The Second Coming not before 2065?

Psalm3704 said:

You're about as lost as one who doesn't know their right foot from their left. Where do you get such nonsense that Haggai chapter 1 and Haggai 2:10-17 was fulfilled and the rest of the book is future? How do you come off thinking Haggai 2:10-17 is past and 3 verses later in Haggai 2:20-23 it's future?

Do you think God told you this? I think not! The bible don't lie and neither does God. If God gave you any revelation about the book of Haggai, it would be consistent with what's written the bible. How do you know what you heard is not deceptions from the other guy? Everyone can hear from both sides, no one is immune to deception.

I don't even think you've done any homework in the bible to see the differences in the building of the temple mentioned by Ezra and Daniel verses the temple mentioned by Haggai. If you understand both books, you can easily see with a little logic they are clearly two descriptions of two different temples.












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Its quite obvious you're not understanding the book of Haggai. Haggai 1:1 a message comes by the Lord to Haggai and is delivered UNTO Zerubbabel, Joshua and the people. The message to rebuild comes in the 1st day of Elul (late August) in the second year of Darius (Persian) reign. Ezra 4:24 Haggai 1:12-13 the people are obedient and respond. They build the second temple structure, and complete it on the 3rd day of Adar in the 6th year of Darius. Ezra 6:14-15. Do you see Darius's name in Ezra 6:14? Haggai 1 is a message for the past. Because Darius made his ascent to the throne in September (at least history tells us this) it took almost EXACTLY 3.5 years from the time the command was given until the structure was completed.

Are you trying to tell me Haggai 1 is a message for for the future? That it wasn't fulfilled even though Ezra 6:14-15 clearly tells us this WAS fulfilled. Even though Haggai 1:1 clearly states the message came from the Lord to the prophet and was delivered from the prophet UNTO Zerubbabel and Joshua?

Psalm3704 said:

I noticed that about you Dave, you do make quite a bit of mistakes in your view of prophecy. Having no concerns of looking like a dummy to others can cause one to make a lot of mistakes that can easily be avoided by merely reading the bible with a little common sense.

Example below concerning Haggai's prophecy comparing what Haggai said vs Daniel's and Ezra's description on the rebuilding of the temple and Jerusalem.

The second temple that was built was done during troublesome times: Daniel 9:24-25 and confirmed in Ezra 4.

The temple to be built and Jerusalem prophesied by Haggai will be done during a time of prosperity and great blessings upon Jerusalem: Haggai 2:6-9, Haggai 2:15-19.

Daniel 9:24-25 NLT
"A period of seventy sets of seven has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler--the Anointed One--comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times.

Ezra 4:4-5 NLT
Then the local residents tried to discourage and frighten the people of Judah to keep them from their work. They bribed agents to work against them and to frustrate their plans. This went on during the entire reign of King Cyrus of Persia and lasted until King Darius of Persia took the throne.

Ezra 4:12-13 NLT
“The king should know that the Jews who came here to Jerusalem from Babylon are rebuilding this rebellious and evil city. They have already laid the foundation and will soon finish its walls. And the king should know that if this city is rebuilt and its walls are completed, it will be much to your disadvantage, for the Jews will then refuse to pay their tribute, customs, and tolls to you.​

Haggai 2:6-9 NLT
6 “For this is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: In just a little while I will again shake the heavens and the earth, the oceans and the dry land.7 I will shake all the nations, and the treasures of all the nations will be brought to this Temple. I will fill this place with glory, says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. 8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. 9 The future glory of this Temple will be greater than its past glory, says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. And in this place I will bring peace. I, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, have spoken!”

Haggai 2:15-19 NLT
15 Look at what was happening to you before you began to lay the foundation of the Lord’s Temple. 16 When you hoped for a twenty-bushel crop, you harvested only ten. When you expected to draw fifty gallons from the winepress, you found only twenty. 17 I sent blight and mildew and hail to destroy everything you worked so hard to produce. Even so, you refused to return to me, says the Lord.

18 “Think about this eighteenth day of December, the day when the foundation of the Lord’s Temple was laid. Think carefully. 19 I am giving you a promise now while the seed is still in the barn. You have not yet harvested your grain, and your grapevines, fig trees, pomegranates, and olive trees have not yet produced their crops. But from this day onward I will bless you.”​

Dave,

Do you understand what the scriptures above means? One temple and Jerusalem was built against adversity without God's blessings. Nowhere do you find in the book of Ezra a shaking of the heavens and the earth at the time of this temple being built.

The other temple mentioned by Haggai is being built at a time when Jerusalem is in great prosperity. Great wealth from everywhere will be brought into this temple. Shortly after the foundation of this temple is completed, God will shake the heavens and the earth. This is only found in the book of Haggai. Do you understand what this temple is Haggai is prophesying over? It's the 3rd temple, the next temple that will be built and completed in Jerusalem during the first year of the tribulation. Gentiles from everywhere will come help the Israelites complete the Temple, Zechariah 6:15.

Do you know why so many riches from all over the world will be brought into the temple during the first half of the tribulation and what God's purpose is for? Daniel 11:24, Ezekiel 38:12.

Daniel 11:24 NIV
When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses--but only for a time.

Ezekiel 38:12 NLT
I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land."​

And you got it wrong too Dave. The next temple to be built is NOT Ezekiel's Temple. Ezekiel's Temple is the 4th and final temple to be built in the millennium for Christ: Ezekiel 40-47. Ezekiel's temple will be built on Mount Zion and is a huge temple, roughly four times that of Zerubbabel's temple mentioned in Haggai that's to be built on Mount Moriah, the existing location of the temple mount, a relatively small temple, Revelation 11:1-2, Zechariah 2:1-2.

Nope, sure don't!



But if you like crunching numbers, the year the tribulation commences is given in the bible and hidden in numerous scriptures. Falls on the exact same year in the hebrew calendar Haggai mentioned God will bless Jerusalem and shake heaven and earth.

Exodus (end of 1st Exile) = 2448 HC First Exile period = 430 yrs 2448 – 430 = 2018 HC God’s Covenant with Abraham = 2018 HC First Exile Began = 2018 HC End of Exile, Revelation of the Light of the Creator and Divine Peace = 5778 HC 5778 ‐ 2448 = 3330 yrs Jubilee yr = 50 yrs 3330/50 = 66.6 2448/5778 = .424 424 = numerical value of 7 Mashiach Ben David, the Messiah. 3330 + 430 = 3760 3760 – 430 = 3330 5778 (HC) = 2018 CE 5778 ‐ 2018 = 3760 3760 (HC) = "0" CE 3760 = 10 x 376 376 = numerical value of Esau

The First Temple was destroyed in 3338 HC. 3338 = 422 BCE The Second Temple was built in 352 BCE. The Second Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. 352 BCE to 70 CE = 422 years. The numerical value of the word for 70 in Hebrew (שבעים) is 422. King David lived for 70 years. Israeli Statehood in 5708 HC End of Exile, Divine Peace year 5778 HC 5778 – 5708 = 70 years

Abraham born in 1948 HC Israeli Statehood in 1948 CE God’s Covenant with Abraham = 2018 HC 2018 – 1948 = 70 years from Abraham’s birth to Covenant with G‐d 2018 – 1948 = 70 years from Israeli Statehood to Messiah End of Exile, Divine Peace year = 2018 CE

The First Temple stood for 410 Years. The Second Temple stood for 422 Years. The total both Temples stood = 410 + 422 = 832 Years. The First Temple was constructed in 2928 HC. 3760 (HC) = "0" CE 3760 ‐ 2928 = 832 Years 2928 HC = 832 BCE Flood Occurred = 1656 HC Moses Died = 2488 HC 2488 – 1656 = 832 years The Final Redemption= 5778 5778 HC = 2018 CE Covenant of Abraham = 2018 HC 5778 – 2018 = 3760 3760 – 832 = 2928 years of exile from the Temples 5778 – 832 = 4946 4946 – 2928 = 2018 √4946 = 70.32 832/26 = 32 26 = Value of The Tetragrammaton 26 x 32 = 832 Letters in the Tetragrammaton = 4 The # of the letter “ד” Dalets in the Torah = 7032 The letter Dalet = 4 The number of exiles = 4 The Nations of current exile = 70









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What?
The second temple was completed in either 516 or 515 BC. It was Darius the Mede who overthrew Babylon and Nebudcadnezars grandson Belshazzar. The Medes made a dam in the Euprathes and waded through the moat (which was fed by the Euprathes) under the wall to overtake Babylon. Daniel 5:25-31. After this, Babylon is taken over by the media Persian empire, and Darius the Mede, is king.
Daniel 6:28 after Darius the Mede comes Cyrus the Persian. He issues the decree to rebuild the temple in 538 BC. Ezra 1:1-2 Foundation is laid in his second year. 536 BC. Darius the Persian becomes king in September of 522 or 521 BC. in his 2nd year when they begin rebuilding the temple structure. 520 Or 519 BC. Haggai 1:1 Haggai 1:14-15 and they complete it in his 6th year Ezra 6:14-15 516 or 515 BC depending on exact year he ascended to the throne.
Are you trying to rewrite history as well?

