Hesitating to call myself a christian

dms1972

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Ok, a bit of history - I was taken to church services since I was before the age of four. Baptised as an infant, sunday schooled. But I never was really interest in joining youth organisations, the only thing I was willing to do was go to Sunday School. So unlike most teens I was never in a youth fellowship and just stopped going to church during my teens. I went a few times as a teen, completely by myself - unfamiliar churches too. Folks talked to me a bit after the service then pointed at a door and said there's the youth fellowship in there. Well for one thing I wasn't walking in there not knowing anyone! So I drifted. I still listened to loads of CCM music. I wasn't into anything else really (except renting out videos, reading mags ). Pretty depressed at times at not going anywhere and being asked about my weekends, and generally feeling like oddity. So just I just felt a total freak to other christians when they asked me things. Anyway I suppose I should have just got into the youth fellowship and there'd have been no probs. I wanted to be in something, but it never worked out, just my personality I suppose, a bit independent? I seen the "christian" kids at school who were part of christian groups and they didn't impress me much how they got on with each other anyway. Anyway teens can be immature.

So now in my forties and been through some atheistic phases, but really no idea what I quite believe, even though I know about loads of theology.

I 've just been trying to get into a church for a bit but I find myself still critical of churches and christians to be honest.

I used to call myself a christian, and say I was if asked, but now I feel hesitant.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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It sounds like you don't really know what you believe at this point. My best advice to you is to read and study until you are convinced of the existence of God and Christ. Also it might do you some good to visit some different churches until you find one you like. I also recommend you read "Darwinism Under The Microscope".
 
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dms1972

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It sounds like you don't really know what you believe at this point. My best advice to you is to read and study until you are convinced of the existence of God and Christ. Also it might do you some good to visit some different churches until you find one you like. I also recommend you read "Darwinism Under The Microscope".



Christian faith is not 'beliefs' is my current understanding - faith is more outward towards a person, not self-regarding, not just assent to statements, even if it includes that.

Yet I find myself trying to believe the Bible inspite of people, including people who call themselves christian who are skeptical of the Bible. They don't hesitate much about calling themselve christian (unfortately) but they leave others uncertain.

So basically I feel very little confidence in what a lot of christians say - what they are usually explaining is just their version in a way, or some understanding that works for them.

I'll take a look at the book you mention
 
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graceandpeace

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Ok, a bit of history - I was taken to church services since I was before the age of four. Baptised as an infant, sunday schooled. But I never was really interest in joining youth organisations, the only thing I was willing to do was go to Sunday School. So unlike most teens I was never in a youth fellowship and just stopped going to church during my teens. I went a few times as a teen, completely by myself - unfamiliar churches too. Folks talked to me a bit after the service then pointed at a door and said there's the youth fellowship in there. Well for one thing I wasn't walking in there not knowing anyone! So I drifted. I still listened to loads of CCM music. I wasn't into anything else really (except renting out videos, reading mags ). Pretty depressed at times at not going anywhere and being asked about my weekends, and generally feeling like oddity. So just I just felt a total freak to other christians when they asked me things. Anyway I suppose I should have just got into the youth fellowship and there'd have been no probs. I wanted to be in something, but it never worked out, just my personality I suppose, a bit independent? I seen the "christian" kids at school who were part of christian groups and they didn't impress me much how they got on with each other anyway. Anyway teens can be immature.

So now in my forties and been through some atheistic phases, but really no idea what I quite believe, even though I know about loads of theology.

I 've just been trying to get into a church for a bit but I find myself still critical of churches and christians to be honest.

I used to call myself a christian, and say I was if asked, but now I feel hesitant.

It sounds like you're uncertain of what you believe & you're now possibly a seeker.

In baptism you were welcomed into the Christian faith, but it's really up to you whether you want to make that faith your own.

It's okay to have some criticisms. It would help to know what you've encountered that has perhaps put you off. Christianity is a diverse religion, & there are different paths to moving forward, if that's something you might be interested in doing.

Let me know if I can be of more help.
 
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dms1972

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Thankyou.

I think I wanted to be sure I was believing for the right reasons and that I was sincere. I maybe over-analysed myself in that regard.

