the seals, trumpets and vials - He MUST mention them one at a time - which he does. The beginnings of these 5 timelines are staggered - exactly as John points out: the 42 months of trampling will begin BEFORE the 42 months of authority. My point, which you have proved over and over that you don't believe, is that it is ludicrous to believe you can rearrange numbered events, such as pull the 6th seal out of its sequence and imagine it fits somewhere else. And imagining that the 7th trumpet is out of place.

Just imagining that events of the 6th seal sound like events of the 7th vial is NO PROOF. you have never offered real proof of anything. What you offer is suggestions that something MIGHT fit here or there rather than where it is written. I stand on Revelation AS WRITTEN. I find NO NEED to rearrange. And I stand by my Axiom: ANY theory that must rearrange will be proven wrong.

Postvieww from Post #6546: The wording of Rev 10:7 and 11:15 & 18 suggest...

But can you PROVE this scripturally? Of course you can't. It is a theory that cannot be proven. It "suggests" only to those that wish to argue with John's chronology.

The whole pretrib rapture theory is a theory that cannot be proven with plain scripture, but that doesn’t stop you. Whenever someone offers clearly worded text that refutes your doctrine it is you that has to interpret it out of existence with alternate definitions , human reasoning arguments, commentaries or just ignore points made.
Is 1 Thes 4 & 5, 1 Cor 15, John 14, and Rev. 6 & 7 not plain scripture? Of course it is - but you and I believe they say different things. The postview version of the rapture can no more be proven by any one explicit scripture any more that the pretrib view. Each believe comes from how we see the VERY SAME scriptures. Except the Post view requires Revelation to be rearranged. That SHOULD be an alarm bell for posttribbers.


Postvieww from Post #6546: Nothing in scripture even hints that there are more than seven trumpets.

To imagine that a bible from front to back includes many trumpets for many purposes, it is ludicrous to think that the 7th in Revelation will be the very last trumpet ever sounded. Is it possible a trumpet will survive the 7 years and be sounded in the Millennial reign? Is it possible that an angel might sound a trumpet during the millennium? Of course, not only possible but EXTREMELY probable.

Your above argument is a perfect example of the human reasoning trickery you are famous for.

The context of 1 Corin 15:52 is not all eternity it is the return of Christ and the end of this age, the context of the 7th trumpet is, I believe at the end of the tribulation you believe it is the mid point, in any event the majority of Revelation is not about all eternity or every trumpet ever made or will be blown. This is a defined period of time and the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet we are told that will be blown in that time frame. Your argument on this topic is not based on scripture and is not relevant to this point. There may be a million trumpets blown in the Millennial reign or after and I hope you get to blow one, but that has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. It is just another of your diversionary tactics to avoid and confuse the issue.

You IMAGINE Paul's "last trump" will be sounded during this "defined period of time" but the scriptures do not prove this. You imagine it because you find "trumpet" in both places. I have seen you pull this over and over and over: find one or two similar words and they say "PROVE THEY ARE NOT THE SAME." If they are written in different books, the burden of proof is for post trib to prove they ARE the same. You have never come close. And YOUR theory requires rearranging. That should be an alarm bell. I don't rearrange. I know the marriage supper, for example, will be IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. Many people have been to heaven and seen the tables all sent, name tags on each chair. Heaven is waiting for us! The sad part is, posttribbers for the most part will never see it. Why? NO FAITH. They cannot believe it as written because it does not fit.

Lamad wrote in post # 6550

This has little to do with doctrine; it has much to do with common sense in studying God's word and determining the intent of the Author.

And only you can properly do that??????
Anyone COULD. But it seems most here TURN OFF their common sense and imagine they have the right to rearrange.


Again it would be ludicrous to imagine that this 7 trumpets are the only trumpets in existence and when the final one is sounded there will never, ever, be another trumpet sounded! Anyone with a lick of common sense would know the intent of the Author would be that these seven are only a SERIES of trumpets and that other trumpets exist elsewhere, both in scripture and in the world.

Here you go proving my above point again.
Posttrib argument is that it is the LAST ONE in the bible. There is NO PROOF that was what Paul had in mind. I rest my case.


