Why do you believe in the trinity when God and his word is simple

Der Alter said:

Because that statement is a lie. Why don't you say that you believe only a few verses which support your assumptions/presupposition and you twist all other scripture which does not support your views?

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I haven't twisted anything, but i do stand on the plain words of Christ, you reject them.
That is a fact, no matter how much you try and bluster away that fact.
And i could produce much scripture I I wanted to, but from years of experience you people just ignore it all all and refuse to address it as you do Jesus words

Der Alter said:

And your point is? When I quote scripture I usually mention what point I am trying to demonstrate. Vs. 11 of this passage says “I, even I, am the Lord, And there is no savior besides Me." In the NT Jesus is called Saviour, 21 times. Luke 2:11, John 4:42, Acts of the apostles 5:31, Philippians 3:20, 1 Timothy 1:10, 1 Timothy 2:3, 1 Timothy 4:10, 2 Timothy 1:10, Titus 1:3-4, Titus 2:10, Titus 2:13, Titus 3:4, Titus 3:6, 2 Peter 1:1, 2 Peter 1:11, 2 Peter 2:20. 2 Peter 3:2, 2 Peter 3:18, 1 John 4:14, Jude 1:25.

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I was agreeing and adding to your point.... God is the ONLY savior so if Jesus isn't God then he can't be savior according to Isaiah and those who don't believe he is God are at odds with their own salvation unless they reject the Bible.

Sophrosyne said:

I was agreeing and adding to your point.... God is the ONLY savior so if Jesus isn't God then he can't be savior according to Isaiah and those who don't believe he is God are at odds with their own salvation unless they reject the Bible.

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Now this is eternal life( note what constitutes eternal life) that they may know you( the father) the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent john17:3

Sophrosyne said:

I was agreeing and adding to your point.... God is the ONLY savior so if Jesus isn't God then he can't be savior according to Isaiah and those who don't believe he is God are at odds with their own salvation unless they reject the Bible.

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Sorry if I came across as confrontational. I could not agree more. Here are some other observations from scripture.

Here are twenty six (26) passages from the O.T. which refer to יהוה/YHWH, paired with verses in the N.T. which identify Jesus as יהוה/YHWH

The Lord said to me
What they say is good.
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
If anyone does not listen to MY WORDS that the prophet SPEAKS IN MY NAME, I myself will call him to account
Deut 18:17-19

For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say. Blessed us he who comes in THE NAME of the Lord matt23:39

If you believed Moses you would believe me, for he wrote about me john 5:46

Stuart, you are overlooking several major points. First, ministers in mainline churches do profess Christ is God. Secondly, the Trinity has always been a puzzlement to all believers. The fact that a minister says he or she believes in the Trinity does not mean they can give a coherent account of it. Although suggested in Scripture, the Trinity is largely an extra-biblical doctrine employing terms not at all found in Scripture. Does saying that Christ is one essence or substance with the Father mean that the Father is Christ, that the Father suffered, what? Suppose you adopt the social theory of the Trinity, a very traditional approach. God is a cosmic society of three separate, unique personalities that work in harmony. How is this any different from polytheism? Given other models of the Trinity, such as Augustine's psychological model, where do you find any of this in Scripture? Also it should be noted that the anti-Trinitarians also go on Scripture. So, what I am saying is that the matter is much more complex than you let on.

Any minister is obligated to preach the core doctrines of the Christian faith? Those who refuse should be disbarred? What specific "core doctrines" do you have in mind? The "core doctrines" are simply human-made, fallible teachings that may or may not be the case and often are way out of date. Therefore, from the ministers on down, everyone should think critically and carefully about what the traditions taught. That's what I'm glad I'm PCUSA, as ministers are allowed considerable doctrinal freedom.

Hoghead1 said:

Any minister is obligated to preach the core doctrines of the Christian faith? Those who refuse should be disbarred? What specific "core doctrines" do you have in mind? The "core doctrines" are simply human-made, fallible teachings that may or may not be the case and often are way out of date. Therefore, from the ministers on down, everyone should think critically and carefully about what the traditions taught. That's what I'm glad I'm PCUSA, as ministers are allowed considerable doctrinal freedom.

