God without time (moved)

Not_By_Chance · Jan 23, 2016

I have some questions, which although they can’t be answered to any degree of certainty, I would like to ask them anyway. It’s aimed primarily at Christians and those of the Jewish faith.

Let me set the scene. I have no problem with believing that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” as described in Genesis 1 and it fits nicely with what Einstein later discovered in his work on relativity. What I can’t seem to comprehend though is what came before God created.

We could say that there was just God + nothing, where nothing is “what rocks dream about” to quote Aristotle (I actually think that is a pretty good definition of nothing myself). So one might be tempted to ask, what was God doing before He created the universe, which naturally leads on to how long was He doing it for? But, it doesn’t make sense to ask that, because there was no time before God created it. Also, God can’t be infinite in time, if time itself is finite, so by what method can we use to describe the period of God’s existence before creation, since we can’t use time?

Jfrsmth · Jan 23, 2016

Not_By_Chance said:
...it fits nicely with what Einstein later discovered in his work on relativity. What I can’t seem to comprehend though is what came before God created.

Sorry, maybe off-topic, but could you elaborate more on this?

juvenissun · Jan 23, 2016

Not_By_Chance said:
I have some questions, which although they can’t be answered to any degree of certainty, I would like to ask them anyway. It’s aimed primarily at Christians and those of the Jewish faith.

Let me set the scene. I have no problem with believing that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” as described in Genesis 1 and it fits nicely with what Einstein later discovered in his work on relativity. What I can’t seem to comprehend though is what came before God created.

We could say that there was just God + nothing, where nothing is “what rocks dream about” to quote Aristotle (I actually think that is a pretty good definition of nothing myself). So one might be tempted to ask, what was God doing before He created the universe, which naturally leads on to how long was He doing it for? But, it doesn’t make sense to ask that, because there was no time before God created it. Also, God can’t be infinite in time, if time itself is finite, so by what method can we use to describe the period of God’s existence before creation, since we can’t use time?

Is the concept of time valid at the center of a black hole?

Not_By_Chance · Jan 24, 2016

Jfrsmth said:
Sorry, maybe off-topic, but could you elaborate more on this?

Well, didn't Einstein say that time and space and matter are all inter-dependent and that it's not possible to have one without the other? So when God created "In the beginning..." that was the start of time and "...the heavens and the earth" was the space and matter.

Not_By_Chance · Jan 24, 2016

juvenissun said:
Is the concept of time valid at the center of a black hole?

No idea, but I'm not talking about black holes, I'm talking about the nothing before God created.

SkyWriting · Jan 24, 2016

Not_By_Chance said:
So one might be tempted to ask, what was God doing before He created the universe, which naturally leads on to how long was He doing it for? But, it doesn’t make sense to ask that, because there was no time before God created it. Also, God can’t be infinite in time, if time itself is finite, so by what method can we use to describe the period of God’s existence before creation, since we can’t use time?

Time didn't exist until God created it.
I AM
is your answer.

juvenissun · Jan 24, 2016

Not_By_Chance said:
No idea, but I'm not talking about black holes, I'm talking about the nothing before God created.

I know. I am thinking about a "place" where time is not a meaningful concept. I think at the center of a blackhole, the concept of space is obscure too. However, even both are true, it is still just a "point" with that nature.

Before the creation, there was no time nor space. I don't think we can imagine that conditions, needless to think about activity in that conditions.

This is why I am extremely amazed by the first three words of the Bible: "In the beginning ...". It is simply out of this world.

Not_By_Chance · Jan 24, 2016

juvenissun said:
This is why I am extremely amazed by the first three words of the Bible: "In the beginning ...". It is simply out of this world.

