Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Luke17:37 · Jan 15, 2016

iamlamad said:
This really is not true. The group in chapter 7 too large to number is the raptured church. They were not martyred and there is not one word about them to even hint they were. Next, in John's narrative he has not yet even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the midpoint of the week: that is in chapter 11. So these did NOT come out of the days of GT that Jesus spoke of: they will not even begin for another 3.5 years. Therefore John must have had something else in mind by the two words GT. Indeed, he mentioned those two words in one of the letters to the churches, which could not possibly be in reference to the days of GT Jesus spoke of.

What John was really telling us is that at the time of the rapture, it will be great tribulation, as in people being murdered around the world just because they believe in Jesus Christ. All we need do is open our eyes: it is HERE NOW.

Again notice that just those two words, G T were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus to describe the days He was talking about, but went on to add that there never was and never will be days so terrible.

I know you think they are the raptured church--and many would agree with you--yet I don't think the context allows it.

Revelation 6:9–11 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Revelation 7:9–17 (NKJV)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

I believe the most straightforward reading is that the martyrs of the tribulation get white robes while their souls wait in heaven for God to avenge their deaths (and the future deaths of their fellow Christians). That there are too many to count is just that it is a great number of people. He is wiping away their tears because they left the earth in pain. If I live long enough, I expect to be among them.

Since they come out of the great tribulation, they were once in the great tribulation.

I know you won't agree with me.

Fusion77 · Jan 15, 2016

iamlamad said:
Lamad's answers in dark red.

See, the book of Haggai jumps back and forth, from past to future. Each individual message is either a message for the past or for the future. The message will not jump from past to future in the middle of the message. The only time a message changes from past to future, or future to past, is if a day or date is mentioned. The way to determine if it's referring to past or future is if Darius's name is in the day or date. If Darius's name is not there, it is for the future. If Darius's name is there it is for the past.

The first chapter of Haggai has Darius's name in both messages. It was a message for the past. However, I believe it is a type and shadow of things to come. As I said, according to my count it took about 3.5 years to finish building the 2nd temple structure. Same time as the last 3.5 years here on earth.

Whenever Darius's name is not there, it doesn't give a year, only a day or date. So, those messages in Haggai are to be spoken on that day in a particular year. Haggai 2:20 has already been spoken. Haggai 2:1 will be spoken on the 21st day of the 7th month (Tishri), sometime in the future. You can know that because the date tells us that. It will be on the 8th day of the feast of tabernacles, which is what that day is...but we don't know what year.

It must be a word for word translation though. Asv, Nasb, ESV, RSV etc.

iamlamad · Jan 15, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
I think search for the person worthy to open the seals just showed how important it is for this scroll to be opened and how Jesus is uniquely qualified. It magnifies Jesus.

I cannot take any credit for it was all the Holy Spirit. I got stuck on John weeping and John weeping MUCH. I could not get away from those verses. I bugged God for weeks on that. finally He spoke and said, "it shows timing."

So I searched again for days and could not find timing anywhere. Finally He said, "It also shows the movement of time." Again I searched, maybe for weeks and could not see even any movement in time. But it was there all the time.

John watched ONE search for one worthy, which ended in failure, which is why He wept. He wept much because a search in heaven, on earth and under the earth takes time. But ANOTHER search began as soon as the one John watched ended. I am convinced these searches had been ongoing since Adam. So there is the "movement of time."

When "no man was found" that shows us that Jesus had not yet risen from the dead - else He had been found in the first search John watched. The fact that He WAS found worthy in chapter 5 shows us that He had just risen from the dead.

But understand, I could see NONE of this for months until He helped me understand.

Revelation 6:1–2 (NKJV)
6 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

The first rider comes out on a white horse "conquering and to conquer". Jesus also rides on a white horse (Revelation 19). I do not see how this can be Jesus, but I think "white horse" compares him to Jesus in some way. That is why I think he's the Antichrist, or the beast from the sea (chapter 13). Seal 1 and 2 are distinct, so he must conquer "peaceably." Then in seal 2, there is war. For example, when a new president is elected, some people have hope. After he becomes president, he can abuse his power, grasp more, and oppress the people, making decisions which negatively impact many lives (e.g., Hitler).

Keep in mind, John used the color white 17 other times. I hope you look at each one. Each time to represent righteousness. How then would God use it once here to represent evil? NEVER. God simply would not do that. Of course the antichrist would wish to color HIMSELF white, but this is GOD'S book. Next, get the TIMING: remember that chapters 4 & 5 are the CONTEXT. What is the TIME at the end of chapter 5? It is easy to tell (now!) It took me months to finally understand what was written clearly in black and white! Chapter 5 shows us clearly the moment Jesus ascended "as a lamb having been slain" Remember, in chapter 4, the first search He had not yet even risen from the dead: hense "no man was found." then He WAS found, the moment He rose from the dead to become our Redeemer. Then John saw Him ascend. So the TIME at the end of chapter 5 is around 32 AD. You cannot get around this unless you just pull the first seal out of its context.