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Thank you for your well thought out approach to this.
The fact is, official Trinitarian doctrine, that all the Trinitarian churches are signed up to states a person MUST believe Christ is the one true God alongside the father and holy spirit, in order to be saved. According to their official doctrine this is a salvational matter.
The question then becomes
Is a minister obligated to plainly preach from the pulpit any and every core salvational requirement of belief their denomination stands on?
The answer to that question has to be a resounding yes!
But they do not do it do they, or hardly any of them would dare to if we are honest.
What minister in his right mind is going to stand in the pulpit and plainly state from it:
If you believe Jesus is the son of God but not the one true God you cannot inherit eternal life with such a belief.

And yet, that is the official doctrine they are all signed up to

Hoghead1 said:

Stuart, you are overlooking several major points. First, ministers in mainline churches do profess Christ is God. Secondly, the Trinity has always been a puzzlement to all believers. The fact that a minister says he or she believes in the Trinity does not mean they can give a coherent account of it. Although suggested in Scripture, the Trinity is largely an extra-biblical doctrine employing terms not at all found in Scripture. Does saying that Christ is one essence or substance with the Father mean that the Father is Christ, that the Father suffered, what? Suppose you adopt the social theory of the Trinity, a very traditional approach. God is a cosmic society of three separate, unique personalities that work in harmony. How is this any different from polytheism? Given other models of the Trinity, such as Augustine's psychological model, where do you find any of this in Scripture? Also it should be noted that the anti-Trinitarians also go on Scripture. So, what I am saying is that the matter is much more complex than you let on.

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It is so wonderfully refreshing to read your honest and true post concerning this subject. The trinity I largely an extra biblical doctrine. And just as trinitarians quote the bible to support their belief so do oneness christians and people like myself who only term Christ the son of God.
Now if trinitarians, oneness and people like me are all quoting scripture to support their beliefs, and there are sincere people who believe all three, how does God view it?
All three groups have a common denominator. They all believe Jesus is THE son of God who died for our sins. They all accept that title for Christ when he walked this earth, though many add to it. What is required salvational belief on this subject?

If anyone believes Jesus is the son of God, God dwells in them and they in God 1 john4:15

All three groups pass the biblical test of required belief unto salvation.
However, as some Catholics believe no protestant can be saved, and some protestants believe no catholic can be saved, some trinitarians( only a few in reality, mainly found on the internet) believe you cannot be saved unless you believe the official Trinitarian doctrine all their churches are signed up to.

Reading the Greek does not lead a person into truth, the holy spirit does. Many have read the greek i am sure and come to very fanciful notions.
People who rely on the greek/ ancient manuscripts are NOT relying on the holy spirit to lead them into truth. The holy spirit can work with any credible modern translation to lead a person into truth that matters
It comes accross as cold clinical religion of the mind to turn to the Greek, rather than trust the holy spirit to reveal truth to you

The idea the people who spent years translating the bible into English made glaring mistakes that the would be scholar or theologian instantly recognises I fanciful at best.
The truth is, these people will seek any bible translation that better fits their personal belief. When they run into trouble with one they run to another like a ferret down a rabbit hole

My nephew is a Baptist minister, he had to read the Greek NT in theological college, but he doesn't understand much of the gospel message written in the epistles!

Ok, you have the Trinity and ministers preaching the Trinity. Still that does not mean they have to blindly accept "core doctrines." For example, a "core doctrine" is that only the Son, not the Father, suffers. I know of more than one theologian and minister that would certainly disagree with that. A related core doctrine is the two natures of Christ. The human suffers, the divine or does snot. This, too, can be and has been seriously questioned. I know of more than one minister and theologian who would strongly disagree with the social theory of the Trinity as being polytheistic. Three is a pervasive subrodinationism throughout Trinitarian teachings. Strictly speaking, the Father is God, the principium and fons of it all, the Boss. The Son and Spirit are sent to do his bidding. How, then, is this truly Trinitarian, when the Son and Spirit seem but lesser Gods? See, I am not sure that preaching the Trinity is really preaching the Trinity. Many clergy will tell you that the doctrine of the Trinity is a real mess to deal with.
I think the best way to view matters is to recognize that the Christian religion is not monolithic, just one way. The Christian religion represents a rich plurality of belief systems which often do conflict with one another. I think of the church as representing a spectrum form liberal, at one end, to conservative , that the other. I would identify myself as a liberal Christian. Therefore, I believe in a healthy skepticism about tradition and the validity of outer religions. I think it Christian Imperialism to assume only Bible-believing Christians are saved.
I am not sure I agree with your comments about the Holy Spirit and working with the Greek. Normally, what happens is that whenever a scholar comes along and challenges a church teaching, the conservative response is to say he or she lacks the Spirit. However, that is a totally inappropriate response in any scholarly or serious theological dialogue. It simply amounts to saying that you are conceited enough to believe that you have a monopoly on God's truth such that anyone who dares disagree with you in the slightest is a lost soul. Take, for example, the inerrancy of Scripture. Modern biblical scholarship would disagree and for good reason. So it is only to be expected that if you are a biblical scholar, you will be written off as a lost soul by fundmentalistic Christians. Been there, done that. Occupational hazard for any serious scholar. But let's stop and look at what's really happening. it is not the Bible that is in question or God, it is the inerrancy theory. And that is precisely what it is: A human-made, possibly fallible theory about how God may be related to Scripture. Like any theory, it should be tested out. I submit that when it is, it simply doesn't work, period. So what was really in question here was not the bible or God, but simply someone's interpretation thereof. It is unfortunate these human-made teachings become unduly enshrined and sanctified as unquestionable dogmas. So I think we should feel free to explore more fully and question the Trinity, as it has been loaded with problems since day one.

