Why the Trinity is a False Doctrine

rakovsky · Jan 28, 2016

Gavrilia,

Here is a Trinitarian video I was not able to figure out. (Again, I am not so clever or else I would get these kinds of things.)

But maybe you will be able to understand what he means. I think he is serious. Get back to me on this:

You don't have to watch the whole clip.

Peace.

cgaviria · Jan 28, 2016

rakovsky said:
Certainly not Gaviria!
If I was clever, I would have known what you meant in your post with all the double negatives:
http://www.christianforums.com/goto/post?id=69189259#post-69189259

OK, this is just one more reason why I will never win arguments with you.
If I tell you the obvious difference in their construction as per their floatability it won't matter anyway.

Also I do not have to ask a second time about whether you believe in the Noah Boat Flood story. I will let that one pass too, hermano.

Anyway, getting back to basics what can we discuss... Hmm... OK, so how do you know the resurrection was real and not just made up or a "vision" like Pentecostals have today?

Do you work at a shipyard to give expert knowledge on the difference in construction? Or can we assume that floatability is indeed possible for many different materials and ships of enormous sizes. Did not even Titanic float for whoever long it did, as metal, even heavier than wood? Again, not sounding so clever here going off in this tangent.

I suggest, that instead of making a mockery of valid arguments that have been presented in this study to refute the trinity, and going off on tangents that don't even relate to this thread, that you bring forth your own scriptures proving otherwise - concerning this thread - which is the trinity - which is the topic of this thread - you got it hermano? - make sense amigo?

cgaviria · Jan 28, 2016

rakovsky said:
Yes, I am still confused what you are talking about. This is why I am not so clever. Maybe because it's late. Say it please a little simpler for common people like me.

If Jesus is the Alpha and Omega as per revelations, something existing within created time can say something and Jesus still talked first. Why? Because Jesus is the Alpha.
But I think I missed again in my point because I don't know what you mean.

Peace.

To say that he is the Alpha means that he is the beginning of this heaven and earth, meaning that he began to thus start it. And to say he is the Omega, means he is the ending of this heaven and earth, meaning that he will bring it forth to an end. It is when this heaven and earth ends, that all things will be handed back to the Father. I'm glad you brought this up amigo, yet more stuff proving what I am saying all along.

rakovsky · Jan 28, 2016

cgaviria said:
Do you work at a shipyard to give expert knowledge on the difference in construction? Or can we assume that floatability is indeed possible for many different materials and ships of enormous sizes. Did not even Titanic float for whoever long it did, as metal, even heavier than wood? Again, not sounding so clever here going off in this tangent.

I suggest, that instead of making a mockery of valid arguments that have been presented in this study to refute the trinity, and going off on tangents that don't even relate to this thread, that you bring forth your own scriptures proving otherwise - concerning this thread - which is the trinity - which is the topic of this thread - you got it hermano? - make sense amigo?

Hmmm... Now you are playing hardball.
You must remember that the Holy Writ speaks in prophecy only to those of highest faith and in the Church who can be given the keys and taken the cloud from their mind like the travelers to Emmaus.
Well, think of this. Why is it three days in the tomb?
Why was Moses on one side and Elijah on another - a Trinity?
This goes back to the resurrection - one criminal crucified on each side - another trinity around Jesus.

I think in truth your mind seeks the true mystery and you are not satisfied with official churchdom. You want to open up the secrets of truth.

To the Glory of Triune God.

rakovsky · Jan 28, 2016

cgaviria said:
To say that he is the Alpha means that he is the beginning of this heaven and earth, meaning that he began to thus start it. And to say he is the Omega, means he is the ending of this heaven and earth, meaning that he will bring it forth to an end. It is when this heaven and earth ends, that all things will be handed back to the Father. I'm glad you brought this up amigo, yet more stuff proving what I am saying all along.

And I suppose in your view that when he says he is the Omega it means he will also turn into nothing once the world ends, even though he said that after the world is destroyed he will have the second coming?