Psalm3704 said:

You're about as lost as one who doesn't know their right foot from their left. Where do you get such nonsense that Haggai chapter 1 and Haggai 2:10-17 was fulfilled and the rest of the book is future? How do you come off thinking Haggai 2:10-17 is past and 3 verses later in Haggai 2:20-23 it's future?

Do you think God told you this? I think not! The bible don't lie and neither does God. If God gave you any revelation about the book of Haggai, it would be consistent with what's written the bible. How do you know what you heard is not deceptions from the other guy? Everyone can hear from both sides, no one is immune to deception.

I don't even think you've done any homework in the bible to see the differences in the building of the temple mentioned by Ezra and Daniel verses the temple mentioned by Haggai. If you understand both books, you can easily see with a little logic they are clearly two descriptions of two different temples.












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Please, allow me to refresh your memory on the history after and during the exile. As the bible states earlier in Daniel 5:25-31 the Babylonian empire was overthrown and divided between the Medes and the Persians. Darius the Mede was ruler over that area. Cyrus the Persian gained control over the empire after an attack from the Medes failed. When he came to power he issued a decree to rebuild the temple, 538 BC. Every exile made a Begining by appointing Levites of 20 years and older to oversee the work. Ezra 3:8 this was In the second year of the return of the exiles 536 BC then Jeshua Kadmiel and others (NOT ZERUBBABEL) oversaw the work. Ezra 3:9 the foundation was laid by the builders and sheshbazzar Ezra 3:10 Ezra 5:16 in 536 BC. The second year of Cyrus. After that they faced opposition and accomplished very little until the end of Cyrus's reign and throughout all of cambyus reign. Then with the urging of prophetes Haggai and Zechariah began the work in the second year of Darius. One of the urgings of Haggai is Haggai 1. Temple was completed in 6th year of Darius. Ezra 6:14-15. Do you see Now Ezra 6:15 jumps ahead several years when it mentions Artexerxes. Because after Darius came Xerxes or Ahasuerus who was Esther's husband Esther 1:1. We are not told anything favorable happened for the Jews during that time relating to the rebuilding of the city or the wall. Of course they were saved from HAmans plot and Purim is celebrated yearly.


After Xerxes or Ahasuerus, came Artexerxes who was king during the time Nehemiah came to Jerusalem. During his reign the wall was completed. However, Nehemiah starts out with Jerusalem under siege. Nehemiah 1:1-4. Nehemiah is not upset about the Babylonian captivity, that occurred some 200 or so years ago. He is upset about the events including but not limited to Ezra 4:23 which caused much affliction for the Jews in Jerusalem.


Ezra 4:4-7 describes the 4 of the 6 Kings of Persia throughout the rebuilding of the foundation to the temple structure to the building of the wall. To recap, they had success during the reign of Cyrus by building the foundation. During the reign of Darius the Persian by completing the temple structure. During Artexerxes by completing the wall. Just as Ezra 6:14 states. They did not succeed in building during the reign of Cambyus (after Cyrus and before Darius). Also they did not succeed in building during the time of Xerxes or Ahasuerus (who was after Darius and before Artexerxes.

Again, the list of kings after Babylon was overthrown Darius the Mede, Cyrus the Persian, Cambyus,
Bardya (imposter King) Darius the Persian, Xerxes or Ahasuerus and Artexerxes.

ROFL!!!.....6 posts, 6 posts, 6 posts!!!

You're a pretty easy guy to pi$$ off. Apparently it doesn't take much to get you bent out of shape like a pretzel. It doesn't matter if you can write 6 pages of nonsense or 60 pages of nonsense. Nonsense is nonsense, and it carries absolutely no weight and merits no credibility except in the mind of the individual with no sense.

Fusion77 said:

Its quite obvious you're not understanding the book of Haggai. Haggai 1:1 a message comes by the Lord to Haggai and is delivered UNTO Zerubbabel, Joshua and the people.

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Really? Let's have a look at Haggai and see if you have any knowledge of this prophecy yourself.

Case and point below.

You actually think a verse or chapter implies prophecy of the past by observing a person's name or the ancient name of a city or country, and any verses or chapters with it is still future. Because Darius' name is mentioned, to you this implies the past, prophecy fulfilled.

Fusion77 said:

The way to tell if a message is past or future is if Darius's name is in the message as a timeline. If his name is there, it's for the past. If it isn't, it's a message for the future. Example Haggai 1:1 Haggai 1:15 Haggai 2:10 notice how Darius's name is in the message, as a timeline. We know these are messages for the past. But, look at Haggai 2:1 Haggai 2:20. Darius's name is NOT in the message, which signifies this message is for the future. We know date that these messages will be spoken, but the year isn't mentioned. I'm telling you that Haggai 2:20 has been spoken on the 24th day of the 9th month 2015 our year. That's all I know, I don't know the exact date this war will occur though.

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Fusion77 said:

First of all we know Haggai 2:10-17 is past because we see a dialogue. He asks the priests about the law and they answer. The message is given to Haggai and he delivers it to the priests. Then the Lord points out to them their grim past, and present.

In Haggai 2:18-19 we see a day/date mentioned without Darius's name, that brings it to the future.

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Fusion77 said:

Haggai 2:20-23 again, a day or date mentioned and Darius's name not there. Message for the future (from that time) an unfulfilled event.

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Fusion77 said:

Haggai 2:1-9 Darius's name not there. It's Future.

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Are all prophecies fulfilled in the entire bible if a person's name from the past is mentioned?

Case and point: In Jeremiah 25, King Nebuchadnezzar's name is mentioned twice: Jeremiah 25:1, Jeremiah 25:9. You must think Jeremiah's prophecy of God's judgement on the world: Jeremiah 25:1-32 was already fulfilled 2600 years ago.

And If all the verses or chapters in the book of Genesis does not mention the names Adam, Abraham or Moses does that make those verses or chapters in Genesis a future prophecy? Sounds like this is what you're thinking.

You have one serious faulty logic here and a lack of understanding prophecy. If your theory can actually hold water, 95% plus of all the prophecies in the old testament would have been fulfilled already.

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Now we see from the quote below you think Haggai 2:20-23 is future.

Fusion77 said:

I would warn that a Great War is coming soon. That the Lord is about to shake the heavens and the earth, as stated in Haggai 2:20-23. I feel like I should give warning beforehand. We should all know that this is yet an unfulfilled prophecy, as God has not yet shaken both the heavens and the earth. We know this from Hebrews 12:26-27.

I believe with a certainty of about 99% that this message has gone forth on the 24th day of the 9th month (Kislev) in our year 2015, which was the first day of Chanukah, which is the first day of the feast of dedication, which was on 12/06/2015.

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Now let's use "your logic and theory" on how to interpret prophecy with Haggai 2:20-23. You claim a person's name in the verse or chapter would imply the past.

You've been telling everyone in several threads on this forum Haggai 2:20-23 is the near future. Yet if you look carefully, Zerubbabel's name appears in verse 21. Zerubbabel lived at the time of Haggai.....way in the past.



Did you catch that? I'll say it again, "ZERUBBABEL'S NAME IS MENTIONED IN VERSE 21!"

So is Haggai 2:20-23 future or past? Seems like your theory fell flat on your face. And you're telling me I don't understand the book of Haggai? Well I think Haggai just destroyed your gobbledygook eschatology with verse 21. And I don't need to vent my frustration writing 6 pages to get my point across. It's quality over quantity.












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Fusion77 said:

There is a war coming soon. The exact description of the war can be found in scripture. Haggai 2:20-23 describes the war. This is an unfulfilled event. As of 520 BC up until 50 AD God had not shaken both the heavens and the earth. We know this from Hebrews 12:25-27. This message in Haggai has gone forth on the 24th day of the 9th month our year 2015...the day and month according to the Hebrew calendar.

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Again, wrong year Kemosabe! You're still pulling those verses (Haggai 2:20-23) out of it's context using it to promote your own speculation, while ignoring what Haggai clearly stated two verses above in verse 18 that on the 24th day of 9th month, the foundation of the temple has been completed.


Get this through your head. "No construction on the 3rd temple has begun yet in Jerusalem!" Haggai never mentioned the year in his prophecy, just the day and month. You're filling in the blank with your own year speculating it as 2015.

If this prophecy was recently fulfilled, you would see construction of the temple in Jerusalem right now. Get it through your head, nothing has started yet. The year is not given in the book of Haggai, it's elsewhere in the bible and it does NOT point to 2015. Check and see if you can find people building a temple on the temple mount at this time. Haggai said the shaking of heaven and earth, Haggai 2:18-23 will happen shortly after the foundation of the temple is completed, Haggai 2:18-23.

Fusion77 said:

It is described as a war that will shake both the heavens and the earth. That will overthrow royal thrones and where brother will go down by the sword of his brother. It seems possible that it could be a war of Muslim nations against one another.

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No it's not a war, it's God's judgement upon the earth.

In case you're under a rock, Muslim countries won't be fighting each other this year. They're too busy in a huge coalition of 34 Arab nations and a global alliance of 64 countries from around the world fighting ISIS. Right now, ISIS is the most hated entity by majority of Muslim countries in the Middle East. They hate ISIS more than Israel and America.