Der Alter said:

Sorry if I came across as confrontational. I could not agree more. Here are some other observations from scripture.

Here are twenty six (26) passages from the O.T. which refer to יהוה/YHWH, paired with verses in the N.T. which identify Jesus as יהוה/YHWH

[1] Isa 40:3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD [יהוה], make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

N.T. reference.
Matt 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [Mk 1:3, Lk 3:4, John 1:23]
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[2] Ps 8:1 ¶ <<To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.>> O LORD [יהוה] our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

N.T. reference.
Matt 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
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[3] Ps 68:18 You have ascended on high; you have carried away captives; you have taken gifts in the form of men, Yes, even the stubborn ones, to reside among them, O Jah God." ("Jah" is an abbreviated form of the name Jehovah.)

N.T. reference.
Eph 4:7-10: "Now to each one of us undeserved kindness was given according to how the Christ measured out the free gift. Wherefore he says: 'When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts in men.' Now the expression 'he ascended,' what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth? The very one that descended is also the one that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might give fulness to all things."
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[4] Mal 3:1 ¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD [יהוה ] of hosts.

N.T. reference.
Luk 1:76 And thou, child, [John] shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord [Jesus] to prepare his ways;
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[5] Isa 10:33 Behold, the Lord, the LORD [יהוה] of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.

N.T. reference.
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
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[6] Isa 49:23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD [יהוה]: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

N.T. reference.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him [the Lord Jesus vs. 9] shall not be ashamed.

1 Pet 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
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[7] Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD [יהוה] shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD [יהוה] hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD [יהוה] shall call.

N.T. reference.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Jesus vs. 9] shall be saved.
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[8] Isa 45:23 I [יהוה vs. 21, 24] have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

N.T. reference.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, [Christ, vs. 10] every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philip 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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[9] Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD [יהוה] which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth:for in these things I delight, saith the LORD [יהוה] .

N.T. reference.
1 Cor 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. [Christ, vs. 30]
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[10] Num 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD [יהוה] will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

N.T. reference.
2 Tim 2:19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
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[11] Ps 130:8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

N.T. reference.
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
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[12] Ps 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
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[13] Ps 45:6 ¶ Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
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[14] Ps 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end

[15] Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation [ישׁועה] /Yeshuah] shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, [[Jesus/ישׁוע] /Yeshua, vss. 2, 5, 8, 9] in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
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[16] Ps 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [יהוה] is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
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[17] Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD [יהוה] of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [Christ, vs. 16]
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[18] Zech 12:10 And I [יהוה] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me [יהוה] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

N.T. reference.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
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[19] Jer 17:10 I the LORD [יהוה] search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

N.T. reference.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
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[20] Ps 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.
[21] Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD [יהוה] will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
[22]Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, [יהוה] the first, and with the last; I am he.
[23]Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD [יהוה] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [יהוה] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
[24]Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me [יהוה] O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
[25] Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD [יהוה] hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation [ישועה/Yeshuah] cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

N.T. reference.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, (Isa 40:10, 62:11), to give every man according as his work (Ps 62:12, 34:8) shall be.
13 I [Jesus/ישוע/Yeshua] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12)
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[26] Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. . .
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

N.T. reference.
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (Is 6:10)
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (Isa 6:1)​

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No problem, as I've been on the end of these debates where intellectual honesty is thrown out the window for emotion and biased opinion. It gets to the point with some people you have to all but ignore them and just post for the sake of the audience who may be reading this thread.