Your problem: you see ONE WORD in a verse and the same word in another verse and then IMAGINE they are speaking of the same very trumpet. Again this is absurd. This kind of exegeses leads to follies such as:

Your problem is you can’t even find one word that proves the pretrib doctrine you promote, and your only defense is to criticize those that offer clearly worded scripture that refutes your doctrine.

Here we go again: you can't find ONE WORD that proves posttrib. We don't discover truth by ONE WORD but by all the scriptures. I find holes in posttrib, such as having to rearrange - such as imagining that Matthew 24 is written for the Gentile church.

Your kind of " is plainly written:"

Matthew 27:5

And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37

... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Anyone with a lick of common sense KNOWs these scriptures are not meant to be put together like this.

I agree with your above statement, but this is an old worn out example which is just another desperate attempt on your part to cloud the issue.

On the contrary, it is an example of putting two verses together that were NOT MEANT to be together, such as "last trump" and "7th trumpet."

Anyone with a lick of sense knows that the "last trump" of Paul has absolutely nothing to do with the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

Completely your opinion, which you cannot back up with scripture.
And putting them together and imagining they are the same is opinion and cannot be backed up by scripture. They are written in different books by different authors and in truth, Revelation was not even in existence when Paul wrote. it takes imagination to think Paul's last trumpet really means John's 7th trump.


Revelation was not written for years after Paul wrote about the last trump.

I am sure the Holy Ghost new what John would write.

HE was the author! He just used John to write.
 
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keras

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BaBerean, Postview and all who refute a pre-trib rapture, with Lamad and most pre-tribbers, we are dealing with people who are actually unable to see the truth of God's plans for His people. No matter how much scripture we post, however correct our rebuttal's are, they cannot see it.
We must conclude that this is how God wants it to be and I personally view my task of warning people of the truth of God's plans for our future, to be the same as Ezekiel 33:9

Deuteronomy 29:4 To this day, the Lord has not given you a mind to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.
Isaiah 6:9-10 The Lord said to the Israelites: However hard you listen, you will never understand, however hard you look, you will never perceive. My people’s wits are dulled; they have stopped their ears and closed their eyes, so now they cannot hear, see or understand how they could be healed. Matthew 13:13
Isaiah 29:9-11 If you confuse yourselves, you will stay ignorant, for the Lord has poured on you a spirit of deep stupor and you have no prophets now. The prophetic Word has become for you like the words in a sealed book.
Isaiah 48:6-8 You have heard what I have said; consider it well, it is the truth. From now on, I will show you new things....because your understanding has been blocked. Isaiah 42:18-20
Isaiah 56:10-11 The watchmen of Israel are blind and dumb. They understand nothing, all of them going their own way and intent on their own gain.
Jeremiah 23:20 The Lord’s anger is not to be turned aside until He has fully accomplished His purposes. In days to come, you will truly understand.
 
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BaBerean, Postview and all who refute a pre-trib rapture, with Lamad and most pre-tribbers, we are dealing with people who are actually unable to see the truth of God's plans for His people. No matter how much scripture we post, however correct our rebuttal's are, they cannot see it.

Brother, I am going to disagree with you just slightly.

From what we have posted, I believe many of them can see it, but their pride will never allow them to say they were wrong. Maybe this is why some of them seem to just fade away and never return. It is easier than saying their viewpoint was proven wrong, based on scripture.


Pro_29:23 A man's pride will bring him low, But the humble in spirit will retain honor.


However, some will continue to insist that they are correct and we are wrong.

We all know that many others are visiting this site and searching for the truth.

That is why we must continue this debate.

By using what is plainly written in God's Word, the truth will continue to be revealed.

Those who oppose our viewpoint with condemnation are also providing more evidence that it is a false doctrine that cannot stand on scripture. Therefore, it requires personal attacks on those who dare to oppose John Darby's doctrine.

I appreciate you and the other Brethren who continue to speak the truth in love.

We are to also love those who stand on the other viewpoint.




1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.



1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
.
 