Ok if you can help me out with this - I've been reading Christian books and one thing recently I have read about is the Covenant of Grace. Would it help me to understand this better?

Its been the hardest thing sometimes to get a mature christian to explain things

Other times its presented as TULIP but i am not fussed on that nor even think its a good summary of Calvin
 
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graceandpeace

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^I just re-read your response, are you asking about this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_theology

If so, this is a particular to a certain tradition, but it's not really part of how I think about my faith. I wouldn't recommend it as a starting point to learning about Christianity.
 
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dms1972

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It is something like that I read about it in a book - called The Atonement - its relation to the Covenant, Priesthood and Intercession of our Lord - Hugh Martin

Although I don't go to a Presbyterian church at the moment, it is the tradition I grew up connected to and this seems to be their theology, though there is likely some variations within the tradition



Is there anything you would recommend as a starting point?
 
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BeStill&Know

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Christian faith is not 'beliefs' is my current understanding - faith is more outward towards a person, not self-regarding, not just assent to statements, even if it includes that.

Yet I find myself trying to believe the Bible inspite of people, including people who call themselves christian who are skeptical of the Bible. They don't hesitate much about calling themselve christian (unfortately) but they leave others uncertain.

So basically I feel very little confidence in what a lot of christians say - what they are usually explaining is just their version in a way, or some understanding that works for them.
Good morning friend, I was not raised with a Christian back ground. I came solidarity to Christ by opening a modern version Bible"The Way", and fell in love with the most beautiful person I had ever knew. That foundation later gave me the wisdom to discern real Christians from fake ones and real churches from sects and cults. Jesus and His disciples taught on all the subjects you are concerned about. Even if you decide not to believe His teachings at some point, you will still have a firm solid foundation to access, what the relationship with God is all about. So you have nothing to lose.
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2PhiloVoid

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Ok, a bit of history - I was taken to church services since I was before the age of four. Baptised as an infant, sunday schooled. But I never was really interest in joining youth organisations, the only thing I was willing to do was go to Sunday School. So unlike most teens I was never in a youth fellowship and just stopped going to church during my teens. I went a few times as a teen, completely by myself - unfamiliar churches too. Folks talked to me a bit after the service then pointed at a door and said there's the youth fellowship in there. Well for one thing I wasn't walking in there not knowing anyone! So I drifted. I still listened to loads of CCM music. I wasn't into anything else really (except renting out videos, reading mags ). Pretty depressed at times at not going anywhere and being asked about my weekends, and generally feeling like oddity. So just I just felt a total freak to other christians when they asked me things. Anyway I suppose I should have just got into the youth fellowship and there'd have been no probs. I wanted to be in something, but it never worked out, just my personality I suppose, a bit independent? I seen the "christian" kids at school who were part of christian groups and they didn't impress me much how they got on with each other anyway. Anyway teens can be immature.

So now in my forties and been through some atheistic phases, but really no idea what I quite believe, even though I know about loads of theology.

I 've just been trying to get into a church for a bit but I find myself still critical of churches and christians to be honest.

I used to call myself a christian, and say I was if asked, but now I feel hesitant.

Well, dms1972, I've been in similar states of spiritual displacement over the years, with similar experiences of alienation or disconnection from other Christians, loneliness, volitional isolation, depression, feeling like an oddity, and critical of the various limitations of American churchianity.

While I can't say that I have yet overcome all of these disparities in my spiritual life, I've learned to tone down my expectations of fellow people in society, as well as moderate my expectations of those who profess, and attempt, to be Christians. Much of the discomfort that walking into a church comes, I think, in knowing that someone will disagree with me and make an issue out of it, or leaders will make mistakes and disrupt the social equilibrium that seemed to make the church attractive. So, I've come to expect these kinds of things, and I've learned that these are not new issues regarding sin, but old tired ones that have plagued Christians since time immemorial (i.e. even since the 1st century church).

Some of your (and my) psychological discomfort actually comes from the fact that since we live in America, people are prone to becoming highly polarized on social and political issues, as well as be fragmented in their perspectives due to the pluralistic political environment our nation subscribes to. So, some of the psychological discomfort we feel is natural in a social environment where everyone has the potential to ideologically "bump heads," so to speak, every single day.