The Muslims are currently allies with each other as they're fighting ISIS together with the rest of the world. They're not gonna fight each other now unless ISIS is destroyed first. Stop speculating with Mickey Mouse theories, read the bible and study what's happening in the Middle East. Go check and see if you can find people building a temple in Jerusalem at this time. If you don't see workers there and a new foundation laid out, stop preaching gobbledygook eschatology.

Muslim nations form coalition to fight terror, call Islamic extremism 'disease'
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/14/middleeast/islamic-coalition-isis-saudi-arabia/

Who is in the anti-Islamic State coalition and what they are contributing?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...coalition-and-what-they-are-contributing.html

What the 60-plus members of the anti-Islamic State coalition are doing
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...f-the-anti-islamic-state-coalition-are-doing/






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Psalm3704 said:

ROFL!!!.....6 posts, 6 posts, 6 posts!!!

You're a pretty easy guy to pi$$ off. Apparently it doesn't take much to get you bent out of shape like a pretzel. It doesn't matter if you can write 6 pages of nonsense or 60 pages of nonsense. Nonsense is nonsense, and it carries absolutely no weight and merits no credibility except in the mind of the individual with no sense.



Really? Let's have a look at Haggai and see if you have any knowledge of this prophecy yourself.

Case and point below.

You actually think a verse or chapter implies prophecy of the past by observing a person's name or the ancient name of a city or country, and any verses or chapters with it is still future. Because Darius' name is mentioned, to you this implies the past, prophecy fulfilled.

The way to tell if a message is past or future is if Darius's name is in the message as a timeline. If his name is there, it's for the past. If it isn't, it's a message for the future. Example Haggai 1:1 Haggai 1:15 Haggai 2:10 notice how Darius's name is in the message, as a timeline. We know these are messages for the past. But, look at Haggai 2:1 Haggai 2:20. Darius's name is NOT in the message, which signifies this message is for the future. ​

In Haggai 2:18-19 we see a day/date mentioned without Darius's name, that brings it to the future.​

Haggai 2:20-23 again, a day or date mentioned and Darius's name not there. Message for the future ​

Haggai 2:1-9 Darius's name not there. It's Future.​

Are all prophecies fulfilled in the entire bible if a person's name from the past is mentioned?

Case and point: In Jeremiah 25, King Nebuchadnezzar's name is mentioned twice: Jeremiah 25:1, Jeremiah 25:9. You must think Jeremiah's prophecy of God's judgement on the world: Jeremiah 25:1-32 was already fulfilled 2600 years ago.

And If all the verses or chapters in the book of Genesis does not mention the names Adam, Abraham or Moses does that make those verses or chapters in Genesis a future prophecy? Sounds like this is what you're thinking.

You have one serious faulty logic here and a lack of understanding prophecy. If your theory can actually hold water, 95% plus of all the prophecies in the old testament would have been fulfilled already.

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Now we see from the quote below you think Haggai 2:20-23 is future.

I would warn that a Great War is coming soon. That the Lord is about to shake the heavens and the earth, as stated in Haggai 2:20-23.

I believe with a certainty of about 99% that this message has gone forth on the 24th day of the 9th month (Kislev) in our year 2015, which was the first day of Chanukah, which is the first day of the feast of dedication, which was on 12/06/2015.​

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Now let's use "your logic and theory" on how to interpret prophecy with Haggai 2:20-23. You claim a person's name in the verse or chapter would imply the past.

You've been telling everyone in several threads on this forum Haggai 2:20-23 is the near future. Yet if you look carefully, Zerubbabel's name appears in verse 21. Zerubbabel lived at the time of Haggai.....way in the past.

Haggai 2:20-23 KJV
20 And again the word of the Lord came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying,
21 Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth;
22 And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.​

Did you catch that? I'll say it again, "ZERUBBABEL'S NAME IS MENTIONED IN VERSE 21!"

So is Haggai 2:20-23 future or past? Seems like your theory fell flat on your face. And you're telling me I don't understand the book of Haggai? Well I think Haggai just destroyed your gobbledygook eschatology with verse 21. And I don't need to vent my frustration writing 6 pages to get my point across. It's quality over quantity.












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ITS ONLY DARIUS NAME IN THE BOOK OF HAGGAI. I've NEVER said anything about Nebuchadnezzar or Zerubbabel in this respect. Only Darius, and only in the book of Haggai...if I failed to specifically mention the book of Haggai, when I was only talking about the book of Haggai, a slight oversight. If QUALITY is FALSIFYING what I said I better watch out for you. I've stated before, Zerubbabel is one of the 2 witnesses in Haggai 2 and Zechariah 4. If Darius's name is in the message (in Haggai) it's a message for the past, if not its future. Only in Haggai, that I know of. If twisting words is the only way you can debate, maybe you should consider a different approach. I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE EXCEPT DARIUS NAME signifying the message is the past...and only in THE BOOK OF HAGGAI. I may have forgotten to specify this only applies in the book of Haggai, but was never referring to any other book when I was mentioning this information.

Don't worry I'm not upset. I just like to see truth prevail immediately. Which is will soon.

I can see you don't like to answer questions. But I'll ask again. Are you saying Haggai 1 is not a message for the past?

Of course, as I know for fact Zerubbabel is one of the 2 witnesses in Zechariah 4 and Haggai 2. Haggai 2:20-23 is a message to 1 or the 2 witnesses. After this shaking Haggai 2:23 he will be made as Gods signet. This denotes power and authority to speak, or witness on behalf of Christ. Revelation 11:3.


Do you think Zechariah 4 has anything to do with the Zerubbabel of that age? NOPE! It's all a message to 1 of the 2 witnesses.

Do you think Zechariah 4:2-3 has anything to do with the Zerubbabel of that age? NOPE! Those items are Gods message to one of the 2 witnesses! Those items in Zechariah 4:2-3 = "not by might, nor by power but by My Spirit saith the Lord of hosts, and it's directed to Zerubbabel. Zechariah 4:6 Those items which are all about the 2 witnesses, are Gods message to Zerubbabel...who is a symbol of 1 of the witnesses. Just like Zechariah 3:8 says. THY FRIENDS THAT SiT BEFORE YOU ARE A SYMBOL.

Do you think Zechariah 4:9 is speaking of laying the foundation of the second temple? NOPE! ZERUBBABEL DID NOT lay the foundation of the second temple! Ezra 3:10 Ezra 5:16 as a matter of fact he was the only one on the chief fathers who DID NOT even supervise the building. Ezra 3:9 why isn't Zerubbabel mentioned? Because he DID NOT lay the foundation of the second temple Zechariah 4 has nothing to do with the Zerubbabel of that age.


Tell me, why is the word for foundation in Zechariah 4:9 derived from a feminine noun in the Hebrew? Yesudah H3248 one other occurrence. Psalms 87:1. Zechariah 3:8 says the friends who sit before Joshua are a symbol (of things to come)...then 3 verses later you have Zechariah 4 and ZERRUBBABEL A SYMBOL OF THE WITNESS.

If for 2500 years nobody has known this, do you think maybe I've heard from the Lord? For centuries theological experts have been trying to explain how Zerubbabel laid the foundation of the second temple, when Ezra the SCRIBE is REAL CLEAR HE DID NOT. Ezra 3:10 and Ezra 5:16. Zechariah 4:7-10 IS NOT speaking of physical work. you can't get an action out of a noun! Yesudah is a feminine NOUN! Look it up on bible hub. Zerubbabel is the name that the Lord calls this man. Reference is made to him in Zechariah 4 and Haggai 2.

Oh, and what do you mean Haggai 2:22 doesn't describe a war. The end of 2:22 states "and the horses and their riders will go down, everyone by the sword of his brother". First of all kingdoms are overthrown, chariots and their riders go down and the horses and their riders will go down by the sword of his brother. A KINGDOM OVERTHROWN, CHARIOTS GOING DOWN AND PEOPLE FALLING BY THE SWORD OF THEIR BROTHER...THATS A MAJOR BATTLE OR A NUCLEAR WAR.

Psalm3704 said:

Was that how you determined the starting year of the tribulation being 2015 by observing the "first day of Chanukah, which is the feast of dedication. The first day of Chanukah was at sundown on 12/06/2015?"

I'm telling you, 2015 is not the right year. The year is given in the bible and it doesn't point to 2015. You have the right Jewish month and day: 24th day of Kislev, but the year is off based on numerous scriptures from the bible.

You have to look and take into consideration what it said in Haggai 2:18, the foundation of the temple is completed before God announced He'll shakes heaven and earth in Haggai 2:21. And construction of the foundation begins three months prior, Haggai 1:14-15. Currently the construction of a 3rd temple in Jerusalem hasn't started yet. There's nothing there except the dome of the rock. So it's impossible this prophecy implies 2015. Do you understand what I'm telling you here?

Of course Hebrews 12:25-27 hasn't happened yet. Hebrews 12 is about the rapture of the church which is still future, Hebrews 12:22-24.