I agree. I suppose we just have to accept that God's ways are higher than our ways (infinitely high I guess) and there are some things that our feeble finite minds cannot understand. It doesn't stop us pondering the biq questions though, which is one of the many things that sets up far apart from the other creatures on this planet, because we are made in the image of God and therefore have some of the Creator's attributes. The more I look at the universe and what God has made, the more I am in awe. For instance, just imagine the power of the heat and light a few feet above the sun's surface. Yet there are stars that are millions of times brighter than our sun and even they are only a speck in the grand scheme of things. So how humbled we are when we think that the Creator of all this became a man and spent time walking amongst us on our little planet and even allowed Himself to be executed in a horrible way, so that we could be saved from the sins that began in the Garden of Eden, many thousands of years earlier.

joshua 1 9 · Jan 24, 2016

Not_By_Chance said:
I have some questions, which although they can’t be answered to any degree of certainty, I would like to ask them anyway. It’s aimed primarily at Christians and those of the Jewish faith.

Let me set the scene. I have no problem with believing that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” as described in Genesis 1 and it fits nicely with what Einstein later discovered in his work on relativity. What I can’t seem to comprehend though is what came before God created.

We could say that there was just God + nothing, where nothing is “what rocks dream about” to quote Aristotle (I actually think that is a pretty good definition of nothing myself). So one might be tempted to ask, what was God doing before He created the universe, which naturally leads on to how long was He doing it for? But, it doesn’t make sense to ask that, because there was no time before God created it. Also, God can’t be infinite in time, if time itself is finite, so by what method can we use to describe the period of God’s existence before creation, since we can’t use time?

In the beginning you had quirks and the quirks became electrons, protons and neutrons. By the time the Universe is about 10 microseconds old, protons and neutrons exist in roughly equal numbers. For now quirks are just do small for us to study but they are working on that with the hadron collider.

Not_By_Chance · Jan 24, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
In the beginning you had quirks and the quirks became electrons, protons and neutrons. By the time the Universe is about 10 microseconds old, protons and neutrons exist in roughly equal numbers. For now quirks are just do small for us to study but they are working on that with the hadron collider.

We are told "In the beginning God...", so if there were indeed quirks, then God must have made those first, before He started on His main acts of creation. I don't and can't possibly know how He did it all, but I do believe He did and that He was before any quirks or whatever. Perhaps we'll get chance to ask Him when we see Him in all His glory.

joshua 1 9 · Jan 24, 2016

Not_By_Chance said:
We are told "In the beginning God...", so if there were indeed quirks, then God must have made those first, before He started on His main acts of creation. I don't and can't possibly know how He did it all, but I do believe He did and that He was before any quirks or whatever. Perhaps we'll get chance to ask Him when we see Him in all His glory.

You have the first two words in the Bible: Beginning & God. Sense this is the very first word in the Bible I think it deserves to have a little bit of effort put into understanding what this word: "beginning" really means. The best way to do that is to look at all the places the word "beginning" is used in the Bible. First we look at the use of that word in that chapter, then we look at the use of that word in the rest of the book. Then we can look at the way Moses uses the word in all the books he wrote. We see beginning can mean firstborn, we see beginning can mean firstfruit. This is interesting to me because God does not consider when a seed sprouts the beginning, he considers the beginning when the tree produces fruit. Also beginning can mean their best.

So beginning can mean:

beginning
first
chief
choice part

Next we look at context. (We ask who wrote this: Moses wrote this for us. Who was Moses talking to, who was his primary or first audience. Then we ask what is the message in this for us today.) It is interesting that we have three words: "beginning" "God", "Created" First we look at the use of the word: "created" in Genesis ch 1 and we see Moses used it three time. In the first verse where God created the "heaven and the earth". Next we see where God created the Great Whales in verse 21 and God created man in verse 27. Now with all that is new in Genesis chapter one why is the word created only used three times? For the great whale and man. What does the whale and man have in common? I venture to suggest that a whale is a mammal, they breath air and they feed their babies milk.