What I would suggest, DMS, is to start where you're at, even by yourself, today, and know that each day you live, while in the present, existential moment, you have been given a position to have the Gospel message (i.e. the Bible) readily (and easily) available for grasping in your hands and heart (...an availability that has been more than ample for you, as you've already shared in your post).

Also, try to realize that the schemes of the Devil really and truly are designed to smack you down by provoking you with thoughts and feelings of discontent and unrest, prodding you to want "more fulfillment" in not only your spiritual life, but also within your life in general. The truth is, life is difficult, and it has always been difficult for most people living in most places and eras; it was even difficult for Jesus and His earliest disciples. Difficulty is typically a common malady, even among Christians, and those who present themselves to us as if things are going very well spiritually are, many times, either covering up their sins or simply not sharing that they are indeed suffering.

I appreciate your honesty in sharing your feelings on all of this, DMS. And as I said, I've been through very similar 'troughs' in life, and it ain't fun. But this by no means indicates that you're not being called by Jesus, or that He is for some reason side-stepping you. Rather, it just means that the Christian path in life is narrow, requiring your perseverance and willingness to accept some discomfort as you learn how to overcome some of the epistemological or physical obstacles you encounter along ... "the Way." :cool:

Peace
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aiki

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So now in my forties and been through some atheistic phases, but really no idea what I quite believe, even though I know about loads of theology.

I 've just been trying to get into a church for a bit but I find myself still critical of churches and christians to be honest.

I used to call myself a christian, and say I was if asked, but now I feel hesitant.

Well, what is a Christian? Right at its heart, what is Christianity? Paul the apostle explains:

Philippians 1:21
21 For to me to live is Christ...

We can get rapidly and seriously entangled with so much extraneous stuff in the Christian life. But the heart of it has always been "What will you do with Jesus?" Will you let him be your life? Will you make him the hub around which your life revolves? Will you open your heart to his grace, mercy, and love? The apostle John wrote,

1 John 5:11-12
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.


At bottom, living as a Christian is all about letting Jesus reign on the throne of your heart. Does he reign there? Will you yield the throne to him? None of the other stuff matters if Christ is not your life.

Selah.
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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Ok, a bit of history - I was taken to church services since I was before the age of four. Baptised as an infant, sunday schooled. But I never was really interest in joining youth organisations, the only thing I was willing to do was go to Sunday School. So unlike most teens I was never in a youth fellowship and just stopped going to church during my teens. I went a few times as a teen, completely by myself - unfamiliar churches too. Folks talked to me a bit after the service then pointed at a door and said there's the youth fellowship in there. Well for one thing I wasn't walking in there not knowing anyone! So I drifted. I still listened to loads of CCM music. I wasn't into anything else really (except renting out videos, reading mags ). Pretty depressed at times at not going anywhere and being asked about my weekends, and generally feeling like oddity. So just I just felt a total freak to other christians when they asked me things. Anyway I suppose I should have just got into the youth fellowship and there'd have been no probs. I wanted to be in something, but it never worked out, just my personality I suppose, a bit independent? I seen the "christian" kids at school who were part of christian groups and they didn't impress me much how they got on with each other anyway. Anyway teens can be immature.

So now in my forties and been through some atheistic phases, but really no idea what I quite believe, even though I know about loads of theology.

I 've just been trying to get into a church for a bit but I find myself still critical of churches and christians to be honest.

I used to call myself a christian, and say I was if asked, but now I feel hesitant.

Remember, going to church / belonging to a youth group doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going thru McDonalds makes you a hamburger. A Christian in Gods eyes is One who is trusting in the finished work of Jesus on the cross for ones personal sin account ; as a result, you get everything that is Christs including eternal life with God. As a result of this free gift and out of gratitude, the person wants to live for, serve, and hnor God with his/her lifen thru proper wholesome conduct and turn ing from the ways of our American Culture which is counter to Gods ways and living.

The person now wants to get involved in growing with other like minded Christians in community so you can grow and help others grow ; plus it gives you constructive things to do instead of being caught up with wordly things and lifestyles.

And God wants us to KNOW we are a saved born again Christian and to profess it ---- its a great priveldge and honor with what God has done for us.

