Why do people believe in a Rapture?

n2thelight said:

Dang the human reasoning,we all have that,question was,what are you all escaping????

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Just a moment or two after the pretrib rapture and you will find out.

@Psalm3704

If you don't think Psalms are prohecies....Well,I don't know what to say to you

n2thelight said:

But of course I have.Let me simplify,who are they today,more to the point,do you consider them to be the Jew's?

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There are Jews and their cousins, the lost tribes. But some of them are being "found." Some are living today in the Holy Land. Some are yet to arrive there.

Lamad said: Ever heard of Jacob and his sons?

n2thelight said:

But of course I have.Let me simplify,who are they today,more to the point,do you consider them to be the Jew's?

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Despite myself, BaBerean and many others posting scriptures proving that there is but one people of God, spiritual Israelites, pre-trib rapture believers must grip onto a separate Israel and Church, or their theory collapses.
Really, Lamad and all pre-trib rapture believers, if its impossible to let go of this belief; OK you take the consequences, but don't promote it or teach others at the risk of a more severe judgement. James 3:1

iamlamad said:

There are Jews and their cousins, the lost tribes. But some of them are being "found." Some are living today in the Holy Land. Some are yet to arrive there.

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The Christian nations of today are the lost tribes,they(Israel)went into captivity 200 years before their brother Judah...Do you not understand this,and that's why one cannot seperate Israel from the Church,which pretribbers and others do in error...

Who was commisioned to spread the gospel to the world?Christ said go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,the Jew's were never lost....

The problem is Israel even to this day don't know who they are

n2thelight said:

@Psalm3704

If you don't think Psalms are prohecies....Well,I don't know what to say to you

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n2, do you know why you have problems comprehending things you read in the bible? Read what I said below: "Psalm 69 & 70 are not prophecies and have nothing to do with the end times."

I said Psalm 69 & 70 is not prophecy, not the entire book of Psalm. There's a difference!

Psalm3704 said:

Keras,

Psalm 69 & 70 are not prophecies and have nothing to do with the end times. They're psalms from David pleading in repentance.

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And here's my understanding on the book of Psalm. Read below.

Psalm3704 said:

A huge majority of prophecies on the end times is found in the old testament. In the new testament, there's only about 12 pages of prophecies: the discourse from Matthew, Mark and Luke, 3 pages from Paul on 1st & 2nd Thessalonians and 6 pages from John from the 1st Seal in Rev 6 to Satan's defeat in Rev 20. While in the old testament from the prophetic books of Isaiah to Malachi plus some additional prophecies from Psalm, they make up to 1/4 of the entire bible dedicated to the study of surrounding events involving the end times and the return of Christ. 1% on the first coming, 99% on the second coming..

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Psalm3704 said:

n2, do you know why you have problems comprehending things you read in the bible? Read what I said below: "Psalm 69 & 70 are not prophecies and have nothing to do with the end times."

I said Psalm 69 & 70 is not prophecy, not the entire book of Psalm. There's a difference!



And here's my understanding on the book of Psalm. Read below.













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My comprehension skills are great,that's why I don't believe in a rapture...Ask a 3rd grader to read the scriptures you all claim to be of the rapture,and I gaurentee they won't see it

I understand quite well what you meant,as that's what I was reffering to...

Psalms 69 is a very special Psalm, and is close to Psalms 22 which dealt with our Lord on the cross, where Jesus is represented as the "sin offering". Then in Psalms 40 Jesus is represented as the "burnt offering". Christ even had this Psalm 69 in mind as he hung on the cross, as we will see through our study. Part of the words of this Psalm even came from Jesus mouth, as he hung there on the cross. For those with the eyes to see and the ears to hear, this Psalm should become very important to each of us. In the last line of Psalms 22, in the Hebrew text, Jesus said; "It is done". The King James version has it; "He hath done this"; And in the Gospel of John, "It is finished". That is what was witnessed by the Apostle John as Jesus final words on the cross.

John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, "It is finished:" and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost."


Psalms 69:1 "Save me, O God; For the waters are come in unto my soul."

In the Hebrew text, these "waters" are "waters of great troubles". These are the troubles of Jacob's time, when the one world system is in control. Those troubled times come right at the end of this earth age, and usher in the coming of the Antichrist, Satan, who will deceive the whole world. It also represented the times of troubles at the time of the time of Jesus Crucifixion.

