The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

EmSw said:

Yes, yes, yes! I believe what the Bible says.



Is being accepted by God good news?

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It's a bit overdue, but now I've added you to my ignore list, as there is no possibility for serious discussion.

thatbrian said:

It's a bit overdue, but now I've added you to my ignore list, as there is no possibliity serious discussion.

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LOL, I've seen this behavior plenty times. Walk away with my blessings.

Yes, Jesus failed on the cross, we know, we know.

jonnox777 said:

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternal-security.htm

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For any anti-OSAS folks who would like to rational discuss this further, I have a few question for you starting with three regarding Gal 5:1.

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." (Gal 5:1)

What does Paul want his listeners to stand firm against?

Set us free from what?

What does Paul mean by "the yoke of slavery"?

The irony is, if there is a danger, the people in danger are the very ones who think that they are justified by the law.

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (Galatians 5:4 ESV)

Paul had the harshest words to say about the Galatian church, yet to the Corinthians, who were a wild bunch, Paul addressed them this way:

thatbrian said:

For any anti-OSAS folks who would like to rational discuss this further, I have a few question for you starting with three regarding Gal 5:1.

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." (Gal 5:1)

What does Paul want his listeners to stand firm against?

Set us free from what?

What does Paul mean by "the yoke of slavery"?

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Sin!

thatbrian said:

The irony is, the people in danger are the very ones who think that they are justified by the law.

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (Galatians 5:4 ESV)

Paul had the harshest words to say about the Galatian church, yet to the Corinthians who were a wild bunch, Paul addressed them this way:

I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Corinthians 1:4-9 ESV)

However, this is how he addressed the Galatian church:

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— (Galatians 1:6 ESV)​

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Not very encouraging for OSAS bunch.

jonnox777 said:

Link with no comments

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This link looks like the work of Satan attacking Bible truth.

-57 said:

I had to laugh at the web site. Seriously.

The big scripture.....But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

That scripture is often plucked from Matt 24:13.

3 questions you need to ask.
1)Endures what?
2)The end of what?
3)Saved from what?

Those 3 questions must be answered within the context of the surrounding scripture.

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What is the Bible primarily concerned about? How one can do evil and still be accepted by Him? No. I just do not see that pattern of truth taught in the Bible. The Bible is concerned about a person being right with God (by letting God transform their heart and lives so as to be holy and righteous by their faith in the Lord). The context in Matthew 24:13 is clearly talking about salvation. How so?

Jesus says,

"Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Matthew 24:4-5).

So what is the context of those who are false Christ's in the end deceiving many?

Jesus says this,

"And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."
(Matthew 24:10-12).

Okay, so we know there will be false Christ's deceiving many people. But how? What do the results look like?

Well, the following words of Jesus says,

#1. Many shall betray one another and hate one another.
#2. Because of iniquity (sin) shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

This is the context right before verse 13 that says he that endures to the End shall be saved.

The context is concerned with one's behavior and not in some kind of sin and still be saved type belief.
Are you still not convinced?

Let's keep reading Matthew 24.

Jesus says,

"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
(Matthew 24:38-39).

Jesus continues to say,

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 24:44-51).

Well, after reading this, I do not see a "sin and still be saved" type doctrine. On the contrary, I see Jesus saying "blessed" is the the type of servant (verse 46) who is faithful and wise (verse 45) and who is ready (verse 44). This implies a condition on the part of the servant.

This is then contrasted with the unfaithful servant who begins to smite his fellow servants and whereby he will eat and drink with those who are drunk. Drunk here is speaking "drunk" spiritually in how they are living for themselves and not for God. For they shall have their portion amongst the hypocrites. Why? Well, the Bible already warns us about how there will be those in the last day who have a form of Godliness but they deny the power thereof and they will be living in certain kinds of sins (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

Even Peter says,

"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;" (2 Peter 2:5-6).

The context of those who "live ungodly" here is in view of their "sin" see 2 Peter 2:4.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Noah was not a preacher of unrighteousness in teaching people that they can sin and still be saved. In fact, the whole point of the global flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha are examples to all those who shall live ungodly or in their sin. Again, this is a "condition" upon how one is living in relation to God's wrath. If a person is living ungodly, they will face God's Wrath. There are no exceptions to a certain group of believers here who can live ungodly and yet somehow be saved.

Also, in Matthew 7, Jesus says we will know false prophets by their fruits. Fruits are deeds.
Peter also warns us about false prophets in 2 Peter chapter 2. He says they have eyes full adultery who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:14).


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drstevej said:

"whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:30
OJSG
Once Justified Surely Glorified.