The book of Haggai is not historic, it's a complete prophetic book in both chapters. The old testament is broken down into two main categories: a historic book from Genesis to Esther. From the book of Isaiah to Malachi, it's all prophecy about Christ's first and second coming. Basically the prophecies are all events surrounding God and His coming as the Messiah. If you want the historic records of Cyrus, it's located in the book of Ezra. When prophets write their prophecies, they generally use the names of individual leaders and cities located in their time to depict the future. Example: When Isaiah writes prophecies about Persia, Elam or Media, he's prophesying the people and the place of modern day Iran using the ancient names in his generation.











.









.

Click to expand...

Psalm3704 said,
--------------------------------------------------------The book of Haggai is not historic, it's a complete prophetic book in both chapters. The old testament is broken down into two main categories: a historic book from Genesis to Esther. From the book of Isaiah to Malachi, it's all prophecy about Christ's first and second coming. Basically the prophecies are all events surrounding God and His coming as the Messiah. If you want the historic records of Cyrus, it's located in the book of Ezra. When prophets write their prophecies, they generally use the names of individual leaders and cities located in their time to depict the future. Example: When Isaiah writes prophecies about Persia, Elam or Media, he's prophesying the people and the place of modern day Iran using the ancient names in his generation--------------------------------------

The bible says,
Wrong!

This is incorrect in the book of Haggai. There are messages for the future and past. I'll start with Haggai 1. It is historic. By your own words you say to look to Ezra. Ok. Ezra 4:24 in the second year of Darius they resumed work on the temple structure. Who did? Ezra 5:1-2 Zerubbabel, Jeshua and the people. Encouraged by HAGGAI. Haggai 1:14-15 in the second year of Darius just like Ezra 4:24 stated the work began the second year of Darius. AND AGAIN in Haggai 1:14-15 the people began to rebuild the temple structure in the SECOND YEAR OF DARIUS. the second temple was finished in the sixth year of Darius Ezra 6:14-15 with the urging of the prophets HAGGAI and ZECHARIAH.


So you're telling me Ishould disregard the bible? And that Haggai 1 is not history! Well the bible is VERY CLEAR Haggai 1 is history. Hmm? I think I'll listen to the bible here and forever!




.

.[/QUOTE]

Fusion77 said:

Psalm3704 said,
--------------------------------------------------------The book of Haggai is not historic, it's a complete prophetic book in both chapters. The old testament is broken down into two main categories: a historic book from Genesis to Esther. From the book of Isaiah to Malachi, it's all prophecy about Christ's first and second coming. Basically the prophecies are all events surrounding God and His coming as the Messiah. If you want the historic records of Cyrus, it's located in the book of Ezra. When prophets write their prophecies, they generally use the names of individual leaders and cities located in their time to depict the future. Example: When Isaiah writes prophecies about Persia, Elam or Media, he's prophesying the people and the place of modern day Iran using the ancient names in his generation--------------------------------------

The bible says,
Wrong!

This is incorrect in the book of Haggai. There are messages for the future and past. I'll start with Haggai 1. It is historic. By your own words you say to look to Ezra. Ok. Ezra 4:24 in the second year of Darius they resumed work on the temple structure. Who did? Ezra 5:1-2 Zerubbabel, Jeshua and the people. Encouraged by HAGGAI. Haggai 1:14-15 in the second year of Darius just like Ezra 4:24 stated the work began the second year of Darius. AND AGAIN in Haggai 1:14-15 the people began to rebuild the temple structure in the SECOND YEAR OF DARIUS. the second temple was finished in the sixth year of Darius Ezra 6:14-15 with the urging of the prophets HAGGAI and ZECHARIAH.


So you're telling me Ishould disregard the bible? And that Haggai 1 is not history! Well the bible is VERY CLEAR Haggai 1 is history. Hmm? I think I'll listen to the bible here and forever!

Click to expand...

God called Haggai and Zechariah to be prophets. The books of Haggai and Zechariah are prophecies about the future 3rd temple. God did NOT call Ezra and Nehemiah to be prophets. Their job was to document what was happening in the construction of the 2nd temple.



God did NOT call Ezra and Nehemiah to be prophets. The books of Ezra and Nehemiah are historic books documenting the events of the past during the building of the second temple.

You need to get a good bible that can reveal this to you since you have a hard time believing anything I tell you. It'll tell you who the prophets are.
**************************

You're just not getting it. The foundation has to be built first before any shaking can happen. In Haggai 2:18-20, he said on the same day the foundation was completed, Haggai received from the Lord He will shake heaven and earth.

Haggai 2:18-22 GNT
18 Today is the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month, the day that the foundation of the Temple has been completed. See what is going to happen from now on. 19 Although there is no grain left, and the grapevines, fig trees, pomegranates, and olive trees have not yet produced, yet from now on I will bless you.”
20 On that same day, the twenty-fourth of the month, the Lord gave Haggai a second message 21 for Zerubbabel, the governor of Judah: “I am about to shake heaven and earth 22 and overthrow kingdoms and end their power. I will overturn chariots and their drivers; the horses will die, and their riders will kill one another.

Get this through your head. "No construction on the 3rd temple has begun yet in Jerusalem!"

This is what the temple mount currently looks like in this video. There's no worker there building the foundation.
*****************************************
When you see this happening in Jerusalem, than the shaking of heaven and earth is around the corner. This will be all over the news!

When you see this happening, you'll know Daniel's 70th week is near. When you see this happening, you'll know the rapture is near.

This is one of the final prophecy before it all happens. You can NOT have the tribulation without the temple.


Your problem with this prophecy is you've commingled the messages in a prophetic book: Haggai with records from an historic book: Ezra. You've also added messages from Zechariah and records from Nehemiah into the picture trying to combine all four writers to form one speculative conclusion based on two different events.

If you read about the construction of the temple in Ezra and Nehemiah first, than compare the construction of temple prophesied by Haggai and Zechariah, it's 110% clear they are not describing the same temple.


.
Different Events in the building of each Temple:

a) Books of 2 Chronicles to Ezra to Nehemiah (documentation on the historic rebuilding of the 2nd Temple).
b) Books of Haggai to Zechariah (prophecy on the rebuilding of the 3rd temple).

a) God called King Cyrus (2 Chronicles 36:21-23) to issue a decree for the return of the Jewish back to the holy land and to start construction of Jerusalem and the temple.
b) God calls Haggai to tell the people in Jerusalem and explain to them why their land isn't blessed (Haggai 1:3-6, Haggai 1:9-11), and to start rebuilding the temple. (Haggai 1:7-8, Haggai).

a) King Cyrus issued a decree for the Jews to return and begin rebuilding Jerusalem and the temple. (Ezra 1:1-4).
b) Haggai issues God message to the people. (Haggai 1:12-13).

a) Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed and became an empty city for 70 years when the captives returned. (2 Chronicles 36:19-21).
b) Jerusalem is occupied with people living in nice homes, producing crops and working. People are already there. (Haggai 1:3-6, Haggai 1:9-10).

a) Tribes of Judah and Benjamin returns to the holy land to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple (Ezra 1:5). The other 10 tribes does not return.
b) Jerusalem is already occupied before the construction of the temple. (Haggai 1:3-6, Haggai 1:9-10)

a) Construction of the temple began immediately after the return of the captives from Babylon after 70 years. (Ezra 3:6-8, 2 Chronicles 36:21).
b) Construction of the temple delay for 70 years after the Jews return to Israel. (Zechariah 1:12, Zechariah 7:5, Daniel 9:2).

a) Foundation of the 2nd temple completed. (Ezra 3:10).
b) Foundation of the 3rd temple completed. (Haggai 2:18).

a) God did not promise great blessings and prosperity for the construction of the 2nd temple when the foundation was completed. (Nothing found in 2 Chronicles, Ezra or Nehemiah).
b) God promised great blessings and prosperity for the construction of the 3rd temple when the foundation is completed. (Haggai 2:18-19).

a) Construction of the 2nd temple ran into problems and adversity. (Ezra 4-5) The prophet Daniel also revealed the 2nd temple and Jerusalem will be rebuilt during troublesome times. (Daniel 9:25).
b) Construction of the 3rd temple will be built with no problems and with aid from people all over the world. (Zechariah 6:15)

a) Construction of Jerusalem also ran into problems and adversity and a wall constructed to protect the city. (Nehemiah 2:19-6:14). The prophet Daniel also revealed the 2nd temple and Jerusalem will be rebuilt during troublesome times. (Daniel 9:25). Jerusalem is a city with walls!
b) Jerusalem not in ruins. Jerusalem expands with prosperity without a wall surrounding the city. (Zechariah 2:4-5). Read this again! Jerusalem is a city without walls! (Zechariah 2:4-5). It's also mentioned in Ezekiel's prophecy of future Jerusalem. (Ezekiel 38:11).

a) God does not return to Jerusalem. Nothing found in Ezra to Nehemiah.
b) God returns to Jerusalem and blesses everything. (Zechariah 1:16-17, Zechariah 8:1-23). Church is gone and God focuses His attention once again to Israel. Daniel's 70th week begins.

a) Only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin returned to Jerusalem during the time of the 2nd temple. (Ezra 1:5).
b) The House of Judah is seen together with the House of Israel. All the tribes of Jacob is back in the holy land. (Zechariah 8:13, Zechariah 10).

a) God never mentioned the shaking of heaven and earth in Ezra to Nehemiah.
b) God promised to shake heaven and earth. (Haggai 2:6, Haggai 2:21-22)

a) The two witnesses are not seen anywhere in Ezra and Nehemiah after the foundation was completed.
b) The two witnesses are revealed in Zechariah 4:12-14.

a) No mentioning of the Lord's return anywhere in Ezra and Nehemiah.
b) Christ returns in Zechariah 14:4-5.