It is not Jesus, it is the CHURCH that was sent out to conquer, WITH the Gospel. But Satan OWNED the kingdoms of the world, or at least thought he did. He certainly ruled them. He was NOT going to just step aside and allow the gospel out of Jerusalem! NO WAY! The church has had to battle and overcome in every new principality controlled by a prince of the air. So the description fits the church perfectly. We have weapons, but they are spiritual.

Next, you should understand the "THEM" whom power was given. I bugged God about that too, for weeks. WHO was them. All He told was the answer was IN THE VERSE. Wow! How blind I was!

POWER was given to kill with the SWORD: the RED horse rider was given a SWORD.
POWER was given to kill with HUNGER or famine. The BLACK horse brought HUNGER or famine.
POWER was given to kill with DEATH: the pale horse and rider was NAMED DEATH.

So John is telling is that rider one rides alone, while riders 2,3, and 4 right together. Their purpose was to stop the advance of the gospel. You KNOW the devil has done everything in his power to stop the gospel. Trouble for him is, HE CAN'T!

Revelation 6:8 (NKJV)
8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

The fourth seal could mean 1/4 of the population of the earth dies, or it could mean that on 1/4 of the earth (geographically), people are being killed. I tend to lean towards the former, but we'll see.

No, in fact, no death or dying is even mentioned. People just ad lib that part. It just said power was given over a 4th of the earth. that means they COULD NOT OPERATE and do what they do, OUTSIDE that quarter of the earth. We can be SURE that quarter is centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began. That takes in Europe and Africa and some of Western Asian and of course the Middle East. WHERE did the two world wars begin? Where did the black plague hit? Where have all the famines been in our lifetimes?

You and I agree on so little about end times, therefore, it's hard to talk.

Well, all I can say is, wait a while. I think after a while you will begin to lean more towards my understanding.

iamlamad · Jan 15, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
I know you think they are the raptured church--and many would agree with you--yet I don't think the context allows it.

Revelation 6:9–11 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Revelation 7:9–17 (NKJV)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

I believe the most straightforward reading is that the martyrs of the tribulation get white robes while their souls wait in heaven for God to avenge their deaths (and the future deaths of their fellow Christians). That there are too many to count is just that it is a great number of people. He is wiping away their tears because they left the earth in pain. If I live long enough, I expect to be among them.

Since they come out of the great tribulation, they were once in the great tribulation.

I know you won't agree with me.

You see, I will not, can not, simply WON'T rearrange John's book. I am convinced it is written in the correct order as is. I know that John mentioned "great tribulation" in reference to the harlot in one of the churches. God told her and the men that He would cast them into great tribulation if they did not repent. For sure this was written to PEOPLE alive when John sent out his letter to the five churches. So I had to think: would God keep them alive for 2000 years so he could cast them into the GT that Jesus spoke of? I don't think that was the meaning. I think God was saying that HE has the power to created GT ANYTIME He chooses! Therefore I see that John used "great tribulation" here that is NOT RELATED to the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, that really will not begin until late in chapter 14 or chapter 15.

Therefore I cannot believe that John was talking about seeing a group from way in the future for where he was now in his narrative. That would not and does not make sense. John is VERY ACCURATE with his chronology.

I also believe the church has been waiting since the beginning between seals 5 and 6, waiting for the Day of the Lord and judgment to come -which come at seal 6. I also believe that in 1 Thes. 5 Paul tells us that HIS TIMING for the rapture will be as the trigger for the DAY as in when the dead in Christ rise, that will cause a great earthquake which Paul called "sudden destruction." So a moment after the Dead in Christ rise, God has to pull out those alive in Christ or they too will not escape the earthquake sudden destruction. So the dead in Christ rise as the ground begins to shake, while those left behind cannot escape.

I find then the rapture comes a moment before the great earthquake at the 6th seal. It makes PERFECT SENSE then that John would SEE them shortly after that...and he DOES.

