Logical Problems with Calvinism

Hoghead1 said:

I can't say as I agree, Thursday. I believe that we all have free wills. That means God does not decide for us. The future is open-ended until we decide. Therefore I don't see how God could have any foreknowledge of us. Calvin did, but Calvin believed that God has predetermined everything and so there was no free will.

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Everyone believes men have fee wills (in the basic sense) - Calvinists included.

God did not decide for us. He merely predestined that what we decided would indeed be decided.

That's a huge difference.

The future is not open ended. God predestined the future - which includes our existence and the choices we will make during that existence.

He has foreknowledge simply because He is the one who decides what possible existences (with their choices made in life) will indeed happen.

Calvin did not believe that men do not have wills.

This has been explained many times to you and to others.

You keep throwing out the same charges over and over again and ignoring what has been explained to you over and over again.

You are either purposefully doing it or you are unable to reason logically.

I think it is the former. But God will judge that in the end.

You know though - if you will but consider it for a while.

That's why I've backed out of this pointless merry-go-round. It's turning into a food-fight, because the anti-Calvinists think that they can convince the Calvinists that they are wrong, and that just flat out will never happen, not the way they're going about it. The hatred that underlies their posts against Calvinism negates anything they could possibly say. Of course they will immediately deny holding any hatred toward Calvinists, but their very own words betray it. I'm done. i haven't got time to waste arguing with people who hate the Truth.

EmSw said:

So, are you saying the unregenerate corpses are not able to keep from murdering? You should inform local authorities so they can stop these horrible beings God created.

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God creates all things cause there isn't a single maverick molecule running loose. Understand that then you'll understand God. There isn't a place where God isn't. Darkness doesn't mean the absence of God. There no vacume space either.

nobdysfool said:

That's why I've backed out of this pointless merry-go-round. It's turning into a food-fight, because the anti-Calvinists think that they can convince the Calvinists that they are wrong, and that just flat out will never happen, not the way they're going about it. The hatred that underlies their posts against Calvinism negates anything they could possibly say. Of course they will immediately deny holding any hatred toward Calvinists, but their very own words betray it. I'm done. i haven't got time to waste arguing with people who hate the Truth.

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Some of these things are so basic that a 1st year philosopher with a single class in logic could understand them - even he had no Biblical theology at all to go with it.

At least these most basic Reformed concepts would have to be accepted if a person just believed what God has already taught us in His Word about His nature and about His relationship with His creation.

Sure --- there could be some disagreement about such things as regeneration before faith and such. That's understandable I suppose.

But the most basic ideas in the Word - concerned with predestination and such - are inescapable. That is unless one just throws out some of the most basic understandings about God's nature as taught in the scriptures.

I'm done here also- I guess.

I really don't know why I ducked back in here again. I'll try not to do it again.

I think it's because I just hate the idea that some of God's people here might really want to understand truth and they just aren't able to because of purposeful misrepresentations such as we've seen here.

I'm pretty sure though that most here just don't want to think though the truth logically - just because of where it might lead them if they did.

I guess that's just the way we'll have to leave it for now.

tulipbee said:

God creates all things cause there isn't a single maverick molecule running loose. Understand that then you'll understand God. There isn't a place where God isn't. Darkness doesn't mean the absence of God. There no vacume space either.

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Where in the world did you go? We were talking about 100% dead corpses. If you want to play around in left field, proceed.

EmSw said:

Where in the world did you go? We were talking about 100% dead corpses. If you want to play around in left field, proceed.

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Holy spirit forces me where he wants me to go so God's promises will come with a garentee. This is the meaning of slaved will or captive will, not free will. I praise jesus for that but why would arminians even want to argue and insult God so they can have thier freedom they were born in? They love sin.

Jonathan Edwards:
'Natural men oftentimes dislike God in the exercises of his infinite sovereign mercy, when it is exercised towards others. They are greatly displeased at God’s being so gracious to others; they dislike it much that God bestows converting grace upon them and pardoning mercy, and a title to eternal life upon them. When they hear of their conversion it is unpleasant news, and they find fault with it the more when the persons who seem to have received such mercy are very unworthy, and have been very great sinners;

…And yet they would not like God if he were not infinitely merciful, for then they would have less hopes of obtaining mercy themselves. They are angry because God appears so merciful in the exercises of his grace to others; but yet they would have God merciful, and are at the same time afraid that he is not merciful enough to be willing to pardon their sins, and bestow his blessing on them. Thus natural men do not like God as he is, nor yet would they like him if he were otherwise.'

tulipbee said:

Holy spirit forces me where he wants me to go so God's promises will come with a garentee. This is the meaning of slaved will or captive will, not free will. I praise jesus for that but why would arminians even want to argue and insult God so they can have thier freedom they were born in? They love sin.