They're obviously different books describing the building of two separate temples during different timeline.









.

Fusion77 said:

I've stated before, Zerubbabel is one of the 2 witnesses in Haggai 2 and Zechariah 4.

Of course, as I know for fact Zerubbabel is one of the 2 witnesses in Zechariah 4 and Haggai 2. Haggai 2:20-23 is a message to 1 or the 2 witnesses. After this shaking Haggai 2:23 he will be made as Gods signet. This denotes power and authority to speak, or witness on behalf of Christ. Revelation 11:3.

Do you think Zechariah 4 has anything to do with the Zerubbabel of that age? NOPE! It's all a message to 1 of the 2 witnesses.

Click to expand...

Zerubbabel is NOT one of the two witnesses! Most people think they are Elijah and Moses, some think it's Elijah and Enoch and a few think it's Elijah and John the Baptist. You're probably the only person in the world who think Zerubbabel is one of the witness. And it's wrong because you're misreading Zechariah 4.

You're obviously ignoring or don't know the other scriptures that describe who they are.

Fusion77 said:

I can see you don't like to answer questions. But I'll ask again. Are you saying Haggai 1 is not a message for the past?

Click to expand...

Why do you need to keep asking this question when I already told you in post #66, and you even quoted what I wrote me in post #87? You already have the answer.

Are you hard in the cranial or just hard comprehending what I wrote?

Fusion77 said:

Do you think Zechariah 4:2-3 has anything to do with the Zerubbabel of that age? NOPE! Those items are Gods message to one of the 2 witnesses! Those items in Zechariah 4:2-3 = "not by might, nor by power but by My Spirit saith the Lord of hosts, and it's directed to Zerubbabel. Zechariah 4:6 Those items which are all about the 2 witnesses, are Gods message to Zerubbabel...who is a symbol of 1 of the witnesses. Just like Zechariah 3:8 says. THY FRIENDS THAT SiT BEFORE YOU ARE A SYMBOL.

Do you think Zechariah 4:9 is speaking of laying the foundation of the second temple? NOPE! ZERUBBABEL DID NOT lay the foundation of the second temple! Ezra 3:10 Ezra 5:16 as a matter of fact he was the only one on the chief fathers who DID NOT even supervise the building. Ezra 3:9 why isn't Zerubbabel mentioned? Because he DID NOT lay the foundation of the second temple Zechariah 4 has nothing to do with the Zerubbabel of that age.

Click to expand...

You're in serious violation of the 9th Commandment here and it'll get you into trouble when Christ returns to judge the world. This isn't the first time you falsely accused me of saying or thinking things I've never even hinted. In fact, I said the opposite, and as you already quoted me in post#87, I said:


And if you don't know what the 9th Commandment is,
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_bear_false_witness_against_thy_neighbour








.

Psalm3704 said:

God called Haggai and Zechariah to be prophets. The books of Haggai and Zechariah are prophecies about the future 3rd temple. God did NOT call Ezra and Nehemiah to be prophets. Their job was to document what was happening in the construction of the 2nd temple.

Haggai (/ˈhæɡaɪ/; Hebrew: חַגַּי‎, Ḥaggay or Hag-i, Koine Greek: Ἀγγαῖος; Latin: Aggaeus) was a Hebrew prophet during the building of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, and one of the twelve minor prophets in the Hebrew Bible and the author of the Book of Haggai.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haggai​

Zechariah (/zɛkəˈraɪ.ə/; Hebrew: זְכַרְיָה, Modern Zekharya, Tiberian Zəḵaryā, "YHWH has remembered"; Arabic: زكريّا‎ Zakariya' or Zakkariya; Greek: Ζαχαρίας Zakharias; Latin: Zacharias) was a person in the Hebrew Bible and traditionally considered the author of the Book of Zechariah, the eleventh of the Twelve Minor Prophets. He was a prophet of the two-tribe Kingdom of Judah, and, like the prophet Ezekiel, was of priestly extraction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zechariah_(Hebrew_prophet)​

God did NOT call Ezra and Nehemiah to be prophets. The books of Ezra and Nehemiah are historic books documenting the events of the past during the building of the second temple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehemiah​

You need to get a good bible that can reveal this to you since you have a hard time believing anything I tell you. It'll tell you who the prophets are.
**************************

You're just not getting it. The foundation has to be built first before any shaking can happen. In Haggai 2:18-20, he said on the same day the foundation was completed, Haggai received from the Lord He will shake heaven and earth.

Haggai 2:18-22 GNT
18 Today is the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month, the day that the foundation of the Temple has been completed. See what is going to happen from now on. 19 Although there is no grain left, and the grapevines, fig trees, pomegranates, and olive trees have not yet produced, yet from now on I will bless you.”
20 On that same day, the twenty-fourth of the month, the Lord gave Haggai a second message 21 for Zerubbabel, the governor of Judah: “I am about to shake heaven and earth 22 and overthrow kingdoms and end their power. I will overturn chariots and their drivers; the horses will die, and their riders will kill one another.

Get this through your head. "No construction on the 3rd temple has begun yet in Jerusalem!"

This is what the temple mount currently looks like in this video. There's no worker there building the foundation.

*****************************************
When you see this happening in Jerusalem, than the shaking of heaven and earth is around the corner. This will be all over the news!

When you see this happening, you'll know Daniel's 70th week is near. When you see this happening, you'll know the rapture is near.

This is one of the final prophecy before it all happens. You can NOT have the tribulation without the temple.

Your problem with this prophecy is you've commingled the messages in a prophetic book: Haggai with records from an historic book: Ezra. You've also added messages from Zechariah and records from Nehemiah into the picture trying to combine all four writers to form one speculative conclusion based on two different events.

If you read about the construction of the temple in Ezra and Nehemiah first, than compare the construction of temple prophesied by Haggai and Zechariah, it's 110% clear they are not describing the same temple.


.
Different Events in the building of each Temple:

a) Books of 2 Chronicles to Ezra to Nehemiah (documentation on the historic rebuilding of the 2nd Temple).
b) Books of Haggai to Zechariah (prophecy on the rebuilding of the 3rd temple).

a) God called King Cyrus (2 Chronicles 36:21-23) to issue a decree for the return of the Jewish back to the holy land and to start construction of Jerusalem and the temple.
b) God calls Haggai to tell the people in Jerusalem and explain to them why their land isn't blessed (Haggai 1:3-6, Haggai 1:9-11), and to start rebuilding the temple. (Haggai 1:7-8, Haggai).

a) King Cyrus issued a decree for the Jews to return and begin rebuilding Jerusalem and the temple. (Ezra 1:1-4).
b) Haggai issues God message to the people. (Haggai 1:12-13).

a) Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed and became an empty city for 70 years when the captives returned. (2 Chronicles 36:19-21).
b) Jerusalem is occupied with people living in nice homes, producing crops and working. People are already there. (Haggai 1:3-6, Haggai 1:9-10).

a) Tribes of Judah and Benjamin returns to the holy land to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple (Ezra 1:5). The other 10 tribes does not return.
b) Jerusalem is already occupied before the construction of the temple. (Haggai 1:3-6, Haggai 1:9-10)

a) Construction of the temple began immediately after the return of the captives from Babylon after 70 years. (Ezra 3:6-8, 2 Chronicles 36:21).
b) Construction of the temple delay for 70 years after the Jews return to Israel. (Zechariah 1:12, Zechariah 7:5, Daniel 9:2).

a) Foundation of the 2nd temple completed. (Ezra 3:10).
b) Foundation of the 3rd temple completed. (Haggai 2:18).

a) God did not promise great blessings and prosperity for the construction of the 2nd temple when the foundation was completed. (Nothing found in 2 Chronicles, Ezra or Nehemiah).
b) God promised great blessings and prosperity for the construction of the 3rd temple when the foundation is completed. (Haggai 2:18-19).

a) Construction of the 2nd temple ran into problems and adversity. (Ezra 4-5) The prophet Daniel also revealed the 2nd temple and Jerusalem will be rebuilt during troublesome times. (Daniel 9:25).
b) Construction of the 3rd temple will be built with no problems and with aid from people all over the world. (Zechariah 6:15)

a) Construction of Jerusalem also ran into problems and adversity and a wall constructed to protect the city. (Nehemiah 2:19-6:14). The prophet Daniel also revealed the 2nd temple and Jerusalem will be rebuilt during troublesome times. (Daniel 9:25). Jerusalem is a city with walls!
b) Jerusalem not in ruins. Jerusalem expands with prosperity without a wall surrounding the city. (Zechariah 2:4-5). Read this again! Jerusalem is a city without walls! (Zechariah 2:4-5). It's also mentioned in Ezekiel's prophecy of future Jerusalem. (Ezekiel 38:11).

a) God does not return to Jerusalem. Nothing found in Ezra to Nehemiah.
b) God returns to Jerusalem and blesses everything. (Zechariah 1:16-17, Zechariah 8:1-23). Church is gone and God focuses His attention once again to Israel. Daniel's 70th week begins.

a) Only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin returned to Jerusalem during the time of the 2nd temple. (Ezra 1:5).
b) The House of Judah is seen together with the House of Israel. All the tribes of Jacob is back in the holy land. (Zechariah 8:13, Zechariah 10).

a) God never mentioned the shaking of heaven and earth in Ezra to Nehemiah.
b) God promised to shake heaven and earth. (Haggai 2:6, Haggai 2:21-22)

a) The two witnesses are not seen anywhere in Ezra and Nehemiah after the foundation was completed.
b) The two witnesses are revealed in Zechariah 4:12-14.

a) No mentioning of the Lord's return anywhere in Ezra and Nehemiah.
b) Christ returns in Zechariah 14:4-5.