There is nothing in their description that even HINTS that they are martyrs. in fact, I think MOST in the church would recognize them as the raptured saints except for those two troublesome words, GT. Now that I see John used those words in another place and it did not mean the GT Jesus spoke of, I understand John is telling us it WILL BE "great tribulation" at the time of the rapture - just NOT the days of GT Jesus spoke of. What then could John mean? MANY will be dying as martyrs around the world at the time of the rapture. You know how bad it is now. It will get MUCH worse as people think they are doing God a favor by murdering a believer. NOt to mention they will get 21 virgins - so they have been told. Imagine what it would be like to believe and you do but you live in Saudi Arabia. Now imagine it would be like that HERE before the rapture comes. How could "tribulation" get any greater for those that are martyred? They cannot be murdered twice!

Next, I am very familiar with John's chronology. I find his narrative walking right through time, from the beginning of the week to the end. So I know, the intent of the author is that those martyred during the days of GT will NOT HAPPEN until chapter 15. Therefore I know automatically that John COULD NOT be speaking of those days way back in chapter 7.

As you see, I have many reasons why I believe they are the raptured church.

TWO events must happen in our future before the 7th seal can be opened or broken:

first, the church MUST be taken out of the world because God's wrath is coming.
Second, the 144,000 MUST BE SEALED for their protection before the Trumpets begin.

John does this in chapter 7.

iamlamad · Jan 15, 2016

Fusion77 said:
See, the book of Haggai jumps back and forth, from past to future. Each individual message is either a message for the past or for the future. The message will not jump from past to future in the middle of the message. The only time a message changes from past to future, or future to past, is if a day or date is mentioned. The way to determine if it's referring to past or future is if Darius's name is in the day or date. If Darius's name is not there, it is for the future. If Darius's name is there it is for the past.
Yes, I see that. I did not see that before. I never spent much time in Haggai, not understanding it had some end times scripture.

The first chapter of Haggai has Darius's name in both messages. It was a message for the past. However, I believe it is a type and shadow of things to come. As I said, according to my count it took about 3.5 years to finish building the 2nd temple structure. Same time as the last 3.5 years here on earth.

Whenever Darius's name is not there, it doesn't give a year, only a day or date.
I did not notice that. Ah! I see, no "2nd year of Darius!"

So, those messages in Haggai are to be spoken on that day in a particular year. Haggai 2:20 has already been spoken. Haggai 2:1 will be spoken on the 21st day of the 7th month (Tishri), sometime in the future. You can know that because the date tells us that. It will be on the 8th day of the feast of tabernacles, which is what that day is...but we don't know what year.

I see. thanks.

keras · Jan 15, 2016

iamlamad said:
TWO events must happen in our future before the 7th seal can be opened or broken:first, the church MUST be taken out of the world because God's wrath is coming.
Second, the 144,000 MUST BE SEALED for their protection before the Trumpets begin.
John does this in chapter 7.

Right: the event before the Seventh Seal, is the Sixth Seal, which is the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, a worldwide disaster mentioned and detailed throughout the Bible.
Wrong: the 'church' is taken out of this world. Nowhere does prophecy say that, what is said many times, is the Lord will provide protection for His people. 2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knows how to keep His people safe, while the ungodly are punished on the Day of Judgement.
They will gather into all of the holy Land and the 144K will be selected from them.

Psalms 91:14-16 When you call, I shall answer, I will rescue you in times of trouble.
Isaiah 43:2 ...when you pass thru fire, you will not be burned....
Isaiah 24:4 Truly You have been a refuge for Your people in their time of distress. A shelter from the tempest, shade from the heat.
Psalms 20:6-8 Victory will come to the Lord and those who rely on Him, will rise up and stand firm.
Psalms 70:4 Let all who seek the Lord rejoice! All who long for His rescue, will shout: All glory to God!
Isaiah 57:15b I shall revive the spirit of the humble and restore the courage of the broken.
Jeremiah 51:50 You that escaped the sword, go – do not linger. Remember the Lord from afar and let Jerusalem come to your mind.
Isaiah 46:4 Till you grow old, I shall carry you away to safety.
Psalms 97:10-12 The Lord’s servants are kept safe. A harvest of light comes to the righteous.
Psalms 107:1-43 Give thanks, you who are redeemed by the Lord, saved from the power of the enemy and gathered from all the world.......the poor He lifts clear of troubles.
Isaiah 24:14-16a People from all over the world will acclaim the Lord, from the coasts and islands, they sing; giving glory to the Righteous One.
Isaiah 49:9-11 I say to those in exile: go free, come out to a Land of plenty. It will not be too hot, the Lord who loves them, will guide them.
Isaiah 52:11-12 Go out of Babylon....you will not flee in haste, the Lord will guide and guard you.
Isaiah 49:22-23 I shall beckon to the nations, they will carry you and serve you. They will bow before you and none who look to Me will be disappointed.
Jeremiah 30:10 & 18 Do not be afraid, My servants, I will bring you back safe from afar. I shall restore your fortunes, your towns will be rebuilt.
Ezekiel 20:34-36 I shall bring you out of the nations....to the Meeting place in the desert. I shall judge you and those who revolt and rebel will not enter that Land.
Jeremiah 33:12-13 In this Land, there will once more be heard sounds of joy and gladness. My people will offer praise and thanksgiving in the House of the Lord. In this place, ruined and empty of people and animals, there will again be flocks of people and sheep, in all of the Land of Israel.
Isaiah 32:15-17 Then the Spirit from on high will come upon us. The Land will flourish and justice and righteousness will fill the Land, peace and quiet rest will prevail forever.