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Does the HS also 'force' you to quit sinning? If you are captive to the HS's will, why do you still sin? It's because your free will is in operation. Do you not have your freedom you were born in? Do you not indulge in sin because you freely choose to do so? It's surely not God's will for you to sin.

tulipbee said:

Jonathan Edwards:
'Natural men oftentimes dislike God in the exercises of his infinite sovereign mercy, when it is exercised towards others. They are greatly displeased at God’s being so gracious to others; they dislike it much that God bestows converting grace upon them and pardoning mercy, and a title to eternal life upon them. When they hear of their conversion it is unpleasant news, and they find fault with it the more when the persons who seem to have received such mercy are very unworthy, and have been very great sinners;

…And yet they would not like God if he were not infinitely merciful, for then they would have less hopes of obtaining mercy themselves. They are angry because God appears so merciful in the exercises of his grace to others; but yet they would have God merciful, and are at the same time afraid that he is not merciful enough to be willing to pardon their sins, and bestow his blessing on them. Thus natural men do not like God as he is, nor yet would they like him if he were otherwise.'

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If Edwards would have read the places mercy is mentioned, he would not have made such statements.

Luke 1:50
And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.

Mercy is conditional, that is, on those who fear Him. We also see a condition mentioned by Jesus -

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

How is it anyone obtains mercy without fearing Him and being merciful themselves?

We also see people asked, even cried out for mercy in the following passages -

Matthew 9:27
When Jesus departed from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out and saying, “Son of David, have mercy on us!”

Matthew 15:22
And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

Matthew 17:15
“Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water.

Matthew 20:30
And behold, two blind men sitting by the road, when they heard that Jesus was passing by, cried out, saying, “Have mercy on us, O Lord, Son of David!”

Matthew 20:31
Then the multitude warned them that they should be quiet; but they cried out all the more, saying, “Have mercy on us, O Lord, Son of David!”

Mark 10:47
And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!”

Mark 10:48
Then many warned him to be quiet; but he cried out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!”

So I ask, is it within Reformed beliefs, a person can receive mercy by fearing God and asking, even crying out to receive it?

nobdysfool said:

That's why I've backed out of this pointless merry-go-round. It's turning into a food-fight, because the anti-Calvinists think that they can convince the Calvinists that they are wrong, and that just flat out will never happen,

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Many former Calvinists have seen the light and abandoned this dogma.

nobdysfool said:

I didn't say they don't mean what they say. They just don't say what you want them to say.

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Please tell me what you think these verses mean:

1 Tim 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling.

Hoghead1 said:

I can't say as I agree, Thursday. I believe that we all have free wills. That means God does not decide for us. The future is open-ended until we decide. Therefore I don't see how God could have any foreknowledge of us. Calvin did, but Calvin believed that God has predetermined everything and so there was no free will.

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God is outside of time. In essence, everything that happens in the whole entire history of the universe happens at the same time to God.

It is similar, but not identical, to rewatching a sporting event. We know what is going to happen, but we didn't make it happen.

God chose to give us free will and then the universe happened. He can see it all.

How's that?

tulipbee said:

'None' means all disobeyed. They were unable to obey

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Why did God tell them not to eat the fruit?

EmSw said:

Does the HS also 'force' you to quit sinning? If you are captive to the HS's will, why do you still sin? It's because your free will is in operation. Do you not have your freedom you were born in? Do you not indulge in sin because you freely choose to do so? It's surely not God's will for you to sin.



If Edwards would have read the places mercy is mentioned, he would not have made such statements.

Luke 1:50
And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.

Mercy is conditional, that is, on those who fear Him. We also see a condition mentioned by Jesus -

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

How is it anyone obtains mercy without fearing Him and being merciful themselves?

We also see people asked, even cried out for mercy in the following passages -

Matthew 9:27
When Jesus departed from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out and saying, “Son of David, have mercy on us!”