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I do not see a "sin and still be saved" type teaching in either Romans 8:30 or Romans chapter 8.

For who are the ones being spoken of who are "called" in Romans 8:30?

28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

So the ones who are called and justified are the one who LOVE God.

Do you still need proof? Let's keep reading,

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
(Romans 8:1).

Many Bible versions eliminate the part of the verse above that says, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" so as to not being under the "Condemnation."

But this is the crucial point of Romans 8 is trying to make, though (in regards to not being under the "Condemnation").

How so?

Romans says,

"...the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:4-8).

Is not sinning being carnally minded?
Is not a carnal mind at enmity against God?
Is not one who thinks they can sin and still be saved living in the flesh?
Or do you think that such a person who thinks they can (with the thinking they are saved) are being led by God?
How can that be?
How can God agree with a person's sin?
Would that not make God unrighteous?
Would not God lead a person into a life of holiness?


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Job8 said:

This link looks like the work of Satan attacking Bible truth.

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Right. Because Satan is really concerned about believers living holy and righteous versus those believers who think they can sin and still be saved.

For what does the Bible say about those who do sin or evil or those who hate their brothers?


For there are those who are blinded who have given themselves over to lasciviousness and who work uncleanness with greediness. But we have not so learned such a thing in Christ. For we are told to be ye angry and sin not so as not to give place to the devil.





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Jason0047 said:

What is the Bible primarily concerned about? How one can do evil and still be accepted by Him? No. I just do not see that pattern of truth taught in the Bible. The Bible is concerned about a person being right with God (by letting God transform their heart and lives so as to be holy and righteous by their faith in the Lord). The context in Matthew 24:13 is clearly talking about salvation. How so?

Jesus says,

"Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Matthew 24:4-5).

So what is the context of those who are false Christ's in the end deceiving many?

Jesus says this,

"And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."
(Matthew 24:10-12).

Okay, so we know there will be false Christ's deceiving many people. But how? What do the results look like?

Well, the following words of Jesus says,

#1. Many shall betray one another and hate one another.
#2. Because of iniquity (sin) shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

This is the context right before verse 13 that says he that endures to the End shall be saved.

The context is concerned with one's behavior and not in some kind of sin and still be saved type belief.
Are you still not convinced?

Let's keep reading Matthew 24.

Jesus says,

"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
(Matthew 24:38-39).

Jesus continues to say,

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 24:44-51).

Well, after reading this, I do not see a "sin and still be saved" type doctrine. On the contrary, I see Jesus saying "blessed" is the the type of servant (verse 46) who is faithful and wise (verse 45) and who is ready (verse 44). This implies a condition on the part of the servant.

This is then contrasted with the unfaithful servant who begins to smite his fellow servants and whereby he will eat and drink with those who are drunk. Drunk here is speaking "drunk" spiritually in how they are living for themselves and not for God. For they shall have their portion amongst the hypocrites. Why? Well, the Bible already warns us about how there will be those in the last day who have a form of Godliness but they deny the power thereof and they will be living in certain kinds of sins (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

Even Peter says,

"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;" (2 Peter 2:5-6).

The context of those who "live ungodly" here is in view of their "sin" see 2 Peter 2:4.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Noah was not a preacher of unrighteousness in teaching people that they can sin and still be saved. In fact, the whole point of the global flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha are examples to all those who shall live ungodly or in their sin. Again, this is a "condition" upon how one is living in relation to God's wrath. If a person is living ungodly, they will face God's Wrath. There are no exceptions to a certain group of believers here who can live ungodly and yet somehow be saved.

Also, in Matthew 7, Jesus says we will know false prophets by their fruits. Fruits are deeds.
Peter also warns us about false prophets in 2 Peter chapter 2. He says they have eyes full adultery who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:14).


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Your post is all well and good...but didn't support what I posted.
This verse is always taken out of context.....But the one who endures to the end will be saved"...

Go read around the verse. What is the chapter speaking about?
Three questions...Endures what? End of what? Saved from what?

Jason0047 said:

Right. Because Satan is really concerned about believers living holy and righteous versus those believers who think they can sin and still be saved.

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So, let me ask you this.....why have you condemned yourself to Hell?
Are you a believer? Do you ever sin? Answer yes once and according to what you posted you sin and now can't be saved.

-57 said:

Your post is all well and good...but didn't support what I posted.
This verse is always taken out of context.....But the one who endures to the end will be saved"...

Go read around the verse. What is the chapter speaking about?
Three questions...Endures what? End of what? Saved from what?

