Challenge: Explain the fossil record without evolution

fargonic said:

This is a MEANDER BEND in the Colorado River. It is pretty much the definition of a meandering stream.

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Interesting.

I didn't know this.

But which came first, in your opinion?

The meander bend, or the Grand Canyon?

I say the meander bend came first.

-57 said:

I don't recall saying that was the only way fossils were deposited.

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What other ways?

God is pleased to be the transcendental imagination, the source of all creativity. That is my point.

Hoghead1 said:

God is pleased to be the transcendental imagination, the source of all creativity. That is my point.

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Is that standard protestant doctrine?

Depends on what you mean by "standard Protestant doctrine." It certainly challenges classical theism or the traditional model of what God is like in his or her own nature. The latter argued that God cannot change in any way whatsoever and so creation was over, done with, finito. This neo-classical model argues that God is continually changing, continually creating new things. Since the end of WWII, many theologians have been rethinking the whole model of God. Hence, there really is no orthodoxy today. Everything is up for grabs.

AV1611VET said:

Interesting.

I didn't know this.

But which came first, in your opinion?

The meander bend, or the Grand Canyon?

I say the meander bend came first.

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And you just said that there was no global flood too.

Actually embedded meanders of that sort are a death sentence to the Noah's Ark story. The meander did come first, and YEC'c cannot explain the erosion that formed them, without relying on a lying God and most Christians will not accept such a version of God.

Subduction Zone said:

Actually embedded meanders of that sort are a death sentence to the Noah's Ark story.

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No, they aren't.

Actually they are a testament to how nature obeys God.

When He said the Flood was over, the Flood was over.

And the waters just didn't wait to be raptured off the earth, they were ordered to go to a deportation spot.

And as I said before, when they were ordered to go, they didn't discuss it -- they went.

And they went along predetermined paths that cut serpentine designs in the earth.

Matthew 8:27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

AV1611VET said:

Interesting.

I didn't know this.

But which came first, in your opinion?

The meander bend, or the Grand Canyon?

I say the meander bend came first.

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Because the Grand Canyon formed very much in line with the meander bend. As the land rose the river, which was at a relatively low gradient, kept cutting down into the land.

Meanders form precisely because the gradient of the river is not sufficiently high to give the water the energy to cut through the land in a straight line. It "meanders" to find the path of least resistance. Simultaneously the land is rising meaning the cutting action will continue on deeper and deeper.

fargonic said:

Because the Grand Canyon formed very much in line with the meander bend. As the land rose the river, which was at a relatively low gradient, kept cutting down into the land.

Meanders form precisely because the gradient of the river is not sufficiently high to give the water the energy to cut through the land in a straight line. It "meanders" to find the path of least resistance. Simultaneously the land is rising meaning the cutting action will continue on deeper and deeper.

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Alright, thanks!

AV1611VET said:

Alright, thanks!

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I'm not really sold on the old earth approach that the canyon was cut as the plateau was rising.
Keep in mind the recently flood deposited strata was still plastic and would erode easier than hard rock.

-57 said:

I'm not really sold on the old earth approach that the canyon was cut as the plateau was rising.
Keep in mind the recently flood deposited strata was still plastic and would erode easier than hard rock.

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Well, for the record, I don't think erosion had anything to do with the appearance of the Grand Canyon.

-57 said:

I'm not really sold on the old earth approach that the canyon was cut as the plateau was rising.
Keep in mind the recently flood deposited strata was still plastic and would erode easier than hard rock.

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Yes we appreciate that you think you know better than geologists who have actually studied the subject. Maybe you can put your expertise to use explaining the fossil record without using evolution.

Jimmy D said:

Yes we appreciate that you think you know better than geologists who have actually studied the subject. Maybe you can put your expertise to use explaining the fossil record without using evolution.

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As to explaining the fossil record without using evolution....I have already present 2 methods of creating the fossil record.

The first was hydrololic sorting and the second was the position of animals relative to the sea. Now, you ATHEIST think the creationist believe there was only one method concerning the formation of the fossil record.....which make you atheist wrong once again.