They're obviously different books describing the building of two separate temples during different timeline.









.

Click to expand...

WRONG AGAIN! Haggai 1 is history and Ezra tells us. Ezra 4:24 work ceased until 2 year of Darius. Work resumes in Second year of Darius Haggai 1:14-15 see that second year of Darius. USE A WORD FOR WORD TRANSLATION TO SEE THIS. Haggai 1:14-15 are describing the same time period and the same event! Ezra 4:24 one verse layer Ezra 5:1-2 Hello? HAGGAI encourages Zerubbabel and Joshua and the building of the temple! Ezra 6:14-15 the temple is completed. READ THE BIBLE! THAT WAS HISTORY! How many second years of Darius are there? Wherein, Zerubbabel and Joshua resumed the work on the second temple? Wherein, they're encouraged to build by the prophets? ONE TIME. and Haggai 1:14-15 are parallels with the historical accounts of Ezra 4:24 Ezra 5:1-2 Do see Haggai 1:1 the word of the Lord came by Haggai the prophet UNTO (they received it on the 1st day of the 6th month 2nd year of DARIUS) Zerubbabel and Joshua. Ezra 4:24 tells us Haggai 1:14-15 is speaking of the SAME TIME! The second year of Darius.

YOURE FALSE VIEW IS DEBUNKED!!!


DUH! Of course, Ezra doesn't mention the shaking of the heavens and the earth. LIKE I SAID Haggai 2:1-9, Haggai 2:18-19 and Haggai 2:20-23 are FUTURE messages. Haggai 2:1 DO YOU SEE DARIUS NAME? (This verse only now in Haggai, don't try and falsify what I'm saying). No! Not in the original language. It's a message for the future. Haggai 2:18-19 DO YOU SEE DARIUS nAME in the date? Only this message now (don't try and give a false account of what I'm saying) Do YOU SEE DARIUS NAME in the day or date? Haggai 2:20-23 No! Only this verse that I'm mentioning now...don't falsify what I'm saying. ONLY DARIUS NAME And ONLY inHAGGAI. And only where a day or date is mentioned.

Zerubbabel is one of the 2 witnesses in ZECHARIAH 4 and HAGGAI 2 ONLY. Don't falsify again. Haggai 2:23 the Lord calls him MY servant Amos 3:7. Zerubbabel a servant, a prophet, Revelation 11:10 given power, authority as a signet Revelation 11:3. Zechariah 4:6.

Hello! the message is directed to Zerubbabel in Haggai 2:20-21 what does that mean? It's a future message and Zerubbabel Of the second temple era is gone.

I just can't believe you're claiming Haggai 1 is not history. That's why I keep asking. This is like kindergarten to debunk your view. Ezra 4:24 Zerubbabel and Joshua resume building SECOND YEAR OF DARIUS. Ezra 5:1-2 . Then in Haggai 1:14-15 Zerubbabel and Joshua resume building in THE SECOND YEAR OF DARIUS! EZRA TELLS THiS WAS HISTORY! ITS THE SAME EVENT IN THE SAME YEAR IT IS HISTORY!

What false witness what?

_\_______________________________
___Psalms 3704 said concerning me,

Now let's use "your logic and theory" on how to interpret prophecy with Haggai 2:20-23 you claim if a persons name is in the verse or chapter would imply the past.____________________________________

You later implied I said this about Zerubbabel.

YOU ARE GIVING FALSE INFORMATION CONCERNING WHAT I SAID!
I NEVER SAID THAT! Show me where I said if a persons name (other than Darius) in the verse or chapter implies the past. OR ACCEPT THAT YOU GAVE A FALSE ACCOUNT OF WHAT I SAID.

I said if DARIUS name ONLY ( I never mentioned anyone else's name) is in the message (beginning where the word of the Lord comes) it gives us a timeline to represent the past. That's what I said! Of course, whenever I said this I was referring to the book of Haggai. If I didn't restate that it was only in the book of Haggai, every single time I mentioned it...I didn't think anyone would twist my words like you. It ONLY applies to the book of Haggai. IT ONLY APPLIES IN THE BoOK of Haggai. ONLY HAGGAI! Only when a day or date is mentioned.

In the manner you twist what I say, am I to trust that you don't do the same to the word of God?

Ronald said:

Many have postulated Obama as being the Antichrist and a Muslim. First of all, the Antichrist is a pawn of Satan and Satan actually possesses him at a particular moment. Before that, this person doesn't have a clue, just like Judas didn't until Satan came into him. Is Obama a Muslim? It appears he is protective of Muslims and appeases them but hasn't really demonstrated a worship for anyone but himself. He attended a church for 20 years led by Rev. Wright who preached damn the U.S. and racism as well. Many people go to church and aren't true Christians -- they are the tare amongst the wheat. They pretend, but in their hearts, they follow another agenda. Obama's mentors are Marxist, anti-American and anti-Constitution, so what should we expect? But a true Muslim would not be pro-gay marriage -- that's a sign that he isn't a Muslim. Gays are murdered in Muslim countries. He isn't religious at all, but he is a pawn.

Click to expand...

Not all Muslims agree with each other. There is a lot of internal fighting.

Even though it is publically prohibited, homosexuality is reportedly rampant in strict Islamic countries since the relationships between the sexes (except after marriage) are so taboo. If a female can't be seen alone with a male and discouraged from talking to males, and can't show anything but their eyes (some places are like this), they can't really let their hair down except in the presence of other women. If other women are pretty much their only hope for a loving relationship, it follows that they may start to seek comfort and pleasure sexually from each other (and likewise, the males with males).

I think if President Obama was a Muslim, he'd be doing exactly what he is doing. He says he is a Christian, but there's no spiritual fruit visible to validate his claim. He has called Muslims "his brothers." Most Christians would never refer to anyone as a brother except another confessed Christian.

If you want to learn more about Islam, I recommend two things:

1. Watching the film More Than Dreams, about five former Muslims who now follow Jesus:
www.morethandreams.org
(You can share it with Muslims, too, in dozens of languages.)

2. Reading Nabeel Qureshi's book, "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus."

Both are excellent!

John S said:

The Elect consist of 144,000 first born male virgins, who never lie. The Elect does NOT consist of every Tom, Dick, and Harry.

Click to expand...

I disagree with you. I think Scripture is clear that the elect are the true Christians (everyone in the Church). The 144,000 are just a small subset of Jewish believers in Jesus during the Tribulation.

Luke17:37 said:

Not all Muslims agree with each other. There is a lot of internal fighting.

Even though it is publically prohibited, homosexuality is reportedly rampant in strict Islamic countries since the relationships between the sexes (except after marriage) are so taboo. If a female can't be seen alone with a male and discouraged from talking to males, and can't show anything but their eyes (some places are like this), they can't really let their hair down except in the presence of other women. If other women are pretty much their only hope for a loving relationship, it follows that they may start to seek comfort and pleasure sexually from each other (and likewise, the males with males).

I think if President Obama was a Muslim, he'd be doing exactly what he is doing. He says he is a Christian, but there's no spiritual fruit visible to validate his claim. He has called Muslims "his brothers." Most Christians would never refer to anyone as a brother except another confessed Christian.

If you want to learn more about Islam, I recommend two things:

1. Watching the film More Than Dreams, about five former Muslims who now follow Jesus:
www.morethandreams.org
(You can share it with Muslims, too, in dozens of languages.)

2. Reading Nabeel Qureshi's book, "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus."

Both are excellent!

Click to expand...

You make some good points. But keep in mind, all false religions are Satan's design. To distort God, His truth, move people away from Jesus, atheism, philosophies that claim all roads lead to heaven, etc. ... Whatever it takes. So God uses people to get His work done; but so does Satan and most of us don't have a clue how or when we are actually being used either way. Obama is just a pawn. Actually, I think Trump is too!