Like I said, I cannot win.
Now I will take a break.

To the glory of Triune God.

cgaviria · Jan 28, 2016

rakovsky said:
Hmmm... Now you are playing hardball.
You must remember that the Holy Writ speaks in prophecy only to those of highest faith and in the Church who can be given the keys and taken the cloud from their mind like the travelers to Emmaus.
Well, think of this. Why is it three days in the tomb?
Why was Moses on one side and Elijah on another - a Trinity?
This goes back to the resurrection - one criminal crucified on each side - another trinity around Jesus.

I think in truth your mind seeks the true mystery and you are not satisfied with official churchdom. You want to open up the secrets of truth.

To the Glory of Triune God.

I serve One God, not a Triune God. God is not divided, he is one.

cgaviria · Jan 28, 2016

rakovsky said:
And I suppose in your view that when he says he is the Omega it means he will also turn into nothing once the world ends, even though he said that after the world is destroyed he will have the second coming?

Like I said, I cannot win.
Now I will take a break.

To the glory of Triune God.

His authority over the kingdom will indeed come to an end, and then will be handed back to the Father in the new heaven and new earth.

Commander Xenophon · Jan 28, 2016

cgaviria said:
Because "all" is referring to all beings, not all things. You are making it out to be things, yet the correct interpretation of "all" should be all that are alive. It should read like this,

"All through him existed..."

No, because Panta does mean "all things" in this context. Indeed, in many places where we find "all things" in English, the Greek is "panta," which a quick gander at a concordance will demonstrate.

That is the correct translation. When you add "things", you are now contradicting the Genesis account clearly demonstrating that all things were not created by Jesus, because water had already existed before he began speaking.

The idea that water is uncreated is laughable; it is disproven not only by John 1:3, but by many other verses.

Common man, be smart.

Immodestly perhaps, I like to think that I am. However, if you disagree, there are plenty of other very intelligent people besides myself, like @rakovsky, who are making essentially the same argument.

Commander Xenophon · Jan 28, 2016

cgaviria said:
I serve One God, not a Triune God. God is not divided, he is one.

We do not teach that God is divided; the persons of the Holy Trinity are not "divisions" of God.

rakovsky · Jan 28, 2016

cgaviria said:
His authority over the kingdom will indeed come to an end, and then will be handed back to the Father in the new heaven and new earth.

So when it talks about him as alpha it means his creation, but omega is his authority only going away and his staying? It would be more consistent to say his authority on the earth started at alpha and ended at omega. OR that alpha and omega referred to the first and last being - God.

But forgive me, I said I was taking for a break and that I cannot win.

To the glory of Triune God.

Strong in Him · Jan 29, 2016

cgaviria said:
I serve One God, not a Triune God. God is not divided, he is one.

Which is why I am puzzled when you say that Jesus is God and was MADE God, and why the Spirit is God and there is an unequal trinity.

You don't believe that Jesus was God from the beginning or when he was on earth; ok, skip over that for the moment. Jesus is God - you said so a few posts back and have done so in other posts. So the question is, how can this be if there is only ONE God?

Either there are 3 Gods, or God is divided into 3 or the 3 have to be one, there is no other explanation. If Jesus and the Spirit are God and there is only one God, then the 3 are one. That is what the trinity is all about. One God, a triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

cgaviria · Jan 29, 2016

Strong in Him said:
Which is why I am puzzled when you say that Jesus is God and was MADE God, and why the Spirit is God and there is an unequal trinity.

You don't believe that Jesus was God from the beginning or when he was on earth; ok, skip over that for the moment. Jesus is God - you said so a few posts back and have done so in other posts. So the question is, how can this be if there is only ONE God?

Either there are 3 Gods, or God is divided into 3 or the 3 have to be one, there is no other explanation. If Jesus and the Spirit are God and there is only one God, then the 3 are one. That is what the trinity is all about. One God, a triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Seems like I need to draw this out for you to understand.