Colossians 1:11-12 In His glorious might, may He give you ample strength to meet with fortitude and patience whatever comes. Give joyful thanks to the Father who has made you fit to share the heritage of His people in the Kingdom of light.

Micah 7:11 Your boundaries will be extended on the day Gods people return, from every sea and every mountain.
Zechariah 8:7 This is the word of the Lord; I am about to rescue My people from the countries to the East and West. They will be My people and I shall be their Lord in faithfulness and peace.
Zechariah 10:8-12 I shall whistle to call them in, those yet in far off lands, they will remember Me. I shall lead them into Gilead and Lebanon – there will not be room enough for all of them.
Psalms 68:8-10 When You marched through the desert with your people, the earth shook and the sky poured rain. The Land was restored and Your people settled.

Psalms 107 Give thanks to the Lord all you redeemed and gathered out of all the lands of the earth.
Some wandered in the wastelands, they cried to the Lord. He led them to a city where they could live.
Some were prisoners – they had rebelled against God, they cried to the Lord. He saved them from distress.
Some were fools who took to rebellious ways, their punishment was a revulsion of food, they nearly starved, they cried to the Lord – He saved them.
Others in ships at sea, the storms tossed them about, they cried to the Lord, the storms ceased and He guided them to safe harbour. The desert blooms, they build and plant, flocks and herds increase. Whoever is wise, let him think on things to heart and ponder the loving deeds of the Lord.

Riberra · Jan 15, 2016

Bible2+ said:
Riberra said:

Riberra said in post 6168:

Hebrew 12:27 explain the meaning of the expression -shaking the Heaven and the Earth- however it does not explain the first time that God's voice have shook the Earth mentioned in v 26 -

Click to expand...

Hebrews 12:26a refers to the time at Mt. Sinai (Hebrews 12:18-21) when the mountain literally shook (Exodus 19:18).

Thanks.That could be that,this is what have come in mind first ....However the text from Hebrew Hebrews 12:26 seem to litteraly imply this was the whole Earth that was shook then ...not just a mountain...I will try to digg that .I think that it is related to Genesis 1:2a
Genesis 1:2
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

Riberra · Jan 15, 2016

iamlamad said:
You see, I will not, can not, simply WON'T rearrange John's book. I am convinced it is written in the correct order as is. I know that John mentioned "great tribulation" in reference to the harlot in one of the churches. God told her and the men that He would cast them into great tribulation if they did not repent. For sure this was written to PEOPLE alive when John sent out his letter to the five churches. So I had to think: would God keep them alive for 2000 years so he could cast them into the GT that Jesus spoke of? I don't think that was the meaning. I think God was saying that HE has the power to created GT ANYTIME He chooses! Therefore I see that John used "great tribulation" here that is NOT RELATED to the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, that really will not begin until late in chapter 14 or chapter 15.

Nobody have to rearrange Revelation to see that the crowd to large to number arrayed in white robes seen before the throne of God mentioned in Revelation 7:9–17 are related to those martyrs mentioned at the opening of the 5th seal....they are the fullfilment of the 5th seal prophecy mentioned in Revelation 6:11
Revelation 6:9–11 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

They came out of -great tribulation- in that case refers to the tribulation that all those who were slain for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God have endured since 2,000 years / beginning at the time of John and the other apostles.John describe himself in Revelation 1:9 as being a brother into tribulation in 90 AD.

But you are right to say that those who will be beheaded during the 3 1/2 years reign of the AC/Beast begin to appear in Heaven only in Revelation 15. As a new group set apart ...
Revelation 15:2
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the WRATH of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God.

iamlamad · Jan 15, 2016

keras said:
Right: the event before the Seventh Seal, is the Sixth Seal, which is the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, a worldwide disaster mentioned and detailed throughout the Bible.
Wrong: the 'church' is taken out of this world. Nowhere does prophecy say that, what is said many times, is the Lord will provide protection for His people. 2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knows how to keep His people safe, while the ungodly are punished on the Day of Judgement.
They will gather into all of the holy Land and the 144K will be selected from them.