Did this help my Friend ?
 
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graceandpeace

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It is something like that I read about it in a book - called The Atonement - its relation to the Covenant, Priesthood and Intercession of our Lord - Hugh Martin

Although I don't go to a Presbyterian church at the moment, it is the tradition I grew up connected to and this seems to be their theology, though there is likely some variations within the tradition



Is there anything you would recommend as a starting point?

Ok.

It's hard to say, because I don't know where you're coming from, as far as what you've learned over the years.

If you feel uncertain of Christianity's basic tenets, you could just get started with some sort of overview of the religion. Wikipedia has a page, or the local library could direct you to an introductory book.

Most of the world's Christians are accepting of the Nicene Creed and/or the Apostle's Creed, which are ancient creeds summing up Christian beliefs. You could go line by line, researching what is meant, though some are fairly self-explanatory.

These creeds can be easily accessed all over the Internet, but here is a page from my church's site with both listed:

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/page/creeds

From there, it's really up to you. You could read up on Christianity's history, familiarize yourself with some differences between Christian traditions, etc.

Again, I'm not exactly sure what specifically you've encountered that has troubled you or left you confused.

You mentioned difficulty with finding an explanation & someone mentioning TULIP - which is a particular to some Calvinists/those within the Reformed tradition. That is one explanation for understanding human nature & salvation, but it's not one I subscribe to, so I may not be helpful with that.
 
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I 've just been trying to get into a church for a bit but I find myself still critical of churches and christians to be honest.

I used to call myself a christian, and say I was if asked, but now I feel hesitant.
It does sound as though you're more critical of "Christians" than of Christianity or churches. That's not uncommon, but Christians come in all flavors, some good and others not so much so. I'd "second" the thinking of others here that you study the faith itself and not think of being a Christian--or not a Christian--strictly in terms of whom that puts you in association with.
 
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al patitucci

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Ok, a bit of history - I was taken to church services since I was before the age of four. Baptised as an infant, sunday schooled. But I never was really interest in joining youth organisations, the only thing I was willing to do was go to Sunday School. So unlike most teens I was never in a youth fellowship and just stopped going to church during my teens. I went a few times as a teen, completely by myself - unfamiliar churches too. Folks talked to me a bit after the service then pointed at a door and said there's the youth fellowship in there. Well for one thing I wasn't walking in there not knowing anyone! So I drifted. I still listened to loads of CCM music. I wasn't into anything else really (except renting out videos, reading mags ). Pretty depressed at times at not going anywhere and being asked about my weekends, and generally feeling like oddity. So just I just felt a total freak to other christians when they asked me things. Anyway I suppose I should have just got into the youth fellowship and there'd have been no probs. I wanted to be in something, but it never worked out, just my personality I suppose, a bit independent? I seen the "christian" kids at school who were part of christian groups and they didn't impress me much how they got on with each other anyway. Anyway teens can be immature.

So now in my forties and been through some atheistic phases, but really no idea what I quite believe, even though I know about loads of theology.

I 've just been trying to get into a church for a bit but I find myself still critical of churches and christians to be honest.

Why not focus on relationship with Father God and not focus on the short comings of people or churches. The short coming of people and churches will alway be there. Focusing on God who is perfect will never disappoint, it seems like you accepted Jesus as your Savior which means you have a relationship with God. Abba Father always loved you, loves you now and will always love and nothing can change that. Right this very moment God sees you as a beloved son and all he wants to do is pour out His love in you. Let Him love on you. Open up, ask Him, He will show you His love. God did not create love, He is love, it is His nature to love.

If you have not accepted Jesus as your savior. Then just ask Him to come in to your life. Knowing your identity in Christ will allow you see people and church in a different way, you will not wonder am i accepted but know you are. Your focus will not be on yourself but on others. Wanting to share the love the Father has put in you with others. Your focus will be outward not inward.

I can identify with much of what you are feeling, often I've felt the same way, even while pastoring. When I experienced the love of ABBA FATHER that all changed. I know I am love and that makes me want to love others.