God the Father, Almighty, cannot be contained by creation, predetermines, knows all things even the number of hairs on your head. Founded the heavens and the earth.

THEN

God Jesus Christ. Birthed into existence in the beginning. Highest of all created beings and express image of the Father, yet lesser than the Father. Created things in the heavens and upon the earth through speech. Was the spirit of God upon the water that then began speaking, and the Father and this spirit of God were the two witnesses that existed in the beginning.

THEN

God angels. Birthed into existence on day 4 of creation when the luminaries of the heaven came into existence. Lesser than Jesus Christ, and lesser than the Father. These angels take on different forms, which includes taking the form of spirit, which is "air", and angels that are of God are thus called "holy spirit", and inhabit the body of believers by entering the breath and living inside a believer.

Goatee · Jan 29, 2016

cgaviria said:
Seems like I need to draw this out for you to understand.

God the Father, Almighty, cannot be contained by creation, predetermines, knows all things even the number of hairs on your head. Founded the heavens and the earth.

THEN

God Jesus Christ. Birthed into existence in the beginning. Highest of all created beings and express image of the Father, yet lesser than the Father. Created things in the heavens and upon the earth through speech. Was the spirit of God upon the water that then began speaking, and the Father and this spirit of God were the two witnesses that existed in the beginning.

THE

God angels. Birthed into existence on day 4 of creation when the luminaries of the heaven came into existence. Lesser than Jesus Christ, and lesser than the Father. These angels take on different forms, which includes taking the form of spirit, which is "air", and angels that are of God are thus called "holy spirit", and inhabit the body of believers by entering the breath and living inside a believer.

Your interpretation of scripture is really twisted buddy!

Strong in Him · Jan 29, 2016

cgaviria said:
Seems like I need to draw this out for you to understand.

God the Father, Almighty, cannot be contained by creation, predetermines, knows all things even the number of hairs on your head. Founded the heavens and the earth.

THEN

God Jesus Christ. Birthed into existence in the beginning. Highest of all created beings and express image of the Father, yet lesser than the Father. Created things in the heavens and upon the earth through speech. Was the spirit of God upon the water that then began speaking, and the Father and this spirit of God were the two witnesses that existed in the beginning.

This is not Scriptural.
What do you mean "THEN"? If you are saying that God the Father came first, then the Son came next and the two still exist now, you are saying that there are two Gods; the Father and the Son. If you are saying that the Father was in the beginning but there is only one God now, then he must have somehow ceased to be when God the Son came along - which is not at all Scriptural; not even hinted at.

cgaviria said:
God angels. Birthed into existence on day 4 of creation when the luminaries of the heaven came into existence. Lesser than Jesus Christ, and lesser than the Father. These angels take on different forms, which includes taking the form of spirit, which is "air", and angels that are of God are thus called "holy spirit", and inhabit the body of believers by entering the breath and living inside a believer.

Nope, this isn't Scriptural either.
In the OT the prophets constantly say that they are led, and speak, by the Spirit of the Lord, or the Spirit of God. The Spirit of the Lord came upon Saul when he was anointed as king, and David prayed "do not take YOUR Holy Spirit from me".
Jesus told his disciples that because he was going away he would send the Holy Spirit to them, John 16:7. He said that the Holy Spirit would lead them into truth, John 16:13 and testify to Jesus, John 16:14-15. He later told them to wait until the Holy Spirit came upon them, Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4-4, 8.

Angels are created beings - even fallen angels - and NOT the holy spirit. God, can live in us by HIS Holy Spirit. It is God who lives, or can live, inside us; not a created angel.

Nowhere does Scripture say what you are teaching.

cgaviria · Jan 29, 2016

Strong in Him said:
This is not Scriptural.
What do you mean "THEN"? If you are saying that God the Father came first, then the Son came next and the two still exist now, you are saying that there are two Gods; the Father and the Son. If you are saying that the Father was in the beginning but there is only one God now, then he must have somehow ceased to be when God the Son came along - which is not at all Scriptural; not even hinted at.

