Free Will and God's Sovereignty - Proverbs 16:33+

PrettyboyAndy

• Andy •
Supporter
Sep 14, 2009
1,080
353
Toronto/NY
✟93,218.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
God is Sovereign over:
a)Random Acts
Proverbs 16:33 - “The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord.”
b)Heart
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. Proverbs 21:1
c)Our Life and Plans
A man’s steps are from the LORD; how then can man understand his way? Proverbs 20:24
d)Salvation
As many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48
e)Health
Then the LORD said to [Moses], “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?” Exodus 4:11
f)Over all
[God] works all things according to the counsel of his will. Ephesians 1:11

Does the bible talk about free will, besides Salvation? (Besides when it says whoever will believe)
 
  • Like
Reactions: JM

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
59
Texas
✟49,429.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married


Does the bible talk about free will, besides Salvation? (Besides when it says whoever will believe)

Yes:

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling.

Joshua 24:14
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

John 12:23
42Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Yes:

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling.

Joshua 24:14
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

John 12:23
42Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
Sorry but none of those passages speak of free will. You are imposing your theology into the passages.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
God is Sovereign over:
a)Random Acts
Proverbs 16:33 - “The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord.”
b)Heart
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. Proverbs 21:1
c)Our Life and Plans
A man’s steps are from the LORD; how then can man understand his way? Proverbs 20:24
d)Salvation
As many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48
e)Health
Then the LORD said to [Moses], “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?” Exodus 4:11
f)Over all
[God] works all things according to the counsel of his will. Ephesians 1:11

Does the bible talk about free will, besides Salvation? (Besides when it says whoever will believe)
Actually it does mention free will. I think it is in Duet. or Lev. speaking about free will offerings. The idea is that they are other offerings that are not the required ones. It has nothing to do with man's ability to come to God.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
You missed a couple of passages from Prov. 16. :oldthumbsup:

(Pro 16:1) The ordering of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from Jehovah.

(Pro 16:9) A man's heart plans his way, but Jehovah directs his steps.

(Pro 16:25) There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of it is the ways of death.
 
Upvote 0

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,634
1,801
✟21,583.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Does the bible talk about free will, besides Salvation? (Besides when it says whoever will believe)
Joshua 24:14-21
14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;

17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.

19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.

22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.


Here is one of the clearest passages that people either choose to serve God, or choose not to. To serve God is to (1) put your trust exclusively in God, (2) worship Him, and (3) serve Him. If the Israelites did not have the ability to make such choices, then there would be no free will. Conversely, if free will is a fact, then such choices are consistent with free will.
 
Upvote 0

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,634
1,801
✟21,583.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There is a false belief and a false teaching in Christianity that God's sovereignty is incompatible with man's free will. But that is a distortion of the meaning of sovereignty. The Bible shows us again and again that while God always remains sovereign over His creation, He allows men and angels to make choices and also suffer the consequences of those choices. Sovereignty means that God has placed within the universe the Law of Cause and Effect, also known as the Law of Sowing and Reaping (see Joshua 24:20). That is where God's sovereignty is displayed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: royal priest
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Joshua 24:14-21
14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;

17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.

19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.

22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.


Here is one of the clearest passages that people either choose to serve God, or choose not to. To serve God is to (1) put your trust exclusively in God, (2) worship Him, and (3) serve Him. If the Israelites did not have the ability to make such choices, then there would be no free will. Conversely, if free will is a fact, then such choices are consistent with free will.
The problem with this is that they didn't serve the Lord they say they chose to serve. They come near with their mouth but their heart is far from me. Isa. 29:13. It didn't take long for the people to go after other gods as is clearly seen in Judges 2.

Now you think to use this passage as an end all be all concerning free will and choice. Well I hate to burst your bubble but the preponderance of the Scriptures teaches that man is totally depraved and neither can nor will choose to serve God as He is revealed in the Scriptures. To be sure they will choose a god that fits their desires and imaginations though.
 
Upvote 0

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,634
1,801
✟21,583.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The problem with this is that they didn't serve the Lord they say they chose to serve.
Neither do many born-again Christians consistently serve the Lord as they should. That certainly does not cancel the fact that Joshua used the word *choose* and that these Israelites did make a choice (whether in good faith or bad faith is immaterial). The point is that choices mean the exercise of free will, and you cannot dispute that without twisting the Scriptures.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Neither do many born-again Christians consistently serve the Lord as they should. That certainly does not cancel the fact that Joshua used the word *choose* and that these Israelites did make a choice (whether in good faith or bad faith is immaterial). The point is that choices mean the exercise of free will, and you cannot dispute that without twisting the Scriptures.
No what it does is show that man has a will and makes choices. What it doesn't show is that man has a free will. Calvinists have never argued that man has no will but that the will is subject to the nature and the nature is depraved and will choose sin every time. What is natural to man is clearly seen in Paul's description in Rom. 3.

(Rom 3:9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;


(Rom 3:10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


(Rom 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


(Rom 3:12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


(Rom 3:13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:


(Rom 3:14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:


(Rom 3:15) Their feet are swift to shed blood:


(Rom 3:16) Destruction and misery are in their ways:


(Rom 3:17) And the way of peace have they not known:


(Rom 3:18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.


(Rom 3:19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Paul again tells us in Rom. 8:7 that the carnal mind is enmity against God. Notice that it doesn't say at enmity but is enmity. It describes the nature. The very essence of our being is enmity against God. Moreover we are described as being dead in sin, ungodly, evil and suppressing the knowledge of God which is innate in us. Man is never described in the Scriptures as being good or able to do anything pleasing to God. We are told that we come forth from the womb speaking lies and that we are conceived in sin. Our hearts are said to be evil and desperately wicked so much so that we don't even know it. Psa. 58:3; 51:5; Jer. 17:9.

Your notion of free will is a farce and a figment of your imagination according to the Scriptures. The Lord said that not only will we not come to Him that we might have life but that we cannot come to Him except the Father draw us. John 5:40; 6:44.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PrettyboyAndy
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

royal priest

debtor to grace
Nov 1, 2015
2,666
2,655
Northeast, USA
✟181,424.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Neither do many born-again Christians consistently serve the Lord as they should. That certainly does not cancel the fact that Joshua used the word *choose* and that these Israelites did make a choice (whether in good faith or bad faith is immaterial). The point is that choices mean the exercise of free will, and you cannot dispute that without twisting the Scriptures.

The King of Assyria was sent by God:

Isaiah 10:5-6, "Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hands is My indignation,
I send it against a godless nation
And commission it against the people of My fury
To capture booty and to seize plunder,
And to trample them down like mud in the streets."


Does this mean God gave Assyria a direct commission? No, God merely used their natural hatred for the nations to carry out the misdeed.

Isaiah 10:7, "Yet it does not so intend,
Nor does it plan so in its heart,
But rather it is its purpose to destroy
And to cut off many nations."


Then God promised to destroy the King for thinking that he was acting of his own free will (apart from God moving Him). God was offended because He wasn't acknowledged as the cause for what had happened.

Isaiah 10:12, "I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness.”
For he has said,
“By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this,
For I have understanding;
And I removed the boundaries of the peoples
And plundered their treasures,
And like a mighty man I brought down their inhabitants..."


Consider God's own commentary. He says the notion of free will is ridiculous:

Isaiah 10:15, "Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it?
Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it?
That would be like a club wielding those who lift it,
Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood."
 
  • Like
Reactions: twin1954
Upvote 0