When members post long lists of quotations from Scripture, it needs to be pointed out that many of these passages admit of more than one interpretation. Hence, just citing Scripture and leaving it go at that really dos not help matters at all. This is especially the case in dealing with the Trinity. Both the Trinitarians and the anti-Trinitarians resorted to Scripture as their final proof. If you want to better understand why there was a conflict in the first place over the Deity of Christ, you need to look more carefully at the passages the Arians cited in support of their view. Also, you need to look more carefully at how the early church incorporated Hellenic metaphysics into their description of God as he is in his own nature and how this led to major problems with the Trinity.

stuart lawrence said:

. . . The fact is, official Trinitarian doctrine, that all the Trinitarian churches are signed up to states a person MUST believe Christ is the one true God alongside the father and holy spirit, in order to be saved. According to their official doctrine this is a salvational matter.

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More false propaganda about Trinitarian doctrine. There is no "alongside" in the Trinity. You should really inform yourself if you are going to try to discuss the Trinity, instead of all these strawmen.

The question then becomes
Is a minister obligated to plainly preach from the pulpit any and every core salvational requirement of belief their denomination stands on?
The answer to that question has to be a resounding yes!
But they do not do it do they, or hardly any of them would dare to if we are honest.
What minister in his right mind is going to stand in the pulpit and plainly state from it:
If you believe Jesus is the son of God but not the one true God you cannot inherit eternal life with such a belief.

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How would you know any of this? Unless you have attended different denominations of Trinitarian churches regularly over a few years you have no way of knowing what they do or do not preach.

stuart lawrence said:

My nephew is a Baptist minister, he had to read the Greek NT in theological college, but he doesn't understand much of the gospel message written in the epistles!

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According to you. I understand this to mean "My nephew does not interpret the epistles the same way I do, therefore he does not know their message."

Hoghead1 said:

When members post long lists of quotations from Scripture, it needs to be pointed out that many of these passages admit of more than one interpretation. Hence, just citing Scripture and leaving it go at that really dos not help matters at all.

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That scriptures are frequently wrested and twisted by heterodox religious groups does not mean that those "interpretations" are valid. What conscientious scholars do is verify any questioned "translations" in the original languages. Interpreting scripture involves more than looking up a word in Strong's and "eenie meenie minie mo" pick a definition you like from all the possibles listed. The tense, voice, mood of a word determines what it means.

This is especially the case in dealing with the Trinity. Both the Trinitarians and the anti-Trinitarians resorted to Scripture as their final proof.

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And that is as it should be but see previous reply.

If you want to better understand why there was a conflict in the first place over the Deity of Christ, you need to look more carefully at the passages the Arians cited in support of their view.

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And you will find that the Arians as the JWs today mistranslated words to make them say what they wanted.

Also, you need to look more carefully at how the early church incorporated Hellenic metaphysics into their description of God as he is in his own nature and how this led to major problems with the Trinity.

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There is no, zero, none evidence that the early church incorporated any "Hellenistic metaphysics" into anything. There was no Trinity or even a defined triad of deities in Greek, Roman or any other culture which could have influenced Christianity.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWhat said:

Theres no reason even with your translation to think that peter isn't talking about God the father when he says the God of us as you translated. 2 peter 1:11 Says Jesus is kyrios of us not theos of us. Thats why it makes good sense to assume God the father is in view in verse 1 but not 11. It is definitely not as clear cut as you make it and if you use logic you can see my point.

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There is a very good reason to believe that Peter called Jesus God and Savior in 2 Peter 1:1. If Peter had wanted to say what you are arguing he would have written that verse differently. And as I said if Jesus is not God and Savior in 2 Peter 1:1 then He is not Lord and Savior" in 2 Peter 1:11. That is known as "context" comparing verses in the same writing by the same person.

If you honestly think you can just read the bible straight up without considering the context but just read the verse and get a full understanding you can't be serious.

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As I said I quoted "in context". "In context" does not mean ignoring the immediate context, which you have chosen to do. Here are two verses very similar to 2 Peter 1:1. Titus 2:13-14 the phrase "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" is exactly the same as 2 peter 1:1 and vs. 11

Further evidence that Jesus is being called God in vs. 13 is the phrase "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
See NET translation notes, below.


The phrase "the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." is exactly the same grammatical structure as 2 peter 1;1 and Titus 2:13

Isaiah 43:14

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Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

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Since you did not state what your point is or how it is relevant this is random scripture posted for the purpose of insulting.