Nope, this isn't Scriptural either.
In the OT the prophets constantly say that they are led, and speak, by the Spirit of the Lord, or the Spirit of God. The Spirit of the Lord came upon Saul when he was anointed as king, and David prayed "do not take YOUR Holy Spirit from me".
Jesus told his disciples that because he was going away he would send the Holy Spirit to them, John 16:7. He said that the Holy Spirit would lead them into truth, John 16:13 and testify to Jesus, John 16:14-15. He later told them to wait until the Holy Spirit came upon them, Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4-4, 8.

Angels are created beings - even fallen angels - and NOT the holy spirit. God, can live in us by HIS Holy Spirit. It is God who lives, or can live, inside us; not a created angel.

Nowhere does Scripture say what you are teaching.

There are many scriptures proving what I am saying. Maybe if I feel like it I'll share them with you directly. Otherwise you're on your own, I have posted the studies having all the scriptures proving what I am saying.

OldShepherd · Jan 29, 2016

stevenfrancis · Jan 29, 2016

Strong in Him said:
The doctrine of the trinity isn't based on just 2 verses, but on the fact that Scripture says the Father is divine, the Son is divine and the Spirit, God's Spirit, is divine. Yet there is only one God, not three.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth ................. and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Genesis 1:1-2
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him, all things were made ....." John 1:1-3.
"Then God said, 'let us make man in our own image'," Genesis 1:26
"Then I heard the voice of God saying, 'whom shall I send and who will go for us?' " Isaiah 6:8
Jesus said, "Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began", John 17:5.

To quote just a few.

Thank you. This is correct. The "trinity" (though not defined specifically by the Church until 381), like all dogmas/doctrines of the Christian faith became a doctrine /dogma in defense of what was believed by the Christians community by the teaching of Jesus, His Apostles, the Church Fathers etc. from the beginning. Definition as dogma happens when challenges occur to assumed doctrine. The Trinity is essential to Christianity. Without it, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, by the nature of man's mind begin to be assigned "less divinity" than the Father. I any of these three persons of the one Godhead had a diminished divinity, you end up with a different religion than Christianity. It is fundamental that Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, The Father is God. The three persons are one, and are God. Whenever a group begins to assign a diminished role to one of these, they fall into heresy, and the Church experiences a division. The Church is to be one. Anyway, a great, pithy post. Thank you, and may God bless.

Strong in Him · Jan 29, 2016

cgaviria said:
There are many scriptures proving what I am saying. Maybe if I feel like it I'll share them with you directly. Otherwise you're on your own, I have posted the studies having all the scriptures proving what I am saying.

If there ARE many Scriptures proving what you are saying, then Scripture contradicts itself; I don't believe that.
If there are Scriptures which appear to illustrate what you are saying, then you have misunderstood them.

In Genesis 1:2, the Spirit of God is mentioned - already present at the creation of the universe.
In Genesis 1:14-19, God created sun, moon and stars - lights in the sky to separate day from night. Nothing about "God angels" that were in fact individual Holy Spirits.

The Spirit of God/Spirit of the Lord is mentioned often in Scripture. He was with, and rested upon, people in the OT but was not able to come and live IN people until after Pentecost, when he was poured out on all believers in fulfilment of a prophecy by Joel, Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17.
There are lots of references in Scripture to angels, messengers of God who are sent to make announcements, or maybe to protect and help people. They are NOT the Holy Spirit. Centuries ago, before the world was even made, Lucifer, an angel, rebelled against God and was thrown out of heaven, and those angels who joined in this rebellion went with him. So angels were given the ability to choose as well and were not even all perfect.