Remember that the beast of the political system, rose from the sea, the waters, and the waters are the people and nations in the final generation. Revelation 17:15 "And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot [That one world religious system] sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, aned nations, and tongues." This beast or one world religious system that riseth, comes out of the nations of the world in our day. It is the people that set up the trouble which allows for the one world system, and the beast that gives control over to the dragon, which is Satan.

Psalms 69:2 "I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me."

There will be a flood that covers the entire earth, and it will be a flood of lies and deception. Revelation 12:15, 16; "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood." [15] "And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth." [16] That flood pours out of Satan's mouth in that hour that Satan is here on earth. Satan is out to get God's elect, that woman, but God shall protect each of His elect.

Need me to go on?

BABerean2 said:

Gen 28:14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

The seed in which all the nations would be blessed, is Jesus Christ.

The covenant in Romans chapter 11 is the New Blood Covenant of Christ.
The Olive Tree in Romans chapter 11 is a symbol of the Church.

The Church is now the only way of Salvation until the Second Coming.
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The destruction of Jerusalem during the time of Jacob's entire descendants isn't found in Romans 11. It's error and an incompetent interpretation of scripture. People in Israel that survives the initial destruction upon Jerusalem will find themselves starving to death having nothing to eat except the carcasses of those that died, Ezekiel 5:10, Micah 3:1-3.


Isaiah 64:9-12 Good News Translation (GNT)
9 so do not be too angry with us or hold our sins against us forever. We are your people; be merciful to us. 10 Your sacred cities are like a desert; Jerusalem is a deserted ruin, 11 and our Temple, the sacred and beautiful place where our ancestors praised you, has been destroyed by fire. All the places we loved are in ruins. 12 Lord, are you unmoved by all this? Are you going to do nothing and make us suffer more than we can endure?

Jeremiah 26:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
18 “Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Zion shall be plowed like a field,
Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins,
And the mountain of the temple
Like the bare hills of the forest.”’

Ezekiel 22:17-22 Good News Translation (GNT)
17 The Lord said to me, 18 “Mortal man, the Israelites are of no use to me. They are like waste metal—copper, tin, iron, and lead—left over after silver has been refined in a furnace. 19 So now I, the Sovereign Lord, am telling them that they are just as useless as that. I will bring them all together in Jerusalem 20 in the same way that the ore of silver, copper, iron, lead, and tin is put in a refining furnace. My anger and rage will melt them the way fire melts ore. 21 Yes, I will gather them in Jerusalem, build a fire under them, and melt them with my anger. 22 They will be melted in Jerusalem the way silver is melted in a furnace, and then they will know that they are feeling the anger of the Lord.”

Isaiah 29:1-8 Good News Translation (GNT)
29 God's altar, Jerusalem itself, is doomed! The city where David camped is doomed! Let another year or two come and go, with its feasts and festivals, 2 and then God will bring disaster on the city that is called “God's altar.” There will be weeping and wailing, and the whole city will be like an altar covered with blood. 3 God will attack the city, surround it, and besiege it. 4 Jerusalem will be like a ghost struggling to speak from under the ground, a muffled voice coming from the dust.

5 Jerusalem, all the foreigners who attack you will be blown away like dust, and their terrifying armies will fly away like straw. Suddenly and unexpectedly 6 the Lord Almighty will rescue you with violent thunderstorms and earthquakes. He will send windstorms and raging fire; 7 then all the armies of the nations attacking the city of God's altar, all their weapons and equipment—everything—will vanish like a dream, like something imagined in the night. 8 All the nations that assemble to attack Jerusalem will be like a starving person who dreams he is eating and wakes up hungry, or like someone dying of thirst who dreams he is drinking and wakes with a dry throat.

Amos 9:8 Good News Translation (GNT)
I, the Sovereign Lord, am watching this sinful kingdom of Israel, and I will destroy it from the face of the earth. But I will not destroy all the descendants of Jacob.

Micah 1:1-9 Good News Translation (GNT)
1 During the time that Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah were kings of Judah, the Lord gave this message to Micah, who was from the town of Moresheth. The Lord revealed to Micah all these things about Samaria and Jerusalem.
2 Hear this, all you nations;
listen to this, all who live on earth!
The Sovereign Lord will testify against you.
Listen! He speaks from his heavenly temple.
3 The Lord is coming from his holy place;
he will come down and walk on the tops of the mountains.
4 Then the mountains will melt under him
like wax in a fire;
they will pour down into the valleys
like water pouring down a hill.