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iamlamad

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BaBerean, Postview and all who refute a pre-trib rapture, with Lamad and most pre-tribbers, we are dealing with people who are actually unable to see the truth of God's plans for His people. No matter how much scripture we post, however correct our rebuttal's are, they cannot see it.
We must conclude that this is how God wants it to be and I personally view my task of warning people of the truth of God's plans for our future, to be the same as Ezekiel 33:9

Deuteronomy 29:4 To this day, the Lord has not given you a mind to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.
Isaiah 6:9-10 The Lord said to the Israelites: However hard you listen, you will never understand, however hard you look, you will never perceive. My people’s wits are dulled; they have stopped their ears and closed their eyes, so now they cannot hear, see or understand how they could be healed. Matthew 13:13
Isaiah 29:9-11 If you confuse yourselves, you will stay ignorant, for the Lord has poured on you a spirit of deep stupor and you have no prophets now. The prophetic Word has become for you like the words in a sealed book.
Isaiah 48:6-8 You have heard what I have said; consider it well, it is the truth. From now on, I will show you new things....because your understanding has been blocked. Isaiah 42:18-20
Isaiah 56:10-11 The watchmen of Israel are blind and dumb. They understand nothing, all of them going their own way and intent on their own gain.
Jeremiah 23:20 The Lord’s anger is not to be turned aside until He has fully accomplished His purposes. In days to come, you will truly understand.

And this from someone that does not even understand it will be those in JUDEA that flee into the mountains and are supernaturally protected by God. I am not sure if he thinks Delta Air or El Al that will get believers from the US to the Holy Land, or if it will be an incorrect view of Paul's catching up that takes believers from around the world to the Holy Land.

John 14 tells us exactly where believers who are caught up go, but few here believe John.
 
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Brother, I am going to disagree with you just slightly.

From what we have posted, I believe many of them can see it, but their pride will never allow them to say they were wrong. Maybe this is why some of them seem to just fade away and never return. It is easier than saying their viewpoint was proven wrong, based on scripture.


Pro_29:23 A man's pride will bring him low, But the humble in spirit will retain honor.


However, some will continue to insist that they are correct and we are wrong.

We all know that many others are visiting this site and searching for the truth.

That is why we must continue this debate.

By using what is plainly written in God's Word, the truth will continue to be revealed.

Those who oppose our viewpoint with condemnation are also providing more evidence that it is a false doctrine that cannot stand on scripture. Therefore, it requires personal attacks on those who dare to oppose John Darby's doctrine.

I appreciate you and the other Brethren who continue to speak the truth in love.

We are to also love those who stand on the other viewpoint.




1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.



1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
.

You may be right on why some fade away. On the other hand, it may not be pride: it may be wisdom to see who is teaching truth and who is teaching something else.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

For example, WHO is Matthew 24 really pointed at? WHO was Jesus addressing?
 
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Thanks, BaB. All who love the Lord and keep His commandments are brothers and sisters in Christ.
I do not say I know it all by any means, I've made some embarrassing mistakes and am still learning from scripture.

It just becomes somewhat pointless to constantly refute those who are locked into false beliefs.
Take John 14:1-3; constantly touted as a rapture proof. Heaven is not mentioned there and where Jesus will be, is on the earth. Something as important as a removal of living people to heaven has to be better described than that. It isn't, so there isn't a rapture.
Paul's 'rapture' in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is just what is described: a meeting with Jesus in the earths atmosphere, as He resurrects the souls of the martyrs and commences His Millennium reign, in Jerusalem.

I will continue to post the Bible truths, but I believe it won't be for much longer, as the end time events will soon overtake us all.
 
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BABerean2 said in post 6566:

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12:4 will occur in our future (Revelation 4:1b). When it says "his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth", that represents Satan being responsible for his angels being cast to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:9b) after he wages and loses a future, mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9).

That is, Revelation 12:7-9 hasn't happened yet, but is part of the things which must be hereafter (Revelation 4:1b).

Just as what John saw in Revelation 4:2-11 are literal things in heaven, so what he saw in Revelation 12:7-9 is a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven, between Michael and his angels on the one hand, and Satan and his angels on the other, resulting in Satan and his angels being defeated and cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:8-9,12-13).

Revelation 12:7-9 shows that Michael and his angels are more powerful than Satan and his angels. But this doesn't mean that Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into thinking that he and his angels (with the help of a united mankind) will be able to defeat YHWH and his army (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19).