Your "hierarchy" is wrong; it should be:
God - triune, Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Angels - and presumably Cherabim and Seraphim too
Mankind.

cgaviria · Jan 29, 2016

Strong in Him said:
If there ARE many Scriptures proving what you are saying, then Scripture contradicts itself; I don't believe that.
If there are Scriptures which appear to illustrate what you are saying, then you have misunderstood them.

In Genesis 1:2, the Spirit of God is mentioned - already present at the creation of the universe.
In Genesis 1:14-19, God created sun, moon and stars - lights in the sky to separate day from night. Nothing about "God angels" that were in fact individual Holy Spirits.

The Spirit of God/Spirit of the Lord is mentioned often in Scripture. He was with, and rested upon, people in the OT but was not able to come and live IN people until after Pentecost, when he was poured out on all believers in fulfilment of a prophecy by Joel, Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17.
There are lots of references in Scripture to angels, messengers of God who are sent to make announcements, or maybe to protect and help people. They are NOT the Holy Spirit. Centuries ago, before the world was even made, Lucifer, an angel, rebelled against God and was thrown out of heaven, and those angels who joined in this rebellion went with him. So angels were given the ability to choose as well and were not even all perfect.

Your "hierarchy" is wrong; it should be:
God - triune, Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Angels - and presumably Cherabim and Seraphim too
Mankind.

The scriptures do not contradict with what I have said, but they do certainly contradict in what you say. The spirit of God in Genesis 1:2 was Jesus Christ, this was the evidence of the pre-existant Jesus in the Genesis account, and this was the spirit of God that then began speaking. When this spirit of God first uttered "let there be light", this light began radiating from himself, and he literally became the light of the world (John 8:12), as the luminaries of the heaven had not yet come into existence until day 4.

Genesis 1:14 is when angels came into existence, day 4, because angels are associated with stars (Revelation 12:4).

All angels are also spirits. (Hebrews 1:14)

All angels that are of God are holy spirits (Isaiah 63:9-10), or spirits that are holy, or spirits of God, they all mean the same thing. that they come from God, and "spirit" describes a form that angels can take (Psalm 104:4), as the English word "spirit" is synonymous with "air, wind" (http://biblehub.com/greek/4151.htm), and in becoming in the form of air, they can then inhabit human bodies by entering through the breath.

So in having holy spirit inside a believer, it is an angel that has taken the form of holy spirit, and thus inhabits the body of a believer.

Chriliman · Jan 29, 2016

cgaviria said:
The scriptures do not contradict with what I have said, but they do certainly contradict in what you say. The spirit of God in Genesis 1:2 was Jesus Christ, this was the evidence of the pre-existant Jesus in the Genesis account, and this was the spirit of God that then began speaking. When this spirit of God first uttered "let there be light", this light began radiating from himself, and he literally became the light of the world (John 8:12), as the luminaries of the heaven had not yet come into existence until day 4.

Genesis 1:14 is when angels came into existence, day 4, because angels are associated with stars (Revelation 12:4).

All angels are also spirits. (Hebrews 1:14)

All angels that are of God are holy spirits (Isaiah 63:9-10), or spirits that are holy, or spirits of God, they all mean the same thing. that they come from God, and "spirit" describes a form that angels can take (Psalm 104:4), as the English word "spirit" is synonymous with "air, wind" (http://biblehub.com/greek/4151.htm), and in becoming in the form of air, they can then inhabit human bodies by entering through the breath.

So in having holy spirit inside a believer, it is an angel that has taken the form of holy spirit, and thus inhabits the body of a believer.

Would you agree that God can be thought of as a triunity? In that God the Father is the eternal source and His word is Jesus, who became flesh, that all might repent and believe in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit which draws men to love and obey the Father. All 3 aspects of God work in perfect unison to complete His perfect will.

From our perspective we require this understanding to know God, but from God's perspective He is "I AM". Every word He speaks is true and is only uttered to give understanding and glorify Himself.

Isaiah 48:9–11
“For my name’s sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off. 10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction. 11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."

Why the Trinity is a False Doctrine

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