Matthew 15:22
And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

Matthew 17:15
“Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water.

Matthew 20:30
And behold, two blind men sitting by the road, when they heard that Jesus was passing by, cried out, saying, “Have mercy on us, O Lord, Son of David!”

Matthew 20:31
Then the multitude warned them that they should be quiet; but they cried out all the more, saying, “Have mercy on us, O Lord, Son of David!”

Mark 10:47
And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!”

Mark 10:48
Then many warned him to be quiet; but he cried out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!”

So I ask, is it within Reformed beliefs, a person can receive mercy by fearing God and asking, even crying out to receive it?

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Human Suffering is encluded

Thursday said:

Why did God tell them not to eat the fruit?

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Cause Adam knew he can just as God knew he would. Think of God as real time, the living god, not a dead god and humans do the rest on thier own as in free will

Hoghead1 said:

I can't say as I agree, Thursday. I believe that we all have free wills. That means God does not decide for us. The future is open-ended until we decide. Therefore I don't see how God could have any foreknowledge of us.

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Do you believe in the God of the Bible, or have you invented your own god who has no clue about what's coming down the pike? If God did not know the end from the beginning, He would not be God.

nobdysfool said:

That's why I've backed out of this pointless merry-go-round. It's turning into a food-fight, because the anti-Calvinists think that they can convince the Calvinists that they are wrong, and that just flat out will never happen, not the way they're going about it. The hatred that underlies their posts against Calvinism negates anything they could possibly say. Of course they will immediately deny holding any hatred toward Calvinists, but their very own words betray it. I'm done. i haven't got time to waste arguing with people who hate the Truth.

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This is a conversation and the non-Calvinists have had as rough a road in this thread as you guys have. Maybe you should have bowed out way back if you feel victimized by hate. This is a discussion forum and maybe you just haven't proven your point.

tulipbee said:

Cause Adam knew he can just as God knew he would. Think of God as real time, the living god, not a dead god and humans do the rest on thier own as in free will

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You didn't answer the question. Why did God tell Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit?

tulipbee said:

100% spiritualy dead means just that. A corpse is unable to desire ice cream after hearing the ice cream truck in the cemetery. Free will means you're 99% dead.

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Error alert!!

Spiritually dead does NOT equate to physically dead, as in non function. But that's the way Calvinists love to spin it.

To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God just as physical death is separation of soul from body. James 2:26.

There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that the spiritually dead cannot respond to the gospel. In fact, Jesus said that the "dead will hear and will live" in Jn 5:25. He refuted the Calvinists even before they became a group.

That means the arminians can crawl out of the grave and do the Michael Jackson dance. We don't do thrillers. Arminiaism is not thrill for Jesus either.

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I'm really not interested in what arminians can or cannot do, but the idea that spiritually dead people cannot respond doesn't come from the Bible. Again, Jesus refuted that notion.

And freedom of choice proves that spiritually dead people can make choices. Has nothing whatsoever with being dead or alive, as you wrongly assume.

tulipbee said:

I corrected a poster on eph 1:4 on my past post. Why should repeat that to you?

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If that would be such a bother to you, why can't you just give me the post #.

I don't bother following every post to every other poster. I do follow those who post to me. But I don't see how repeating oneself should be such a fuss. If you really were interested in refuting my position, you should see this as another opportunity to get the truth out.

But it does seem that you're not all that interested in doing that.

My post on Eph 1:4 was succinct. If you're unable to refute it succinctly, it's ok to admit it.

Or it repeating the truth as you see it is too much of a bother, it's ok to admit it.

I always look forward to clarifying and repeating, so that others will at least understand my views and points. That's the only way to have a serious discussion.

But, that may just be too much for some, I guess.

I said this:
"It's a lot easier to troll than to actually engage the views of others."

This is just a really obvious example of how to dodge questions and avoid any serious discussion.

The truth is that you won't cover what has already been covered because you can't. Or you would have.


I understand your complete unwillingness to engage my views substantively. And it's ok to admit it.

tulipbee said:

I dodge unregenerates. They deny the bible

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Well, you've clearly communicated that you consider me an unregenerate. Which is saying that I'm not saved. Which violates forum rules.

tulipbee said:

Human Suffering is encluded

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Thank you for your thought on suffering. You have any thoughts on the verses I gave about mercy?