Psalms 91:14-16 When you call, I shall answer, I will rescue you in times of trouble.
Isaiah 43:2 ...when you pass thru fire, you will not be burned....
Isaiah 24:4 Truly You have been a refuge for Your people in their time of distress. A shelter from the tempest, shade from the heat.
Psalms 20:6-8 Victory will come to the Lord and those who rely on Him, will rise up and stand firm.
Psalms 70:4 Let all who seek the Lord rejoice! All who long for His rescue, will shout: All glory to God!
Isaiah 57:15b I shall revive the spirit of the humble and restore the courage of the broken.
Jeremiah 51:50 You that escaped the sword, go – do not linger. Remember the Lord from afar and let Jerusalem come to your mind.
Isaiah 46:4 Till you grow old, I shall carry you away to safety.
Psalms 97:10-12 The Lord’s servants are kept safe. A harvest of light comes to the righteous.
Psalms 107:1-43 Give thanks, you who are redeemed by the Lord, saved from the power of the enemy and gathered from all the world.......the poor He lifts clear of troubles.
Isaiah 24:14-16a People from all over the world will acclaim the Lord, from the coasts and islands, they sing; giving glory to the Righteous One.
Isaiah 49:9-11 I say to those in exile: go free, come out to a Land of plenty. It will not be too hot, the Lord who loves them, will guide them.
Isaiah 52:11-12 Go out of Babylon....you will not flee in haste, the Lord will guide and guard you.
Isaiah 49:22-23 I shall beckon to the nations, they will carry you and serve you. They will bow before you and none who look to Me will be disappointed.
Jeremiah 30:10 & 18 Do not be afraid, My servants, I will bring you back safe from afar. I shall restore your fortunes, your towns will be rebuilt.
Ezekiel 20:34-36 I shall bring you out of the nations....to the Meeting place in the desert. I shall judge you and those who revolt and rebel will not enter that Land.
Jeremiah 33:12-13 In this Land, there will once more be heard sounds of joy and gladness. My people will offer praise and thanksgiving in the House of the Lord. In this place, ruined and empty of people and animals, there will again be flocks of people and sheep, in all of the Land of Israel.
Isaiah 32:15-17 Then the Spirit from on high will come upon us. The Land will flourish and justice and righteousness will fill the Land, peace and quiet rest will prevail forever.

Colossians 1:11-12 In His glorious might, may He give you ample strength to meet with fortitude and patience whatever comes. Give joyful thanks to the Father who has made you fit to share the heritage of His people in the Kingdom of light.

Micah 7:11 Your boundaries will be extended on the day Gods people return, from every sea and every mountain.
Zechariah 8:7 This is the word of the Lord; I am about to rescue My people from the countries to the East and West. They will be My people and I shall be their Lord in faithfulness and peace.
Zechariah 10:8-12 I shall whistle to call them in, those yet in far off lands, they will remember Me. I shall lead them into Gilead and Lebanon – there will not be room enough for all of them.
Psalms 68:8-10 When You marched through the desert with your people, the earth shook and the sky poured rain. The Land was restored and Your people settled.

Psalms 107 Give thanks to the Lord all you redeemed and gathered out of all the lands of the earth.
Some wandered in the wastelands, they cried to the Lord. He led them to a city where they could live.
Some were prisoners – they had rebelled against God, they cried to the Lord. He saved them from distress.
Some were fools who took to rebellious ways, their punishment was a revulsion of food, they nearly starved, they cried to the Lord – He saved them.
Others in ships at sea, the storms tossed them about, they cried to the Lord, the storms ceased and He guided them to safe harbour. The desert blooms, they build and plant, flocks and herds increase. Whoever is wise, let him think on things to heart and ponder the loving deeds of the Lord.

Those are all GREAT verses for the time in which they were meant. But the 70th week is a different time - a different dispensation - where a NEW LAW will be in effect: The saints will be OVERCOME. You cannot get around this verse. You cannot go under this verse or over it: during the days of GT the saints WILL BE overcome.

Just to keep things absolutely straight, this means JUST THE OPPOSITE of keeping the saints safe. This law of God will only be in effect during those days of GT. It will be the time of GOD'S WRATH on the earth, which is one reason WHY the saints will be overcome. They SHOULD HAVE BEEN READY for the pretrib rapture. They were not so their only chance of heaven will be through DEATH at the hands of the BEAST. God's will is to REMOVE His saints before that day so they will not be under His wrath.

iamlamad · Jan 15, 2016

Riberra said:
Nobody have to rearrange Revelation to see that the crowd to large to number arrayed in white robes seen before the throne of God mentioned in Revelation 7:9–17 are related to those martyrs mentioned at the opening of the 5th seal....they are the fullfilment of the 5th seal prophecy mentioned in Revelation 6:11
Revelation 6:9–11 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

They came out of -great tribulation- in that case refers to the tribulation that all those who were slain for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God have endured since 2,000 years / beginning at the time of John and the other apostles.John describe himself in Revelation 1:9 as being a brother into tribulation in 90 AD.