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I explained what verse 13 was talking about using the actual verses that surrounded it. Clearly the topic is salvation because it contrasts the faithful servant with being rewarded and the evil servant with having their portion amongst the hypocrites. Jesus did not favor those Pharisees in whom he called hypocrites. The Bible tells us a certain way to live. If one lives contrary to that and says to follow the Bible, they are being a hypocrite because they are not doing what the Bible actually says and they are telling others to follow a book that tells them to live righteously when they are not doing so themselves.

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-57 said:

So, let me ask you this.....why have you condemned yourself to Hell?
Are you a believer? Do you ever sin? Answer yes once and according to what you posted you sin and now can't be saved.

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I do not live in a lifestyle of habitual sin and nor do I make excuses so as to sin in the future with the thinking I will automatically be saved if I do sin. God cannot agree with a person's thinking that they will sin at some point in the future and they can just get away with that sin. God is Holy and righteous. Yes, God understands that people can honestly struggle with sin. But there comes a point where the believer will overcome the sin in their walk with God because Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil in a believer's life (And not just at the cross) (See 1 John 3:8). The best analogy I can give you is that of an alcholic who joins a drug program so as to become sober and free from his addiction to alchohol. If an alcoholic who joins a program to honestly become sober and free from alcohol stumbles on his road to recovery, he is not making an excuse so as to live a life of being drunk because he will in time overcome that sin. But if the alcoholic had an OSAS mind set going into the program, they would then think they could drink the rest of their lives on occasion and still claim they are sober and free from their addiction to alcohol. But we both know that if an alcoholic were to do that, he would only be deceiving himself.

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thatbrian said:

The irony is, if there is a danger, the people in danger are the very ones who think that they are justified by the law.

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (Galatians 5:4 ESV)

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In the book of Romans, and Galatians, Paul talks about the heresy of those who are trying to be circumcised so as to be right with God. Just do a key word search at https://www.blueletterbible.org on the words "circumcise" and "circumcised" and it will be become obvious that is the context Paul is using in reference to the word "Law." In other words, Paul is not talking about ALL Law in general whatsoever. Paul is talking about the Law of Moses or those who are trying to go back and be justified by the Old Law because he is talking about those who are trying to be "circumcised" so as to be right with God.

God is not against those who continue to in well doing under Commands given to them in the New Testament.

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" (Romans 2:7).

"And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." (Galatians 6:9).


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Tiny Bible said:

Yes, Jesus failed on the cross, we know, we know.

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Jesus did not die on the cross so as to let Christians live in their sin with the thinking they are saved. That would be the real failure if such were the case because that would mean God would have to:


For did God win battles in the Old Testament for his people? Do you think God can win the battle over sin in a believer's life? Apparently by what you have said so for, it is giving me the impression that you do not think that a believer can overcome their sin in this life. It sounds like you believe God's people are slaves to sin and not slaves to righteousness. But if that is what you believe (and I pray that is not the case), then please re-read Romans chapter 6 again in close prayer with God.

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Jason0047 said:

I do not see a "sin and still be saved" type teaching in either Romans 8:30 or Romans chapter 8.

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Actually, it's found in v.38-39 of that chapter of that book.

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing,will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

iow, the future is covered by the phrase "things to come". So, NO MATTER what occurs in the future, the one who has believed will not be separated from the love of Christ.

But, if these verses don't convince one that sinning will NOT result in loss of salvation, consider 1 Thess 5:4-10.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis:
v.4 & 5 contrasts believers (sons of light and of day) with unbelievers, (of night or darkness).
v.6 is an admonition to NOT live as unbelievers (not sleep as others do) but to be alert and sober.
v.7 describes in general the lifestyles of unbelievers.
v.8 we are to live according to our saved state: be sober, having faith and love, and the confidence of salvation
v.9 tells us that God has NOT destined believers for wrath, but for salvation.
v.10 Paul explains that regardless of lifestyle (whether we are awake-living for Christ or asleep-living like unbelievers) we WILL LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM

This passage is clear; our lifestyle will NOT change our destiny for salvation.

Now, for those who reject eternal security, please explain EACH verse to show how my analysis is wrong.

Tiny Bible said:

2 Peter 2:7-9

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I don't see how that passage helps the idea of a sin and still be saved doctrine. It is talking about how God knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and how Lot was vexed by the filthiness of the conversations of those sinful people around him.

In fact, read 2 Peter 2:14 (Which is context to the false prophets in 2 Peter 2:1). It says that these false prophets had eyes full of adultery who cannot cease from sin. Is it a coincidence that the majority of OSAS proponents today all claim that no beleiver can cease from sin in this life?


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