Luke17:37 said:

I disagree with you. I think Scripture is clear that the elect are the true Christians (everyone in the Church). The 144,000 are just a small subset of Jewish believers in Jesus during the Tribulation.

Click to expand...

There are only 12,000 Jews - from the Tribe of Judah. There are 132,000 Christians.
The Elect does NOT consist of every Tom, Dick, and Harry. It consists of first born, virgin males, who never lie.

John S said:

There are only 12,000 Jews - from the Tribe of Judah. There are 132,000 Christians.
The Elect does NOT consist of every Tom, Dick, and Harry. It consists of first born, virgin males, who never lie.

Click to expand...

The 144,00 are from the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7) and they are also obedient to the Lamb (Revelation 14). We say "Jewish" to refer to all the descendants of Israel, not just Judah. Most people have no idea what tribe they are from, unless they are named "Cohen" ("priest"), since the genealogical records were destroyed along with the temple in AD 70. It doesn't say "firstborn."

By limiting the elect, you are either misunderstanding Scripture or just flat out rejecting it. If you do a search of "elect," you will find it in Matthew, Mark, Luke, Romans, Colossians, Titus, 2 Timothy, 1 Peter, and 2 John.
"Election" is found in Romans, 2 Peter, and 1 Thessalonians. Test and see for yourself that elect/election refers to all who are truly saved.

Fusion77 said:

WRONG AGAIN! Haggai 1 is history and Ezra tells us. Ezra 4:24 work ceased until 2 year of Darius. Work resumes in Second year of Darius Haggai 1:14-15 see that second year of Darius. USE A WORD FOR WORD TRANSLATION TO SEE THIS. Haggai 1:14-15 are describing the same time period and the same event! Ezra 4:24 one verse layer Ezra 5:1-2 Hello? HAGGAI encourages Zerubbabel and Joshua and the building of the temple! Ezra 6:14-15 the temple is completed. READ THE BIBLE! THAT WAS HISTORY! How many second years of Darius are there? Wherein, Zerubbabel and Joshua resumed the work on the second temple? Wherein, they're encouraged to build by the prophets? ONE TIME. and Haggai 1:14-15 are parallels with the historical accounts of Ezra 4:24 Ezra 5:1-2 Do see Haggai 1:1 the word of the Lord came by Haggai the prophet UNTO (they received it on the 1st day of the 6th month 2nd year of DARIUS) Zerubbabel and Joshua. Ezra 4:24 tells us Haggai 1:14-15 is speaking of the SAME TIME! The second year of Darius.

YOURE FALSE VIEW IS DEBUNKED!!!

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Do you actually know how to debunk someone? You can't disprove someone's claim as false by merely saying "Haggai 1 is history and Ezra tells us. Ezra 4:24 work ceased until 2 year of Darius. Work resumes in Second year of Darius Haggai 1:14-15 see that second year of Darius." because Haggai did "NOT INDICATED CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE RESUMED" in the second year. Haggai said the building of the temple started in the second year. Haggai never mentioned work was done in building a temple prior to 1:14-15.

Now do you understand at all what Haggai wrote? Just what he wrote alone! As I said before, you're commingling Haggai's book into Ezra's book deceiving yourself by combining two different stories ending up with a false interpretation.

If you wanna debunk someone, present indisputable evidence like this below.

In Haggai 2:1-3, it reveals on the 21st day of the 7th month, God praised the glory and splendor the this temple before the foundation could be finished on the 24th day of the 9th month, Haggai 2:18. God is telling us this temple is already magnificent!



The first temple made by Solomon was constructed with the riches and wealth of King Solomon. Filled with gold, other precious stones, jewelries, fine incenses, etc and the Ark of the Covenant. It was the most spectacular temple among the two temples.

The construction of the second temple was built by captives returning from exile living in the wilderness. They were poor! The construction of the temple was probably originally made with wood and tin. The second temple never contained the Ark of the Covenant even during Herod's time of reign.

Do you understand what this means? Do you understand at all what Haggai wrote in Haggai 2:3 and Haggai 2:9?
http://www.biblestudytools.com/haggai/2-3-compare.html
http://www.biblestudytools.com/haggai/2-9-compare.html

If the temple described by Haggai is the same temple as Ezra, how in the world can God claim this temple is better than Solomon's Temple? The construction of Solomon's Temple verses the second temple is like night and day, there was no comparison! Solomon's temple was vastly superior!

Do you understand why the temple took roughly 420 years to complete? It had to be renovated a few times because it was just a shabby temple, unfit for God. It wasn't until Herod came into power had he wanted to gain the acceptance of the Jewish people that he ordered a complete renovation on the second temple. The temple was completely upgraded, expanded and finally finished around 64 AD.



Do you understand now? There's no freakin way in the world Haggai was writing about the same temple as Ezra. Haggai 2:3 and 2:9 are absolutely, undeniably, indisputably clear, Haggai and Ezra were NOT writing about the same temple.

*******************************************************

Do you know what's gonna happen when they build Zerubbabel's (3rd) Temple during the first year of the tribulation?

Ark of the Covenant Returned to Jerusalem
https://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/in-israel/local/ark-of-the-covenant-returned-to-jerusalem-8808

The rabbi, the lost ark and the future of Temple Mount
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-lost-ark-and-the-future-of-Temple-Mount.html

The Ark of the Covenant will be in the Holy of Holies within the temple.

***************************************

Do you know what else is gonna happen during the construction of the 3rd temple during the tribulation?

Jerusalem will be a city without walls! The current wall surrounding the city will be coming down,(Zechariah 2:4-5). Just as Ezekiel prophesied, (Ezekiel 38:11) when many nations will invade Jerusalem without a wall during the tribulation.

Nehemiah goes into deep detail of a wall being built around Jerusalem during the time of the second temple. (Nehemiah 2:19-7:3).

How can Haggai and Ezra be writing about the same temple when one temple is in Jerusalem having walls surrounding the city and the other temple in Jerusalem does not have walls?

*************************************

Your only argument thus far that Haggai's prophecies are mostly past is based only on Darius' name being mentioned and speculating Haggai's and Ezra's writings to be the same.

Well guess what, Darius name is only mentioned 3 times in the book of Haggai. Haggai 1:1, Haggai 1:15 and Haggai 2:10.

Darius name is also mentioned in the prophetic book of Zechariah and numerous times in Daniel. Does Darius name also make those books historic too?

And just because you say so, it doesn't prove Ezra and Haggai to be the same book. One is historic, while the other is prophetic. You haven't proven or disprove anything yet.















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Luke17:37 said:

The 144,00 are from the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7) and they are also obedient to the Lamb (Revelation 14). We say "Jewish" to refer to all the descendants of Israel, not just Judah. Most people have no idea what tribe they are from, unless they are named "Cohen" ("priest"), since the genealogical records were destroyed along with the temple in AD 70. It doesn't say "firstborn."

By limiting the elect, you are either misunderstanding Scripture or just flat out rejecting it. If you do a search of "elect," you will find it in Matthew, Mark, Luke, Romans, Colossians, Titus, 2 Timothy, 1 Peter, and 2 John.
"Election" is found in Romans, 2 Peter, and 1 Thessalonians. Test and see for yourself that elect/election refers to all who are truly saved.

Click to expand...

Revelation "limits" the Elect to ONLY 144,000 first born virgin males, who NEVER lie.
If you claim to be "saved", then you are committing the sin of blasphemy.

Psalm3704 said:

Do you actually know how to debunk someone? You can't disprove someone's claim as false by merely saying "Haggai 1 is history and Ezra tells us. Ezra 4:24 work ceased until 2 year of Darius. Work resumes in Second year of Darius Haggai 1:14-15 see that second year of Darius." because Haggai did "NOT INDICATED CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE RESUMED" in the second year. Haggai said the building of the temple started in the second year. Haggai never mentioned work was done in building a temple prior to 1:14-15.

Now do you understand at all what Haggai wrote? Just what he wrote alone! As I said before, you're commingling Haggai's book into Ezra's book deceiving yourself by combining two different stories ending up with a false interpretation.

If you wanna debunk someone, present indisputable evidence like this below.

In Haggai 2:1-3, it reveals on the 21st day of the 7th month, God praised the glory and splendor the this temple before the foundation could be finished on the 24th day of the 9th month, Haggai 2:18. God is telling us this temple is already magnificent!

Haggai 2:3 (GNT) "Is there anyone among you who can still remember how splendid the Temple used to be? How does it look to you now? It must seem like nothing at all.​

Haggai 2:9 (GNT) The new Temple will be more splendid than the old one, and there I will give my people prosperity and peace." The Lord Almighty has spoken.​

The first temple made by Solomon was constructed with the riches and wealth of King Solomon. Filled with gold, other precious stones, jewelries, fine incenses, etc and the Ark of the Covenant. It was the most spectacular temple among the two temples.

The construction of the second temple was built by captives returning from exile living in the wilderness. They were poor! The construction of the temple was probably originally made with wood and tin. The second temple never contained the Ark of the Covenant even during Herod's time of reign.