But you are right to say that those who will be beheaded during the 3 1/2 years reign of the AC/Beast begin to appear in Heaven only in Revelation 15. As a new group set apart ...
Revelation 15:2
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the WRATH of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God.

Ah! I have been wrong about this! I confess! I was completely mistaken. Not on who each group is, but that they ARE connected. There IS a relationship between them. They are NOT the same group, but the first group will be INCLUDED in the second group as the Dead in Christ who will rise first! I missed that point earlier. OF COURSE all martyrs of the church age will be included in the "Dead in Christ" at the rapture. So they will certainly be A SMALL PART of the raptured church too large to number - as seen in Rev. 7.

Riberra · Jan 15, 2016

iamlamad said:
Ah! I have been wrong about this! I confess! I was completely mistaken. Not on who each group is, but that they ARE connected. There IS a relationship between them. They are NOT the same group, but the first group will be INCLUDED in the second group as the Dead in Christ who will rise first! I missed that point earlier. OF COURSE all martyrs of the church age will be included in the "Dead in Christ" at the rapture. So they will certainly be A SMALL PART of the raptured church too large to number - as seen in Rev. 7.

All of these groups are the SOULS/SPIRITS of dead martyrs believers which are seen in Heaven .None of them were raptured at any time.They will all be part of the resurrection of the believers upon Jesus coming AFTER the Tribulation.

Job8 · Jan 15, 2016

Riberra said:
All of these groups are the SOULS/SPIRITS of dead martyrs believers which are seen in Heaven .None of them were raptured at any time.They will all be part of the resurrection of the believers upon Jesus coming AFTER the Tribulation.

Actually you are seriously mistaken. If your scenario would be correct, every Christian would have been beheaded.

Riberra · Jan 15, 2016

Job8 said:
Actually you are seriously mistaken. If your scenario would be correct, every Christian would have been beheaded.

Wrong, the SOULS/SPIRITS of Christians who have died from natural death are also in Heaven.But it appear that John saw only those who were slain for their testimony of Jesus ....

keras · Jan 16, 2016

iamlamad said:
Those are all GREAT verses for the time in which they were meant. But the 70th week is a different time - a different dispensation - where a NEW LAW will be in effect: The saints will be OVERCOME. You cannot get around this verse. You cannot go under this verse or over it: during the days of GT the saints WILL BE overcome.

What these verses and many others as well, pertain to is the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal, not the 3.5 years period of the Great Tribulation.
We know Satan will pursue and persecute some Christians during this period, but we see that those who kept their faith and refused to accede to the treaty with the leader of the OWG, Daniel 11:32, will be taken to a place of safety on earth for those 1260 days. At which time Jesus will send His angels to gather them back to Jerusalem. At no time do any of them go to live in heaven.
Also in Zechariah 14:2, there another reference to these two groups: the half who go into exile are the 'woman' and the rest, who are 'overcome' by the AC, they did agree to the treaty, must remain and experience the GT.

Bible2+ · Jan 16, 2016

iamlamad said in post 6183:

And by the way, in your theory, all would MISS the marriage and supper which will take place in heaven before Jesus comes.

Actually, no. For in Revelation 19:7, the church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for the wedding, and it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).

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iamlamad said in post 6197:

I take it that the shaking of both heaven and earth will come during the Day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel and will begin at the 6th seal.

Regarding the day of the Lord, note that the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Regarding the shaking of both heaven and earth in Hebrews 12:26-29, it can refer to the same thing as 2 Peter 3:10-13, which means that in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the 1st heaven: the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All of these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

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iamlamad said in post 6208:

The 5th seal are martyrs of the church age.

Regarding "the church age", note that there is no such thing. For the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

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iamlamad said in post 6218:

The Gentile church was in its infancy and the Jewish churches were almost gone.

Note that there is no such thing as "the Gentile church". For the church includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Bible2+ · Jan 16, 2016

Fusion77 said in post 6201:

the AC will use Zechariah 14:16 by pointing out what the prophet Zechariah says. He'll claim to be the Lord when he sets up the AOD.

Zechariah 14:16 ¶And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Note that here, in the original Hebrew, the "LORD" is "YHWH".