God bless you
 
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ViaCrucis

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Ok, a bit of history - I was taken to church services since I was before the age of four. Baptised as an infant, sunday schooled. But I never was really interest in joining youth organisations, the only thing I was willing to do was go to Sunday School. So unlike most teens I was never in a youth fellowship and just stopped going to church during my teens. I went a few times as a teen, completely by myself - unfamiliar churches too. Folks talked to me a bit after the service then pointed at a door and said there's the youth fellowship in there. Well for one thing I wasn't walking in there not knowing anyone! So I drifted. I still listened to loads of CCM music. I wasn't into anything else really (except renting out videos, reading mags ). Pretty depressed at times at not going anywhere and being asked about my weekends, and generally feeling like oddity. So just I just felt a total freak to other christians when they asked me things. Anyway I suppose I should have just got into the youth fellowship and there'd have been no probs. I wanted to be in something, but it never worked out, just my personality I suppose, a bit independent? I seen the "christian" kids at school who were part of christian groups and they didn't impress me much how they got on with each other anyway. Anyway teens can be immature.

So now in my forties and been through some atheistic phases, but really no idea what I quite believe, even though I know about loads of theology.

I 've just been trying to get into a church for a bit but I find myself still critical of churches and christians to be honest.

I used to call myself a christian, and say I was if asked, but now I feel hesitant.

Seeing as you were baptized then you certainly were a Christian at one point. That much can be said, at this point it sounds like you could best be described as a Christian Seeker.

There is a tendency, I think, in some Christian circles to insist that one either is a Christian and believes everything as listed on paper without any lingering doubts or questions, else one is not. The reality is that things are rarely that simple, being a Christian can--and often does--involve the struggle of faith, we read in the Gospel of the man who says to Jesus, "Lord I believe! Help my unbelief!"

As a Lutheran I believe the emphasis of Christian faith must be placed upon external things: Christ, His death and resurrection, the preached Gospel, the Sacraments, etc. As contrasted with internal things: how I feel, my beliefs, my thoughts. So my course of action would be to point you back to your baptism, addressing the promises which God has attached to baptism such as that there is forgiveness of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, union with Christ's death and resurrection, being clothed with Christ, etc. Because baptism is the objective means by which God took Christ's work and applied it to you as free grace, and therefore you can in confidence say, "I am baptized, I belong to God." And this is true because God has declared it to be true. It is here that faith, not in your own ability or power of belief, but in Christ, is cultivated and through continued hearing of God's word, receiving the Lord's supper, confessing of your sins and repentance in these things the Christian life is constituted and faith is created and maintained not by our own strength, but by the Holy Spirit who points us to Christ.

Rely not on yourself, but on Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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dms1972

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Seeing as you were baptized then you certainly were a Christian at one point. That much can be said, at this point it sounds like you could best be described as a Christian Seeker.

There is a tendency, I think, in some Christian circles to insist that one either is a Christian and believes everything as listed on paper without any lingering doubts or questions, else one is not. The reality is that things are rarely that simple, being a Christian can--and often does--involve the struggle of faith, we read in the Gospel of the man who says to Jesus, "Lord I believe! Help my unbelief!"


I was usually asked if I was struggling or was asking questions, if I believed the Bible?, and to be honest I was not sure I believed it all at that point.

I come from a presbyterian background, its always been difficult for me, and at someone point I started to explore Lutheran theology since then I have explored to some extent the thought of Kierkegarrd, Barth, some catholics such as Josef Pieper, Romano Guardini and others in the reformed tradition like RC Sproul, Francis Scheffer. Not sure who else in the mix. I also felt influenced a bit a long the way philosophers like Hegel, and others such as Neitzche.
 
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dms1972

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Some of your (and my) psychological discomfort actually comes from the fact that since we live in America...

I don't live in America, but thanks for your comments which make a lot of sense. Its the "spiritual disconnect" (if that is the right term - not sure how to describe it - its more a feeling of being out of touch with myself. I have found at times particpating in church hymns etc. tends to exasperate it. Which is why I wonder at times if I really believe.
 
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dms1972

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Seeing as you were baptized then you certainly were a Christian at one point.

I am not sure about this - i know it point of difference amongst christians, and I know Luther counselled "remember your baptism" however I was listening last night to a sermon of Martin Lloyd Jones (calvinist) - and hes very much against taking assurance merely from having been baptised.
 
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