5 All this will happen because the people of Israel have sinned and rebelled against God. Who is to blame for Israel's rebellion? Samaria, the capital city itself Who is guilty of idolatry in Judah? Jerusalem itself 6 So the Lord says, “I will make Samaria a pile of ruins in the open country, a place for planting grapevines. I will pour the rubble of the city down into the valley, and will lay bare the city's foundations. 7 All its precious idols will be smashed to pieces, everything given to its temple prostitutes will be destroyed by fire, and all its images will become a desolate heap. Samaria acquired these things for its fertility rites, and now her enemies will carry them off for temple prostitutes elsewhere.”

8 Then Micah said, “Because of this I will mourn and lament. To show my sorrow, I will walk around barefoot and naked. I will howl like a jackal and wail like an ostrich. 9 Samaria's wounds cannot be healed, and Judah is about to suffer in the same way; destruction has reached the gates of Jerusalem itself, where my people live.”

Ezekiel 5:5-12 Good News Translation (GNT)
5 The Sovereign Lord said, “Look at Jerusalem. I put her at the center of the world, with other countries all around her. 6 But Jerusalem rebelled against my commands and showed that she was more wicked than the other nations, more disobedient than the countries around her. Jerusalem rejected my commands and refused to keep my laws. 7 Now listen, Jerusalem, to what I, the Sovereign Lord, am saying. By not obeying my laws or keeping my commands, you have caused more trouble than the nations around you. You have followed the customs of other nations. 8 And so I, the Sovereign Lord, am telling you that I am your enemy. I will pass judgment on you where all the nations can see it. 9 Because of all the things you do that I hate, I will punish Jerusalem as I have never done before and will never do again. 10 As a result, parents in Jerusalem will eat their children, and children will eat their parents. I will punish you and scatter in every direction any who are left alive.

11 “Therefore, as I am the living God—this is the word of the Sovereign Lord—because you defiled my Temple with all the evil, disgusting things you did, I will cut you down without mercy. 12 A third of your people will die from sickness and hunger in the city; a third will be cut down by swords outside the city; and I will scatter the last third to the winds and pursue them with a sword.


Micah 3:1-12 Good News Translation (GNT)
1 Listen, you rulers of Israel! You are supposed to be concerned about justice, 2 yet you hate what is good and you love what is evil. You skin my people alive and tear the flesh off their bones. 3 You eat my people up. You strip off their skin, break their bones, and chop them up like meat for the pot. 4 The time is coming when you will cry out to the Lord, but he will not answer you. He will not listen to your prayers, for you have done evil.

5 My people are deceived by prophets who promise peace to those who pay them, but threaten war for those who don't. To these prophets the Lord says, 6 “Prophets, your day is almost over; the sun is going down on you. Because you mislead my people, you will have no more prophetic visions, and you will not be able to predict anything.” 7 Those who predict the future will be disgraced by their failure. They will all be humiliated because God does not answer them.

8 But as for me, the Lord fills me with his spirit and power, and gives me a sense of justice and the courage to tell the people of Israel what their sins are. 9 Listen to me, you rulers of Israel, you that hate justice and turn right into wrong. 10 You are building God's city, Jerusalem, on a foundation of murder and injustice. 11 The city's rulers govern for bribes, the priests interpret the Law for pay, the prophets give their revelations for money—and they all claim that the Lord is with them. “No harm will come to us,” they say. “The Lord is with us.”

12 And so, because of you, Zion will be plowed like a field, Jerusalem will become a pile of ruins, and the Temple hill will become a forest.




















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n2thelight said:

My comprehension skills are great,that's why I don't believe in a rapture...Ask a 3rd grader to read the scriptures you all claim to be of the rapture,and I gaurentee they won't see it

I understand quite well what you meant,as that's what I was reffering to...

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Cool beans. Now explain how Psalm 69 & 70 is prophecy of the end times and what it means below.

Psalm 69 King James Version (KJV)
1 Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul.
2 I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me.
3 I am weary of my crying: my throat is dried: mine eyes fail while I wait for my God.
4 They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away.
5 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.
6 Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord God of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel.
7 Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face.
8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children.
9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
10 When I wept, and chastened my soul with fasting, that was to my reproach.
11 I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.
12 They that sit in the gate speak against me; and I was the song of the drunkards.
13 But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O Lord, in an acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in the truth of thy salvation.
14 Deliver me out of the mire, and let me not sink: let me be delivered from them that hate me, and out of the deep waters.
15 Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me.
16 Hear me, O Lord; for thy lovingkindness is good: turn unto me according to the multitude of thy tender mercies.
17 And hide not thy face from thy servant; for I am in trouble: hear me speedily.
18 Draw nigh unto my soul, and redeem it: deliver me because of mine enemies.
19 Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour: mine adversaries are all before thee.
20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none.
21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.
23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
29 But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.
30 I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving.
31 This also shall please the Lord better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hoofs.
32 The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.
33 For the Lord heareth the poor, and despiseth not his prisoners.
34 Let the heaven and earth praise him, the seas, and every thing that moveth therein.
35 For God will save Zion, and will build the cities of Judah: that they may dwell there, and have it in possession.
36 The seed also of his servants shall inherit it: and they that love his name shall dwell therein.


