Moabites

Moral Orel · Jan 31, 2016

Here's one that has always bothered me. First The Bible says:

No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of them may enter the assembly of the Lord forever. Deuteronomy 23:3 ESV

But then in the book of Ruth it refers to Ruth being a Moabite or Moabitess at least 6 times (Ruth 1:4, Ruth 1:22, Ruth 2:2, Ruth 2:21, Ruth 4:5, Ruth 4:10).

And from what I understand, the story of Ruth is a famous story of a person converting to Judaism because she loved Naomi so much... But she shouldn't have been allowed to right?

Now so far I have heard the theory that she wasn't a Moabite, and the reason that she is called a Moabite by The Bible (over and over) is that she was a Jew that lived in the lands that the Jews took from the Moabites. But I haven't heard any evidence to back that up. Are there other people in the Bible that are referred to as Moabites (who are supposed to be hated by the Jews) but are actually Jews? Or how about other Jews in the Bible who are referred to as something else based on lands they conquered? Or how about an explanation as to why The Bible wants to really hammer it home that we are supposed to think of her as a Moabite?

Because the thing is, if you track the lineage from her down the line, she was David's Grandmother which means that his lineage won't let him be allowed to "enter the assembly of Heaven". And since Jesus is a descendant of David, neither is he.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Jan 31, 2016

Perhaps the most significant Bible character to come from Moab was Ruth, who was “of the women of Moab” but was genetically linked to Israel through Lot, the nephew of Abraham (Genesis 11:31). Ruth is an example of how God can change a life and take it in a direction He has foreordained, and we see God working out His perfect plan in Ruth’s life, just as He does with all His children (Romans 8:28). Although she came from a pagan background in Moab, once she met the God of Israel, Ruth became a living testimony to Him by faith. Ruth, the Moabitess, is one of only three women mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:5).

fatboys · Jan 31, 2016

Nicholas Deka said:
Here's one that has always bothered me. First The Bible says:

No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of them may enter the assembly of the Lord forever. Deuteronomy 23:3 ESV

But then in the book of Ruth it refers to Ruth being a Moabite or Moabitess at least 6 times (Ruth 1:4, Ruth 1:22, Ruth 2:2, Ruth 2:21, Ruth 4:5, Ruth 4:10).

And from what I understand, the story of Ruth is a famous story of a person converting to Judaism because she loved Naomi so much... But she shouldn't have been allowed to right?

Now so far I have heard the theory that she wasn't a Moabite, and the reason that she is called a Moabite by The Bible (over and over) is that she was a Jew that lived in the lands that the Jews took from the Moabites. But I haven't heard any evidence to back that up. Are there other people in the Bible that are referred to as Moabites (who are supposed to be hated by the Jews) but are actually Jews? Or how about other Jews in the Bible who are referred to as something else based on lands they conquered? Or how about an explanation as to why The Bible wants to really hammer it home that we are supposed to think of her as a Moabite?

Because the thing is, if you track the lineage from her down the line, she was David's Grandmother which means that his lineage won't let him be allowed to "enter the assembly of Heaven". And since Jesus is a descendant of David, neither is he.

Moabite Men could not marry Israelite women but a Israelite man could marry a Moabite woman. This is the point that Boas was trying to make. By the way Ruth was a convert.

Moral Orel · Jan 31, 2016

fatboys said:
Moabite Men could not marry Israelite women but a Israelite man could marry a Moabite woman. This is the point that Boas was trying to make. By the way Ruth was a convert.

Hmm... I guess that could be possible. And I agree Ruth was a convert. She converted to Judaism, but she was a Moabite. Since the verse says "even to the tenth generation" it has to be talking about genetic lineage, and not religion though.

The problem though is that Ruth's genetic lineage makes any of her ancestors a Moabite. Unless there is something that says the woman's lineage doesn't get passed on or something to that effect. Even past the 10th generation, the verse says "forever" so we have to keep going down the line till it ends. Unless of course a woman's genetics don't count as far as the Bible is concerned.

Moral Orel · Jan 31, 2016

jason_delisle said:
Perhaps the most significant Bible character to come from Moab was Ruth, who was “of the women of Moab” but was genetically linked to Israel through Lot, the nephew of Abraham (Genesis 11:31). Ruth is an example of how God can change a life and take it in a direction He has foreordained, and we see God working out His perfect plan in Ruth’s life, just as He does with all His children (Romans 8:28). Although she came from a pagan background in Moab, once she met the God of Israel, Ruth became a living testimony to Him by faith. Ruth, the Moabitess, is one of only three women mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:5).

You're right that Ruth is "genetically linked to Israel" but so is every single Ammonite and Moabite since Ammon and Moab were the incestuous result of Lot's daughters' act, well, you know. So that isn't significant at all. So sure, maybe she can convert, but then neither she, nor any of her ancestors, can enter the "assembly of the lord".

ChetSinger · Feb 1, 2016

Nicholas Deka said:
Here's one that has always bothered me. First The Bible says:

No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of them may enter the assembly of the Lord forever. Deuteronomy 23:3 ESV

But then in the book of Ruth it refers to Ruth being a Moabite or Moabitess at least 6 times (Ruth 1:4, Ruth 1:22, Ruth 2:2, Ruth 2:21, Ruth 4:5, Ruth 4:10).

And from what I understand, the story of Ruth is a famous story of a person converting to Judaism because she loved Naomi so much... But she shouldn't have been allowed to right?

Nationality at that time was determined by fatherhood, not motherhood. Ruth's children were considered Israelites because Boaz was an Israelite.

cloudyday2 · Feb 1, 2016

@fatboys linked an interesting article in another thread describing some Jewish traditions where Jesse, the father of King David, was embarrassed by his Moabite ancestry, and that led to circumstances where King David was suspected of being an illegitimate child. The tradition uses this to explain the Cinderella-like treatment of King David as a child. I can't find the post with that link, but maybe somebody else can.

fatboys · Feb 1, 2016

Nicholas Deka said:
Hmm... I guess that could be possible. And I agree Ruth was a convert. She converted to Judaism, but she was a Moabite. Since the verse says "even to the tenth generation" it has to be talking about genetic lineage, and not religion though.

The problem though is that Ruth's genetic lineage makes any of her ancestors a Moabite. Unless there is something that says the woman's lineage doesn't get passed on or something to that effect. Even past the 10th generation, the verse says "forever" so we have to keep going down the line till it ends. Unless of course a woman's genetics don't count as far as the Bible is concerned.

The reason for Israel taking a dim view of ammonites and Moabites goes back to when Israel was fleeing Egypt these two groups denied access to water and food when traveling through their land

Commander Xenophon · Feb 1, 2016

One might object to Judaism on this basis, but the restrictions on Moabites obviously do not apply in Christianity, and have not, for "there is neither Jew nor Greek..."

In the ancient churches of the Holy Land and the near east (EO Patriarchates of Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria, the Syriac Orthodox, the Maronites, the Church of Sinai, the various RC jurisdiction, et al), I believe there to be persons of Moabite descent.

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Moabites

Moral Orel

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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

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fatboys

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Moral Orel

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Moral Orel

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ChetSinger

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cloudyday2

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fatboys

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Commander Xenophon

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