And the Antichrist won't say that he is YHWH. Instead, he will utterly revile YHWH (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:6). For the Antichrist will be a Gnostic (1 John 4:3), and Gnostics revile YHWH. At the same time, the Antichrist will be a Luciferian, for he will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer/Satan, the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). Luciferians revile YHWH as being evil, just as YHWH rebukes Lucifer/Satan as being evil (Zechariah 3:2, Isaiah 14:12-15).

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But Christians need to be aware that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that he is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the 1st book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And he could claim that even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing that it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is that 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply show that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same entity.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

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Fusion77 said in post 6203:

Again, it is my position that the seals, trumpets and vials are all in sequence.

That's right.

For Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will rapture and marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

Psalm3704 · Jan 16, 2016

Riberra said:
There is no trip to Heaven where God reside mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 this agree with Matthew 24:29-31 perfectly.
The caught up and gathering together (Rapture) is to meet Jesus in the air Unto the Coming of the Lord.

Riberra, if there is no trip to heaven, and 1 Thess 4:15-17 is the same as Matthew 24:29-31, than how did the elects get to heaven in Matthew 24:31?

Matthew 24:31 NKJV
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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Psalm3704 · Jan 16, 2016

Bible2+ said:
That's right.

For the English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

Note that Revelation 4:1 refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Regarding Isaiah 26:19-20, note that Isaiah 26:20 can start a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And so nothing requires that Isaiah 26:20-21 has to happen after Isaiah 26:19. Instead, Isaiah 26:20-21 can be addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they won't be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Also, nothing forbids believers from preparing these chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

In Revelation 4:1, "after this" simply means after John had been instructed in Revelation chapters 2-3 what to write to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

Similarly, the letters of the books of Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and 1 & 2 Thessalonians were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman Empire.

And note that just as nothing requires that this latter set of 7 churches represents "7 church ages", so nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the former set does.

Also, all scripture is profitable for us as Christians (2 Timothy 3:16), so we can learn lessons for our own lives today by reading all of these letters.

There was a contrast between the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's coming, with some of them showing him coming to be meekly crucified for our sins (Isaiah 53, Psalms 22), and others showing him literally descending from heaven to wage war and to physically reign on the earth (Zechariah 14, Micah 4:1-4). But note that nothing in the Old or New Testament requires a future (to us), pre-tribulation coming of Christ versus only a post-tribulation coming of Christ. For all the as-yet-unfulfilled Old and New Testament prophecies regarding Christ's coming will be fulfilled at or sometime after his post-tribulation coming.

Note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 says or requires that Jesus won't at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19. And there is no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either, but it is still the same 2nd coming as Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21, there is no explicit descent to the earth, even though it is the same 2nd coming as Zechariah 14:3-5, which has no explicit white horse.

That's right.

And the 3 stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 physical resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits physical resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23, Luke 24:39); 2. the future physical resurrection of the entire church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Romans 8:23-25), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31), and right before the millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the physical resurrection at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Regarding the Old Testament saints, note that all obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

In 2 Timothy 2:15b, "rightly dividing the word of truth" refers to how the Bible was originally written down in manuscripts which had no spaces between the words, no punctuation, and no distinguishing capitalization or non-capitalization. That is, it was just an unbroken stream of upper- or lower-case letters. So, for example, Genesis 1:6-7 would have looked like this:

andgodsaidlettherebeafirmamentinthemidstofthewatersandletitdividethewa
tersfromthewatersandgodmadethefirmamentanddividedthewaterswhichwere
underthefirmamentfromthewaterswhichwereabovethefirmamentanditwasso

This meant that those who studied the Bible (2 Timothy 2:15a) had to rightly divide between the words in order to arrive at the correct meaning. So, in the above example, if one mistakenly divided "watersandletitdividethewaters" into the words "water: sand, let it divide the waters", one would come away with the mistaken idea that Genesis 1:6-7 refers to God creating sand bars, instead of him creating the atmosphere (the firmament, the 1st heaven, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20b) to hold water up in the air (such as in clouds), above and separate from the water in the ocean.

Regarding Galatians 3:28:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).

Note that here, Paul can't possibly mean that there are no believers who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, because elsewhere he shows, for example, that believers remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean that there are no believers who are males or females, for clearly we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a).

So Galatians 3:28 can only mean that there is no distinction between believing Jews and Gentiles, or between believing males and females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

Regarding Ephesians 2:11-22:

When Ephesians 2:11 says "ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh", it is addressing believing genetic Gentiles who in the past were unsaved, but then became saved, and became spiritually-circumcised spiritual Jews by undergoing the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

When Ephesians 2:11 says "who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands", it means the physically-circumcised Jews who mistakenly thought physical circumcision was still required (e.g. Acts 15:1,5) were mistakenly considering the now-saved, genetic Gentiles who had become spiritually-circumcised, spiritual Jews as still being uncircumcised, spiritual Gentiles.