For before Revelation 12:7-9 happens, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say that they are YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind utterly desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when this army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

It is at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of these 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the world's armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will suffer forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

BABerean2 said in post 6566:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude 1:6, like 2 Peter 2:4, refers only to those fallen angels who committed the crime in Genesis 6:2,4 (cf. Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7 for "sons of God" meaning angels).

BABerean2 said in post 6566:

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, and be imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).
 
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iamlamad said in post 6568:

In fact, the very first place saints will be overcome will be Jerusalem and Israel . . .

That's right.

And regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), note that there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. And they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

*******

iamlamad said in post 6569:

Except the Post view requires Revelation to be rearranged.

Actually, it doesn't. For the post-trib view is fully compatible with the (correct) view that Revelation is chronological.

iamlamad said in post 6569:

Posttrib argument is that it is the LAST ONE in the bible.

Actually, the post-trib view in no way requires the (mistaken) idea that the 7th trumpet during the tribulation will be the last trumpet (chronologically) in the Bible. For the rapture trumpet (the "last trump": 1 Corinthians 15:52) will happen afterward, after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

iamlamad said in post 6569:

I find holes in posttrib, such as having to rearrange - such as imagining that Matthew 24 is written for the Gentile church.

Note that there is no such thing as "the Gentile church". For the church includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).
 
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Postvieww

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Thanks, BaB. All who love the Lord and keep His commandments are brothers and sisters in Christ.
I do not say I know it all by any means, I've made some embarrassing mistakes and am still learning from scripture.

It just becomes somewhat pointless to constantly refute those who are locked into false beliefs.
Take John 14:1-3; constantly touted as a rapture proof. Heaven is not mentioned there and where Jesus will be, is on the earth. Something as important as a removal of living people to heaven has to be better described than that. It isn't, so there isn't a rapture.
Paul's 'rapture' in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is just what is described: a meeting with Jesus in the earths atmosphere, as He resurrects the souls of the martyrs and commences His Millennium reign, in Jerusalem.

I will continue to post the Bible truths, but I believe it won't be for much longer, as the end time events will soon overtake us all.


We are constantly admonished that we will be left behind because we do not believe this deception called the “pretrib rapture” but my concern is, what will happen to the faith of those who believed a lie, when they begin to experience unspeakable horrors and persecution.

I am in total agreement with your statement “I believe it won't be for much longer, as the end time events will soon overtake us all”. Amen and God bless.
 
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BABerean2

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You may be right on why some fade away. On the other hand, it may not be pride: it may be wisdom to see who is teaching truth and who is teaching something else.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

For example, WHO is Matthew 24 really pointed at? WHO was Jesus addressing?[/QUOTE]
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Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Four of His closest disciples, who He already knew would be the leaders of His Church.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
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Postvieww

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You may be right on why some fade away. On the other hand, it may not be pride: it may be wisdom to see who is teaching truth and who is teaching something else.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

For example, WHO is Matthew 24 really pointed at? WHO was Jesus addressing?

Lamad said:

For example, WHO is Matthew 24 really pointed at? WHO was Jesus addressing?


Matt 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

1.The disciples were in a private conversation with Jesus.

2. The relevant question to our discussion the disciples asked was “what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

3. While it can be said some of Matthew 24 was directed at the Jewish people ( Matt 24:2) much of it was more general in nature. (Matt. 24:5-8) ( Matt 24:11-14) (Matt24:23-27) ( Matt 24:29-31)

4. The argument that none of Matthew 24 was directed at the future church is not correct or supported by the text. (Matt 24:14 alone is proof of that) Jesus’s words in Mark 13:37 confirm this as well “37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

5. The disciples of Jesus asked the question they were the future beginnings of the church, the end of the age was what they inquired about.

6 Matt 24:29-31 is “the” coming of the Lord, there is no other in scripture for our future.

7. I counted 22 references in the NT to “His coming” “the coming of the Lord” or other like worded phrases, none of them imply more than one future coming, none are in the plural as in comings. That cannot be found in scripture. Even Paul always used the singular.

So Lamad, in answer to your question” WHO is Matthew 24 really pointed at? WHO was Jesus addressing?”

As related to the coming of the Lord and gathering of the elect, Jesus was pointing to and addressing believers in Christ, the future church.

 
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Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Four of His closest disciples, who He already knew would be the leaders of His Church.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
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Bab I didn't see your post until after I put mine up.
 
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