Why do people believe in a Rapture?

iamlamad · Jan 14, 2016

Fusion77 said:
After the 6th trumpet the witnesses are given authority to witness like a signet denotes authority. Hello! Haggai 2:23 a signet. The witnesses start their ministry of witnessing after the war in Haggai 2:20-23. Just like they do, after the 6th trumpet, they're the same war!

You'd be wise to listen to the prophets!

But HOW LONG AFTER the war? There is a war COMING, very soon!

iamlamad · Jan 14, 2016

Fusion77 said:
This forum doesn't permit the

you know I can't answer that. 1 reason is the forum doesn't permit "personal revelation". But, scripture backs what the Lord showed, and that is more than enough.

Scripture backs what He has showed me also. But you could send me a personal message.

Isn't it sad when some of the book of Acts is Paul giving HIS personal revelation?

Fusion77 · Jan 14, 2016

iamlamad said:
What you have to realize is that the 7 trumpets and 7 vials PROVE what they said was true. You many not see it yet, but you will, for it is truth.

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

HCSB
Look, the day of the Lord is coming—cruel, with rage and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners on it.

You tell me, how can the trumpets and vials NOT be fulfilling this verse? Does 1/3 of the seas turning to blood sound like desolation? How about ALL the seas? How about earthquakes that move all mountains or earthquakes so great the mountains disappear? How about all the fresh water turning to blood? EVERY trumpet judgment and every vial is fulling this verse in Isaiah 13.

By the way, how long after a SIGN would God bring the reality?

The vials will fulfill this. After the 7th trumpet comes the wrath of God in Revelation 11:18 in the interlinear it says Your wrath is come. Not that it has come. vials are the wrath of God. Just like the people of those days missed the sign of the coming of Jesus, I believe we're farther ahead, than anyone thinks. I've just, basically, today decided I think we're that far along.

I'm going to agree with the guy I listen to on the radio. It's called end of the age with Irvin Baxter. I think he's nailed it. I had reservations at first, but he's got events that he equates all the way to the 5th trumpet. Knowing a big war that shakes both the heavens and the earth looms on the horizon...I have to side with him.

Fusion77 · Jan 14, 2016

iamlamad said:
But HOW LONG AFTER the war? There is a war COMING, very soon!

Look REAL close at how this message in Haggai has gone forth. I told you there are messages in Haggai veiled to the witness and even to the church. I'll share the obvious one.

There's no mistaking God has not shaken BOTH the heavens and the earth. Again, we know this from Hebrews 12:26-27. Haggai mentions the shaking of both the heavens and the earth, so we know it still awaits. Did you know the original ancient Hebrew has no punctuation marks? Let me show you how Haggai 2:20-21 should be punctuated. I'm moving 1 period, to where it should be. Haggai 2:20-21 ESV...

The word of the Lord came a second time to Haggai. On the 24th day of the month, speak to Zerubbabel the governor of Judah, saying, I am about to shake the heavens and the earth. Here the Lord is telling Haggai to speak to Zerubbabel on a specific day 2535 years later.

This message was preserved for 2535 years to the day, and delivered on the 24th day of the ninth month our year 2015...through the writings of the prophet Haggai. That day was the first day of Chanukah, which is the feast of dedication, which was 12/06/2015 You decide how much longer until it happens.

The feast of dedication was meaningless when Haggai was alive the rededication of the temple was some 350 years later. There's an easy way to tell which messages are for us in this day and age. This is one of them, and the Lord has spoken it from the pages of the prophet Haggai.

iamlamad · Jan 14, 2016

Fusion77 said:
The vials will fulfill this. After the 7th trumpet comes the wrath of God in Revelation 11:18 in the interlinear it says Your wrath is come. Not that it has come. vials are the wrath of God. Just like the people of those days missed the sign of the coming of Jesus, I believe we're farther ahead, than anyone thinks. I've just, basically, today decided I think we're that far along.

I'm going to agree with the guy I listen to on the radio. It's called end of the age with Irvin Baxter. I think he's nailed it. I had reservations at first, but he's got events that he equates all the way to the 5th trumpet. Knowing a big war that shakes both the heavens and the earth looms on the horizon...I have to side with him.