Now for a surprise there is a word that is not translated in the Hebrew. That word is: "eth". This word is used twice in Genesis chapter one. The other use is in verse 4 when God "saw" the light and then He divided the light and the darkness. The next time we see this word is in Genesis chapter 4 when Adam "knew" Eve his wife. After that the word is used in Gen 5:22 when "Enoch walked with God after he begat H853 Methuselah". Then in Gen 19:13 "For we will destroy H853 this place". Gen 37:23 "they stript H853 Joseph out of his coat" and finally in Gen 47:23 "Then Joseph said unto the people, Behold, I have bought H853 you this day and your land for Pharaoh: lo, here is seed for you, and ye shall sow the land."

So the first three words in the Bible is really four words. Actually the first sentence is really seven (7) words. There is another hidden word between Heaven and Earth that is not translated. Maybe we can talk about that next time. If there are seven words here for our consideration then this would require seven books to be written to talk about and explain those seven words that make up the very first statement or sentance in the Bible.

In terms of what you are talking about those beginning was a lot like the way we reproduce during sex. There is a splitting or a division and then there is a joining or bringing together. I do not understand it but I know there is a lot more here to look into.

Not_By_Chance · Jan 24, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
You have the first two words in the Bible: Beginning & God. Sense this is the very first word in the Bible I think it deserves to have a little bit of effort put into understanding what this word: "beginning" really means. The best way to do that is to look at all the places the word "beginning" is used in the Bible. First we look at the use of that word in that chapter, then we look at the use of that word in the rest of the book. Then we can look at the way Moses uses the word in all the books he wrote. We see beginning can mean firstborn, we see beginning can mean firstfruit. This is interesting to me because God does not consider when a seed sprouts the beginning, he considers the beginning when the tree produces fruit. Also beginning can mean their best.

So beginning can mean:

beginning

first

chief

choice part

Next we look at context. (We ask who wrote this: Moses wrote this for us. Who was Moses talking to, who was his primary or first audience. Then we ask what is the message in this for us today.) It is interesting that we have three words: "beginning" "God", "Created" First we look at the use of the word: "created" in Genesis ch 1 and we see Moses used it three time. In the first verse where God created the "heaven and the earth". Next we see where God created the Great Whales in verse 21 and God created man in verse 27. Now with all that is new in Genesis chapter one why is the word created only used three times? For the great whale and man. What does the whale and man have in common? I venture to suggest that a whale is a mammal, they breath air and they feed their babies milk.

Now for a surprise there is a word that is not translated in the Hebrew. That word is: "eth". This word is used twice in Genesis chapter one. The other use is in verse 4 when God "saw" the light and then He divided the light and the darkness. The next time we see this word is in Genesis chapter 4 when Adam "knew" Eve his wife. After that the word is used in Gen 5:22 when "Enoch walked with God after he begat H853 Methuselah". Then in Gen 19:13 "For we will destroy H853 this place". Gen 37:23 "they stript H853 Joseph out of his coat" and finally in Gen 47:23 "Then Joseph said unto the people, Behold, I have bought H853 you this day and your land for Pharaoh: lo, here is seed for you, and ye shall sow the land."

So the first three words in the Bible is really four words. Actually the first sentence is really seven (7) words. There is another hidden word between Heaven and Earth that is not translated. Maybe we can talk about that next time. If there are seven words here for our consideration then this would require seven books to be written to talk about and explain those seven words that make up the very first statement or sentance in the Bible.

In terms of what you are talking about those beginning was a lot like the way we reproduce during sex. There is a splitting or a division and then there is a joining or bringing together. I do not understand it but I know there is a lot more here to look into.

Hi Joshua

I think we have to accept that there is a lot that we currently do not understand about our reality and about God. He has given us some clues, but that's all they are. Finite minds will never fully understand an infinite power like God, but at least through Jesus, we have some idea of God's character. I like the words in the Michael Card Song "Joseph AKA Joseph" from his album "The Life." It goes like this, "How can it be, this baby in my arms, sleeping now, so peacefully. The Son of God, the angel said...Father show me where I fit into this plan of yours. How can a man be father to the Son of God? Lord for all my life I've been a simple carpenter. How can I raise a king, how can I raise a king?" It's a beautiful song and it summarises the mystery of it all (I always feature it on my Christmas songs collection, together with a few other Michael Card songs from the same album).