Psalm 70 King James Version (KJV)
1 Make haste, o God, to deliver me; make haste to help me, O Lord.
2 Let them be ashamed and confounded that seek after my soul: let them be turned backward, and put to confusion, that desire my hurt.
3 Let them be turned back for a reward of their shame that say, Aha, aha.
4 Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: and let such as love thy salvation say continually, Let God be magnified.
5 But I am poor and needy: make haste unto me, O God: thou art my help and my deliverer; O Lord, make no tarrying.








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n2thelight said:

Need me to go on?

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Yeah next time please post the link of "Revelation chapter 12" to the most erroneous website you copied and paste from.
http://www.theseason.org/revelation/revelation12.htm

Bottom line: Psalms 69 =/= Revelation 12.










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keras said:

It is a mistake to go by what the commentators say about Bible passages, they carefully avoid any prophecy related to the end times.

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Keras, I never rely commentators, I'm 100% bible with the help of a talking parrot.

keras said:

Right, we goyem simply cannot go to live in Israel now anyway. But after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath: The Lord's people will settle in the holy Land, those who love His Name will live there. Psalm 69:35-36

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Keras,

Written around 1040 bc - 970 bc, Psalms 69:35-36 was fulfilled after the Babylonian exile (around 605 bc) when the Jews returned to Israel and rebuild the city. Psalms 69 isn't about the end times though David does have prophecies of the tribulation elsewhere.











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Psalm3704 said:

Yeah next time please post the link of "Revelation chapter 12" to the most erroneous website you copied and paste from.
http://www.theseason.org/revelation/revelation12.htm

Bottom line: Psalms 69 =/= Revelation 12.










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Always post the link,my fault on that one...Still dos'nt change the truth............Anyway,wait on your rapture and you will be deceived

That's the bottom line!!!!!!!

n2thelight said:

Always post the link,my fault on that one...Still dos'nt change the truth............Anyway,wait on your rapture and you will be deceived

That's the bottom line!!!!!!!

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That's NOT the point. No one cares if you remember to post the link or not. It's just a side joke.

The point is: Psalms 69 does NOT equate Revelation 12. They are not parallel scriptures.










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Psalm3704 said:

Keras, I never rely commentators, I'm 100% bible with the help of a talking parrot.

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Yes, I have noticed how you rapture believers 'parrot' each other!

Psalm3704 said:

Written around 1040 bc - 970 bc, Psalms 69:35-36 was fulfilled after the Babylonian exile (around 605 bc) when the Jews returned to Israel and rebuild the city. Psalms 69 isn't about the end times though David does have prophecies of the tribulation elsewhere.

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As I quoted in 1 Corinthians 10:6-13, this prophecy applies to us as well. Did Judah receive all the blessings promised? Were they re-joined with Israel as per Ezekiel 37?
We await the final and full fulfilment of all the prophesies. All the Lord's living righteous believers will experience the amazing time of our destiny, for the last few years before the Return of Jesus.

iamlamad said:

Are you BLIND to what happens AFTER the Second coming?

By the way, we are GRAFTED IN to the original tree: ISRAEL. It is nonsense to think there is a Gentile tree. We are grafted in to THEIR TREE for "salvation is of the JEWS." I can assure you GOD IS BIGGER than your small thinking and God will CERTAINLY save many sons of Jacob that you have given up on. And it will be the SAME JESUS that accomplishes this, for there is NO OTHER NAME whereby anyone can be saved.

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No. I am not blinded. However, the flaming fire that comes with Christ's return is likely to blind many who have not accepted Him when He returns. What happens after the blindness will be much worse.


2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

You are most certainly correct about the original Olive Tree being Israel. Romans 11:1
Almost all of the Church was made up of Israelites when it began.
There has never been a Gentile Tree. The Church has been made up of both Jews and Gentiles, since the first century.
Again, you are correct on this point.