There is simply NO WAY any trumpet has sounded, because NO ANGEL gets a trumpet to sound until the 7th seal has been broken. Understand that what we see happening after the 7th seal has been broken is what is written INSIDE the scroll sealed with the 7 seals. It is impossible anything inside could be seen, read or come to pass before all 7 seals are broken - - and they are NOT yet.

For example, where is the great earthquake of the 6th seal? Of course it is FUTURE. And where is the rapture that will come as the trigger for the 6th seal? Of course, that too has not happened yet.

Just remember, no matter HOW it is translated, it is a Greek Aorist verb that shows NO tense at all. We have no such verbs in English, it is impossible to have an exact translation. These verbs so NO timing. Of course the vials are full of His wrath: John tells us that. But it is still true, whether or not you believe it: at the start of the Day of the Lord, God begins to destroy the earth and take out the sinners in the earth. Each trumpet judgment is one step in the destruction. compare, for example, "destroy the sinners" with the 6th trumpet that kills 1/3 of earth's population. How can you imagine God would do that and it NOT be in wrath and fulfilling what Isaiah wrote?

iamlamad · Jan 14, 2016

Fusion77 said:
Look REAL close at how this message in Haggai has gone forth. I told you there are messages in Haggai veiled to the witness and even to the church. I'll share the obvious one.

There's no mistaking God has not shaken BOTH the heavens and the earth. Again, we know this from Hebrews 12:26-27. Haggai mentions the shaking of both the heavens and the earth, so we know it still awaits. Did you know the original ancient Hebrew has no punctuation marks? Let me show you how Haggai 2:20-21 should be punctuated. I'm moving 1 period, to where it should be. Haggai 2:20-21 ESV...

The word of the Lord came a second time to Haggai. On the 24th day of the month, speak to Zerubbabel the governor of Judah, saying, I am about to shake the heavens and the earth. Here the Lord is telling Haggai to speak to Zerubbabel on a specific day 2535 years later.

This message was preserved for 2535 years to the day, and delivered on the 24th day of the ninth month our year 2015...through the writings of the prophet Haggai. That day was the first day of Chanukah, which is the feast of dedication, which was 12/06/2015 You decide how much longer until it happens.

The feast of dedication was meaningless when Haggai was alive the rededication of the temple was some 350 years later. There's an easy way to tell which messages are for us in this day and age. This is one of them, and the Lord has spoken it from the pages of the prophet Haggai.

A wise bible professor at a bible college said something I have never forgotten. It has been far too long for me to get close to word for word, but I remember the gist of what he said. God is a self revealing God, and over time reveals more and more of Himself and His kingdom. Therefore doctrine should be formed from later revelations rather then former ones, and from the most indepth scriptures on a subject rather than an overview verse, and then missing pieces filled in from the lessor verses. Revelation is by far the most in depth look we have at the future. Yet some on this thread just IGNORE what John wrote and hold to a doctrine or theory that is flatly refuted in Revelation. We should form our doctrine FIRST from Revelation and they fill in missing pieces from the minor prophets. It seems you have done just the opposite.

However, if indeed God has showed you these things, they MUST fit with John's Revelation. However how do you know that prophecy was for 2015? Why not 2016 or 2020?

Read in Amplified:

20 And again the word of the Lord came to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month (Dec 18, 520 b.c.), saying, 21 “Speak to Zerubbabel governor of Judah, saying, ‘I am going to shake the heavens and the earth. 22 I will [in the distant future] overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the [ungodly] nations; and I will overthrow the chariots and those who ride in them, and the horses and their riders will go down, every one by the sword of his brother [annihilating one another]. 23 ‘On that day,’ declares the Lord of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, My servant,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will make you [through the Messiah, your descendant] like a signet ring, for I have chosen you [as the one with whom to renew My covenant to David’s line],’” declares the Lord of hosts.

This makes perfect sense in the sense it is written, that the word of the Lord to Haggai was for him to speak to Zerubbabel THEN, 520 BC and give him the message.

If there is a second meaning, for the future, God would have to tell me. I would REALLY like to know how God taught you this.

We have Psalm 83. We have Ezekiel 38 & 39. WE have an imminent war which will probably be started with someone bombing Iran's nuclear facilities. But who knows? It could be started with North Korea. In any case I think it is VERY SOON. Will it last right up to the battle of Armageddon? It could, but I doubt it. It might turn things so that Israel can build their temple.