joshua 1 9 · Jan 24, 2016

Not_By_Chance said:
Hi Joshua

I think we have to accept that there is a lot that we currently do not understand about our reality and about God. He has given us some clues, but that's all they are. Finite minds will never fully understand an infinite power like God, but at least through Jesus, we have some idea of God's character. I like the words in the Michael Card Song "Joseph AKA Joseph" from his album "The Life." It goes like this, "How can it be, this baby in my arms, sleeping now, so peacefully. The Son of God, the angel said...Father show me where I fit into this plan of yours. How can a man be father to the Son of God? Lord for all my life I've been a simple carpenter. How can I raise a king, how can I raise a king?" It's a beautiful song and it summarises the mystery of it all (I always feature it on my Christmas songs collection, together with a few other Michael Card songs from the same album).

Yes we do not know much but He has given us a little so we work to be faithful with what we have.

FreeinChrist · Jan 25, 2016

MOD HAT

This thread is being moved to General Theology, a Christian only forum.

elopez · Jan 26, 2016

Not_By_Chance said:
We could say that there was just God + nothing, where nothing is “what rocks dream about” to quote Aristotle (I actually think that is a pretty good definition of nothing myself).

I think appealing to "nothingness" as an explanation for God without time is a shortcoming. I say that as a definition of what "nothing" is, is usually nonsensical. Even without the universe there still exists God, which is something. And you can't experiment as to support a hypothesis that there is "nothingness", as any observation implies the existence of an observer, which again is something. Even the poetic reference of Aristotle's you quoted does no justice.

Not_By_Chance said:
So one might be tempted to ask, what was God doing before He created the universe, which naturally leads on to how long was He doing it for?

As you guessed, asking this question is inconsistent as there is no time without the universe. So there is no "before" the universe as that would imply a temporal relation. Therefore, the following question is equally awry.

Not_By_Chance said:
Also, God can’t be infinite in time, if time itself is finite, so by what method can we use to describe the period of God’s existence before creation, since we can’t use time?

The issue, as far as I can tell, is merely linguistical. We know time is finite. That God is infinite and created. Yet how can we say this without sounding contradictory? I have seen the term "causally prior" to the universe used, though I do not favor that statement. Instead I prefer "God existed without the universe".

nonaeroterraqueous · Jan 26, 2016

elopez said:
As you guessed, asking this question is inconsistent as there is no time without the universe. So there is no "before" the universe as that would imply a temporal relation. Therefore, the following question is equally awry.

That's a pretty good way of putting it, actually. To answer the question of what God was doing before he created the universe is simply that there was nothing before the universe. If we make a leap of speculation and say that God created other universes with their own time and space, then they neither existed before nor after our universe, because that would require judging the existence of those universes by our own timeline, or judging ours by their timeline, which makes no sense, because we are not in their timeline, and they are not in ours. Therefore, anything God ever did outside of the confines of this universe he did neither before, nor during, nor after us. The self-existent God, the I Am, has no cause, and therefore cannot be part of a chain of cause and effect. If time is essentially an orderly chain of cause and effect (we measure time by the rate at which causes have their effects), and if God cannot be caused, then he can be the first cause, but he cannot be contained by time, because there can be no chain of events that caused him to be what he is.

One might wonder if God has his own timeline, but if time is a medium for change, and if God is eternal and unchanging, then God likely does not have a timeline of his own. He simply exists. I don't expect to ever wrap my mind around what that must be like.

Not_By_Chance · Jan 27, 2016

nonaeroterraqueous said:
I don't expect to ever wrap my mind around what that must be like.

Nor me. Perhaps He'll permit us to ask Him some of the big questions when we finally get to meet Him. To a large degree, the future is as mysterious as the past and even the present is hard to define. How long does the present, which is really the interface between the past and future actually last - seconds, milliseconds, less, much less or maybe it's so short that it doesn't really exist at all?

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