God is now saving many of the sons of Jacob by grafting them into the Olive Tree, New Covenant of Grace and will continue to do so until the Second Coming of Christ.
This is the reason my wife and I support Jews for Jesus and Word of Messiah Ministries on a monthly basis. They are both now taking the Gospel to the descendants of Jacob.

James was speaking to the 12 tribes of Jacob in his letter.
He was speaking to the 12 tribes of Israel.
James was speaking to the Church.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings.

You are also correct in that God's ways are greater than my small mind can ever comprehend.

It is good to see much agreement in your last post.

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

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keras said:

As I quoted in 1 Corinthians 10:6-13, this prophecy applies to us as well.

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Keras, the only reason why i didn't comment on 1 Corinthians 10 was because you were already wrong with the other two comments. Do you need me to rub it in and show you you're wrong here too?

1 Corinthians 10:6-13 is not comments from Paul about David. Paul was referring to the people in Moses' time. How many times have I've told you to read the whole chapter.

keras said:

Did Judah receive all the blessings promised? Were they re-joined with Israel as per Ezekiel 37?
We await the final and full fulfilment of all the prophesies. All the Lord's living righteous believers will experience the amazing time of our destiny, for the last few years before the Return of Jesus.

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Nope, they didn't. Ezekiel 37 is still future. It's a common error that many people think the gathering of Israel in 1948 fulfilled Ezekiel 37 but it's not. Ezekiel's prophecy from chapter 34 to 48 is in chronological order.


You can bookmark this Keras as I guarantee this is how it'll happen. All the other prophetic books reveals this same pattern. Watch! Israel will be at war in Jordan, most likely against ISIS based on Ezekiel 35. That's the next major prophetic event in the book of Ezekiel.

Israel will also be at war in the Sinai, the Gaza and Syria (most likely against ISIS) in these next two years per prophecies in other books of the bible.










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iamlamad said in post 6416:

But they will be descendants of Jacob.

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Note that if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can inherit the land of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), will inherit the land of Israel during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).

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iamlamad said in post 6419:

Why then is your thinking about God so small you don't think God can save the Jews after the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in?

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Note that the post-tribulation-rapture view per se doesn't require that he won't.

For in Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). And both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus himself (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will be ashamed, and will all weep and become saved when they see Jesus and realize that he truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

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Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

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Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the tribulation doesn't mean that no Gentiles will be added to the church during the subsequent millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" doesn't have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it, so that the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it doesn't matter that the new believers during the millennium will be added to the church/bride (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage occurred at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size after her wedding.

iamlamad said in post 6419:

Did you not read in Rev. 14 of the EVERLASTING GOSPEL that will save the Jews? It is the GOSPEL.

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That's right.

For both elements of the "everlasting gospel" (i.e. for all time) in Revelation 14:6-7 are synecdochic parts of the gospel which Jesus and the apostles preached in the 1st century AD (e.g. Matthew 10:28, Romans 11:20-22, Romans 15:6), and which is recorded in the New Testament.

Revelation 14:6-20 will occur after the events of the future tribulation's first 6 trumpets up to Revelation 9:21, and at the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Revelation 14:9-11 will be a warning to people (including those in the church) not to worship the Antichrist or they will suffer the eternal wrath of God, which will be in the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

iamlamad said in post 6419:

Did you never read Daniel?

12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

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Daniel 12:7b means that at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

n2thelight said in post 6425:

The Christian nations of today are the lost tribes . . .

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Actually, the 12 tribes of Israel aren't nations, but consist of individuals who can be living in any nation. Otherwise, one's tribe would change whenever one moved from one nation to another. Also, nothing requires that any of the nominally-Christian nations are descended from any of the ancient 12 tribes of Israel, instead of them all simply being Gentile nations. For Christians come from every nation on the earth (Revelation 5:9b), and only a remnant of genetic Israel gets saved (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity as a whole gets saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14). Also, the entire church throughout the world is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12).

Also, Jews include individuals from all 12 of Israel's tribes, for there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the 10 northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history.