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Ephesians 2:12,19 is addressing believers who are genetic Gentiles rather than genetic Jews (e.g. Romans 11:1).

Ephesians 2:12,19 means that believing genetic Gentiles aren't strangers to Israel, but are fellowcitizens in Israel along with believing genetic Jews. See also Ephesians 3:6, which means that believing Gentiles become fellowheirs with believing Israelites, and of the same body as Israel, and partakers of God's promise in Christ made to Israel.

All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

Similarly, just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

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Ephesians 2:15-16, like Colossians 2:14-17, means that on the Cross, Jesus forever abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

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Ephesians 2:17 refers to the fact that, for example, Jesus preached in John 10:16 that he had "other sheep", meaning genetic Gentiles, who would become believers in him and be brought by him into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12).

Regarding the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4), note that they could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

Also, the 24 elders sitting on thrones (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the devil can sit on a throne (Revelation 2:13, Revelation 13:2b), then some angels can sit on thrones.

Also, the 24 elders being called "elders" (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, even though angels don't age. For they can be a special group of elder angels simply in the sense of them having been created sometime before other angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because no other part of the Bible ever refers to angels as "elders". But this argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they wear crowns of victory. But in Revelation 4:4, the original Greek word (stephanos: G4735) translated as crowns doesn't have to always refer to a crown of victory, but can sometimes refer to a crown signifying "honor generally" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Also, angels can win victories (Revelation 12:7-9), and so can wear crowns of victory.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they perform physical acts (Revelation 4:10). But angels can perform physical acts, like how the 2 angels who rescued Lot and his family grabbed their hands to hasten them out of the city (Genesis 19:1,16).

Note that Revelation 21:12 refers to Israel's 12 tribes in its description of the bride of Christ in Revelation 21:9. And the bride of Christ is the church (Ephesians 5:30-32; 2 Corinthians 11:2).

Revelation 21:2,9,10 means that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Something can be literal and at the same time symbolically picture something else, like how in Matthew 21:19, the fig tree was literal and at the same time its being without fruit symbolically pictured unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel being without fruit (Matthew 21:43).

Just as New Jerusalem's literal wall foundations have the names of the 12 apostles on them (Revelation 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Ephesians 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's literal pearly gates have the names of Israel's 12 tribes on them (Revelation 21:12,21), so the church consists of Israel's 12 tribes. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

10 Reasons for the PreTribulation Rapture

1. The unity of Daniel’s seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel’s seventieth week and confuse Israel’s program with that of the church.

2. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.

3. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:17).

4. The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.

5. The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

6. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth” (Rev. 3:10).

7. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).

8. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father’s house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.

9. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.

10. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).

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Luke17:37 · Jan 16, 2016

Job8 said:
Actually you are seriously mistaken. If your scenario would be correct, every Christian would have been beheaded.

If Christians living in the Great Tribulation don't die some other way (e.g., war, disease, accident, animal attack, heat stroke, starvation), I expect them to be killed eventually for their faith - with the exception of the 144,000 sealed Messianic Jews. (These have a chance to survive, and biblically, some will survive). I don't know if the Tribulation martyrs are all beheaded or not.

However, consider who is favoring beheadings today. If the Islamic Mahdi comes, and later the Islamic Isa (both predicted in Islamic eschatology, apparently), these could be the beast of the sea (Antichrist) and beast of the earth (False Prophet). If Isa comes claiming to be a non-divine Jesus who did not die for sins (that is what Islam teaches about Jesus), and with lying wonders causes people to worship the Mahdi or be killed, many may believe the lie. I don't know if this will happen or not, but since Islamic and Biblical eschatology have some key points that appear to line up, and since Islam is gaining ground, I think it is a possibility to be aware of.

BABerean2 · Jan 16, 2016

Psalm3704 said:
1. The unity of Daniel’s seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel’s seventieth week and confuse Israel’s program with that of the church.

In Romans chapter 11 the Apostle Paul says the branches broken off may be grafted back into the Olive Tree through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Blood Covenant Church.

The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6.
The New Covenant was foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Hebrews 8:13 says the Old Sinai Covenant is now obsolete.

A future 70th week of Daniel when God saves the modern Jews outside of the New Covenant Grace of the Church, is the pretribulationists most serious error. It is an idea proven wrong by scripture and Paul warned against it in Galatians 1:6-9.

The Church is the only plan now in effect, until the Second Coming of Christ.
There is no separate program for Israel, outside of the Church.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Dr. Kelly Varner on Daniel Chapter 9

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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