1) Hydrolic sorting (presented above)
2) Zonation
a. Ecological
b. biogeographic
3) Chance
4) Selective preservation
5) Differential escape

First, you must understand the model. The single event was called the flood. This flooding event consisted of many smaller events over the time period of the flood. An anolgy would be the single event called the Olympics, which had other events happening over the time period of the olympics.

The great flood of Noah was not like a bathtub where it is filled up then the plug pulled at the end. The great flood of Noah started with local flooding and then grew to a world wide flood. During the growing period one of the events that would have occured is that trapped basins of water would break through their natural dikes emptying them and flooding other areas. This event would cause localize mudslides and flooding. Anything in it's path would be buried quickly or washed down stream where it would then have a chance to settle and form a layer. Later as the flood waters rise this type of sedimentation would not occur as often. Eventually the entire earth would be covered with water. During this period sedimentaton would have more than likely been at it's peak. As the waters receded the flowing currents would cut gorges in the still soft sediment and in other areas re-work the topography once more. As the waters continued to recede the land would once more be subjected to local flooding and events similar to what was described above would occur once more. Portions of what is described could happen many times in various areas of the earth. The above is by no means a complete flood scenerio but instead presents just one small possibility within the flood of Noah.

AV1611VET said:

No, they aren't.

Actually they are a testament to how nature obeys God.

When He said the Flood was over, the Flood was over.

And the waters just didn't wait to be raptured off the earth, they were ordered to go to a deportation spot.

And as I said before, when they were ordered to go, they didn't discuss it -- they went.

And they went along predetermined paths that cut serpentine designs in the earth.

Matthew 8:27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

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Don't be silly AV, of course they are. Those could not have been formed quickly post flood. The meander had to be there first obviously. Let's start with that point.

Subduction Zone said:

Don't be silly AV, of course they are. Those could not have been formed quickly post flood. The meander had to be there first obviously. Let's start with that point.

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Which s exactly what i said...the meanders were there first. They formed post flood....then were deepened and widened rapidly.

Subduction Zone said:

The meander had to be there first obviously. Let's start with that point.

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Didn't I say that already?

AV1611VET said:

I say the meander bend came first.

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-57 said:

I'm not really sold on the old earth approach that the canyon was cut as the plateau was rising.
Keep in mind the recently flood deposited strata was still plastic and would erode easier than hard rock.

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Nope, we can tell by canyon walls in that the rock was extremely well consolidated. Soft sediments do not make stable slopes. You could ask the people in a neighborhood close to where I live:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Oso_mudslide

Instead of trusting dishonest creationist sites you should ask real scientists why they know that there was no flood. One could start with the fact that ice floats in my world.

AV1611VET said:

Didn't I say that already?

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Yes, you did. And by doing do you admitted that there was no global flood. You may not realize that you did so, but that is beside the point.

-57 said:

Which s exactly what i said...the meanders were there first. They formed post flood....then were deepened and widened rapidly.

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Sorry, the "rapidly" part is wrong. So is the "widened".

-57 said:

1) Hydrolic sorting (presented above)

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I assume you mean "hydraulic sorting" and that wouldn't sort by species but only by density.

So if your point includes something about how trilobites were more "dense" than dinosaur bones or if you think rabbit bones were less dense than archaeopteryx bones then your point will fail.

ALSO: many fossils have been permineralized meaning they have been systematically replaced by other minerals. Not sure how that happens in a really, really short time frame.

3) Chance

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This "chance" metric would be akin to flipping 10,000,000,000 heads in a row on a fair coin. Sorry but we never find trilobite fossils co-eval with mammal fossils. We never find flowering plants in the same level as Devonian fishes.

And that's sampling from around the world throughout all of time.

First, you must understand the model.

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But you don't have to understand basic geology, amirite?

Oops, gotta get back to work. No time to teach you intro geology just yet. But do remember: geology classes are available at your local community college. Take one just for fun! But remember: some people dedicate their lives to studying this topic and it contains a LOT of information you may not know exists.