For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom, when it first become idolatrous, some individuals from all 10 of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews. Also, some individuals from the 10 northern tribes remained in the land of Israel even after its defeat by Assyria, and some of them went to Judah at the time of Hezekiah (2 Chronicles 30). It is for these reasons that later the Jews who returned from the Babylonian Captivity could be referred to as "all Israel" (Ezra 2:70, Ezra 6:17, Ezra 8:25,35, Ezra 10:5, Nehemiah 7:73, Nehemiah 12:47), and why the Jews living in the 1st century AD could be referred to as including all 12 tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1, Acts 2:36,22,5), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

So the people alive today who are descended genetically from a 1st century AD Jew would include individuals from all 12 tribes. Some of these descendants could know that they are Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity, and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity: over the past 2,700 years, their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles, and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

Also, while God knows which people alive today are descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the 12 genetic tribes arose (Genesis 49:28), nonelect Israelites/Jews aren't considered by God to be truly Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or truly Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9), or God's children or Abraham's children, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they are Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

Some genetic Israelites are believers, and so are members of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew, Paul the apostle (Acts 22:3) is a member of the church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). And some still-living, non-believing genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they are elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the still-living, elect, non-believing genetic Israelites who don't become believers before Jesus' 2nd coming will become believers (and so will become members of the church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect, genetic Israelites will eventually become believers and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

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Just as those of the tribe of Benjamin, for example (Romans 11:1), are Jews (Acts 22:3) because they are descended from those who lived in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:1-3), so those of all the other tribes of Israel are Jews who are descended from those who came to live in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17). For the definition of "Jew" includes those who have connection with the territory of Judah (See Strong's word numbers G2453, G2448, H3063, and H3064), not just those who are genetically a part of the tribe of Judah.

An analogy would be people born in different countries in Europe, people whose ancestors were also born in those different countries, going back into ancient times. If they immigrate to America and become naturalized citizens of America, this won't change their genetic identities. They will still be genetically English or French or German or Italian or Spanish or Greek, etc. And only the original inhabitants of America, the American Indians, can be said to be genetic Americans. In this analogy, the nation/territory of America represents the kingdom/territory of Judah. The European immigrants represent the genetic members of the tribes of Israel other than Judah. All Americans, including the European immigrants who became naturalized citizens of America, represent all Jews. And the American Indians represent the genetic members of the tribe of Judah. (Again, this is just an analogy for how "Jews" can include genetic members of every tribe of Israel.)

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n2thelight said in post 6428:

Those troubled times come right at the end of this earth age, and usher in the coming of the Antichrist, Satan, who will deceive the whole world.

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Note that Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) isn't the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), but the one who will empower the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), and who will be worshiped along with the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist will be cast into the lake of fire over 1,000 years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20 to 20:10). The Antichrist and Satan are shown to be separate persons also in Revelation 16:13. But Satan could spiritually enter the man who is the Antichrist, just as Satan spiritually entered Judas (Luke 22:3).

Psalm3704 said:

Keras, the only reason why i didn't comment on 1 Corinthians 10 was because you were already wrong with the other two comments. Do you need me to rub it in and show you you're wrong here too?

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Only in your opinion.
I have shown that you are wrong about a rapture to heaven, 'rubbing it in' hasn't worked on you, don't try it with me. Prove your beliefs with scripture.
Paul was talking about how the many things that happened in ancient times, were a sign to us of things yet to happen:

In principle all prophecies have to be literally fulfilled but sometimes the main point of the prophecy is a general representative one.
All prophecies were intended in some way or other to be fulfilled in the Last Days. The Prophets however lived in their own time and had a physical-spiritual-psychic connection with events of their own times and with what would happen as an outcome of those events.
They received the prophecies according to their own capacities and communicated them likewise. e.g. They would speak of chariots and horses when the intention is to mechanical vehicles.
Take Micah chapter five for instance. Micah lived some good time before the exile of the Ten Tribes but the events and conditions leading up to the exile were relevant in his lifetime and comprehensible to him.
Micah describes how the exiled Israelites would be captured subjects of the Assyrians, then become allies of Assyria, then destroy Assyria and become the most powerful and most feared nation in the world. This happened when the exiled Israelites identified as Scythians took over the Assyrian Empire and then destroyed it. We can use the prophecy of Micah to understand what happened concerning the exiled Israelites.
Even so, the main point of the Prophecy was to describe the end times. The whole thing about the Israelite Scythians and Assyria was meant as a pre-run, a rehearsal, a Prototype for what would be in the future.
This explains how sometimes Prophecy can begin to describe something in terms of what is historically comprehensible to us in terms of what did happen but then veer away and describe events in ways that did not occur, e.g. the passages concerning Cyrus in Isaiah fit the historical king of Persia named Cyrus only to a certain degree. This king actually served as a model for a person or entity that would become apparent in the end times.
Ref: BritAm