Do you understand what this means? Do you understand at all what Haggai wrote in Haggai 2:3 and Haggai 2:9?
http://www.biblestudytools.com/haggai/2-3-compare.html
http://www.biblestudytools.com/haggai/2-9-compare.html

If the temple described by Haggai is the same temple as Ezra, how in the world can God claim this temple is better than Solomon's Temple? The construction of Solomon's Temple verses the second temple is like night and day, there was no comparison! Solomon's temple was vastly superior!

Do you understand why the temple took roughly 420 years to complete? It had to be renovated a few times because it was just a shabby temple, unfit for God. It wasn't until Herod came into power had he wanted to gain the acceptance of the Jewish people that he ordered a complete renovation on the second temple. The temple was completely upgraded, expanded and finally finished around 64 AD.

Do you understand now? There's no freakin way in the world Haggai was writing about the same temple as Ezra. Haggai 2:3 and 2:9 are absolutely, undeniably, indisputably clear, Haggai and Ezra were NOT writing about the same temple.

*******************************************************

Do you know what's gonna happen when they build Zerubbabel's (3rd) Temple during the first year of the tribulation?

Ark of the Covenant Returned to Jerusalem
https://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/in-israel/local/ark-of-the-covenant-returned-to-jerusalem-8808

The rabbi, the lost ark and the future of Temple Mount
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-lost-ark-and-the-future-of-Temple-Mount.html

The Ark of the Covenant will be in the Holy of Holies within the temple.

***************************************

Do you know what else is gonna happen during the construction of the 3rd temple during the tribulation?

Jerusalem will be a city without walls! The current wall surrounding the city will be coming down,(Zechariah 2:4-5). Just as Ezekiel prophesied, (Ezekiel 38:11) when many nations will invade Jerusalem without a wall during the tribulation.

Nehemiah goes into deep detail of a wall being built around Jerusalem during the time of the second temple. (Nehemiah 2:19-7:3).

How can Haggai and Ezra be writing about the same temple when one temple is in Jerusalem having walls surrounding the city and the other temple in Jerusalem does not have walls?

*************************************

Your only argument thus far that Haggai's prophecies are mostly past is based only on Darius' name being mentioned and speculating Haggai's and Ezra's writings to be the same.

Well guess what, Darius name is only mentioned 3 times in the book of Haggai. Haggai 1:1, Haggai 1:15 and Haggai 2:10.

Darius name is also mentioned in the prophetic book of Zechariah and numerous times in Daniel. Does Darius name also make those books historic too?

And just because you say so, it doesn't prove Ezra and Haggai to be the same book. One is historic, while the other is prophetic. You haven't proven or disprove anything yet.















.

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The bible clearly states Ezra 4:24 Ezra 5:1-2 is speaking of the same time and same event as Haggai 1:14-15. Then the building on that second temple is completed about 3.5 years later. Ezra 6:14-15. The bible clearly states this. I will not disregard the bible. The bible debunks your false view, not me!


It appears you continue to use a smoke screen concerning what I say. So I'll restate again... IN THE BOOK OF HAGGAI ONLY, when DARIUS name is mentioned when a day or date is given it signifies it is a message for the past. If DARIUS name is not mentioned when a day or date is given it is a message for the future. ONLY IN THE BOOK OF HAGGAI! This can usually only be realized in word for word translations.

Haggai 2:1-9 FUTURE. Haggai 2:9 the LORD will give PEACE. This is the MILLENIAL TEMPLE. We won't know true peace until the Lord returns. If the Lord says he will give peace, he means true eternal peace. Haggai 2:9 millenial temple! Haggai 2:1 Darius's name not there...FUTURE MESSAGE!

You're confusing the third temple with the Millenial temple. Do you know why there will be no walls around Jerusalem? Because the LORD HIMSELF WILL BE A WALL OF FIRE. Zechariah 2:4-5 Millenial ERA! Or are you saying the Lord will sit in the midst of Jerusalem when the third temple is standing? Wrong again? MILLENIAL ERA!!!!!

Zechariah 3:8 Joshua is a type of the Branch (Messiah) it says right here! Same encounter with the same angel. Zechariah 6:11-12 crowning the high priest as King. HE shall build the temple of the Lord! That's symbolic of Christ! He will build the Temple of the Lord Zechariah 6:13 the he sits on the throne of David eternally as high priest. He will rule with PEACE ETERNALLY! Do have the gall to suggest Christ is coming to build the third temple? Zechariah 6:14-15 is NOT speaking of the third temple. Joshua the high priest is a symbol of the Branch IN ZECHARIAH 3 and 6 for starters. Read Zechariah 3:8 he is a symbol of the Branch. Isaiah 11:1 Jeremiah 33:15-16 THE PEOPLE will dwell in SAFETY! MILLENIAL! Zechariah 3:9 this is the stone in Zion Isaiah 28:16 the SPIRIT of the Lord will be upon HIM. Isaiah 11:2 The 7 eyes upon the Stone are the 7 Spirits Revelation 5:6



Haggai 2:20-21 is a message to ZERUBBABEL! You have no concept of who Zerubbabel is!

If you want to continue to lean on your own misunderstanding, that's your choice.

If you think Zechariah 2:1-5 is talking about the third temple...and you're expecting Jesus to be a a wall of fire while the third temple is standing. Furthermore, that He will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem during that time the third temple is up...I rest my case! YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!

Zechariah 14:16-17 And Zechariah 14:8-9 speak of the same time as Zechariah 2:4-5. This is NOT during the third temple is era! The Lord will be king over all the earth and reign from Jerusalem. He will be a wall of fire around the city and dwell in the midst! This is speaking of the MILLENIAL ERA!!!

Fusion77 said:

The bible clearly states Ezra 4:24 Ezra 5:1-2 is speaking of the same time and same event as Haggai 1:14-15. Then the building on that second temple is completed about 3.5 years later. Ezra 6:14-15. The bible clearly states this. I will not disregard the bible. The bible debunks your false view, not me!

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Worst case of cherry-picking scriptures I've ever seen. Do you always assume cats and dogs are the same animals because they both have certain parallels? Because both have 2 ears, 2 eyes, 1 nose and 1 mouth, this makes dogs and cats the same animal to you?

You've continued to push this issue over and over again dogmatically claiming the books of Haggai and Ezra as being the same because they both mentioned just "one single" parallel: "the second year of Darius" without taking into consideration tons of conflicting views.

All you're doing is just following one parallel while ignoring 15 plus conflicting views mentioned in the bible. You're totaling disregarding the bible trying to get it to conform to your own view.

Do you understand at all what I wrote in post #97 about what God stated in Haggai 2:3? When the foundation was being worked on, God praised the appearance of this new temple being better than those in the past. The second temple described by Ezra was pitiful made from poverty. The first temple was made with King Solomon's riches and wealth built on marvel and gold. There's no way Haggai was writing about the same temple Ezra wrote. The temple written by Ezra was inferior to the first temple.

You're also ignoring all the other conflicting views I've mentioned in post #89.



Did you just recently started studying bible prophecy? I already told you in post #66, how many more times do I need to tell you? It's a common practise for prophets to use the ancient names of cities, countries and people associated within their own time when prophesying about the future.

You need to watch this video from Joel who's one of the best scholars on Middle East prophecy. He can explain it better than me.

Fusion77 said:

ITS ONLY DARIUS NAME IN THE BOOK OF HAGGAI. I've NEVER said anything about Nebuchadnezzar or Zerubbabel in this respect. Only Darius, and only in the book of Haggai.

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And where do you come up with such nonsense that it only involves Darius' name and only in the book of Haggai, and not names of other past biblical characters or books? Such gobbledygook eschatology!

Fusion77 said:

It appears you continue to use a smoke screen concerning what I say. So I'll restate again... IN THE BOOK OF HAGGAI ONLY, when DARIUS name is mentioned when a day or date is given it signifies it is a message for the past. If DARIUS name is not mentioned when a day or date is given it is a message for the future. ONLY IN THE BOOK OF HAGGAI! This can usually only be realized in word for word translations.

Click to expand...

The only smokescreen is what's in front of you as you can't seem to see or understand the things you read in the bible.

Case and point. Darius' name is mentioned twice in Haggai 1, you already claim the entire first chapter is past because of his name being there.

In chapter 2, Darius is mention once in Haggai 2:10. It said on the 24th day of the 9th month in the 2nd year.

Read the rest of chapter. the 24th day of the 9th month appears in Haggai 2:18 when the foundation was completed and Haggai 2:20 when God announced the shaking of heaven and earth. All this information from Haggai 2:10-23 happens on the same day: 24th day on the 9th month. It doesn't matter if Darius' name also appears in the middle and the end of Haggai 2 as it all happens on the same day. THE SAME DAY!!!!!!!

By your logic and reasoning involving the use of the name Darius, pretty much the entire book of Haggai is all past, having no bearing on the future! Complete Gobbledygook Eschatology!



Seriously, did you just recently started studying bible prophecy, found the message in Haggai 2:20, got excited over your discovery and decided to share this find with the world? In case you don't know, some of us already knew the prophecy in Haggai before you joined this forum 2 months ago and already held discussions on the book of Haggai. Anyways, you're so lost on this prophecy you're constantly spelling it LSTO and don't even realized it.










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