Fusion77 · Jan 14, 2016

Fusion77 said:
But HOW LONG AFTER the war? There is a war COMING, very soon!

according to Haggai 2:23 after the war God will Make Zerubbabel His "Signet" this is when the ministry of the witnesses begin. In Revelation 11:3 there is a gap between "And I will give authority to my 2 witnesses" 3.5- 10 or more years until "and they prophesy 1260 days clothed in sackcloth". The authority just means they will speak (witness) on behalf of Jesus with authority from God to a world that is shaken up from a major catastrophe...they'll be more receptive m. Revelation 11:6 says they will only have those powers during the time that they prophesy 1260 days, not for the entire time that they witness too. These powers of protection are defensive, to kill anyone. The Lords battle is not physical, it's just to protect them until they've completed their testimony. They only kill anyone who tries to harm them.

The ministry of the 2 witnesses begins after the war. They will witness until they're dispatched on the 8th day of the feast or tabernacles 20??. After that they'll prophesy clothed in sackcloth.

Fusion77 · Jan 14, 2016

iamlamad said:
A wise bible professor at a bible college said something I have never forgotten. It has been far too long for me to get close to word for word, but I remember the gist of what he said. God is a self revealing God, and over time reveals more and more of Himself and His kingdom. Therefore doctrine should be formed from later revelations rather then former ones, and from the most indepth scriptures on a subject rather than an overview verse, and then missing pieces filled in from the lessor verses. Revelation is by far the most in depth look we have at the future. Yet some on this thread just IGNORE what John wrote and hold to a doctrine or theory that is flatly refuted in Revelation. We should form our doctrine FIRST from Revelation and they fill in missing pieces from the minor prophets. It seems you have done just the opposite.

However, if indeed God has showed you these things, they MUST fit with John's Revelation. However how do you know that prophecy was for 2015? Why not 2016 or 2020?

Read in Amplified:

20 And again the word of the Lord came to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month (Dec 18, 520 b.c.), saying, 21 “Speak to Zerubbabel governor of Judah, saying, ‘I am going to shake the heavens and the earth. 22 I will [in the distant future] overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the [ungodly] nations; and I will overthrow the chariots and those who ride in them, and the horses and their riders will go down, every one by the sword of his brother [annihilating one another]. 23 ‘On that day,’ declares the Lord of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, My servant,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will make you [through the Messiah, your descendant] like a signet ring, for I have chosen you [as the one with whom to renew My covenant to David’s line],’” declares the Lord of hosts.

This makes perfect sense in the sense it is written, that the word of the Lord to Haggai was for him to speak to Zerubbabel THEN, 520 BC and give him the message.

If there is a second meaning, for the future, God would have to tell me. I would REALLY like to know how God taught you this.

We have Psalm 83. We have Ezekiel 38 & 39. WE have an imminent war which will probably be started with someone bombing Iran's nuclear facilities. But who knows? It could be started with North Korea. In any case I think it is VERY SOON. Will it last right up to the battle of Armageddon? It could, but I doubt it. It might turn things so that Israel can build their temple.

That's where you're thrown off. Darius's name is Not in the timeline. Wherever the Kings name is Not in the timeline it's for the future. You'll notice wherever Darius's name is not in the timeline there's a mention of future events or unfulfilled prophecies.

This message was Not to the Zerubbabel of that age. We know this is future. By Darius's name not being in the timeline, the Lord has shown its for today. I know this is gone forth. For 12 years I've known about Zechariah 4. I could never figure out Haggai though. He just recently caused the "scales" to fall from my eyes.

iamlamad · Jan 14, 2016

Fusion77 said:
The vials will fulfill this. After the 7th trumpet comes the wrath of God in Revelation 11:18 in the interlinear it says Your wrath is come. Not that it has come. vials are the wrath of God. Just like the people of those days missed the sign of the coming of Jesus, I believe we're farther ahead, than anyone thinks. I've just, basically, today decided I think we're that far along.

I'm going to agree with the guy I listen to on the radio. It's called end of the age with Irvin Baxter. I think he's nailed it. I had reservations at first, but he's got events that he equates all the way to the 5th trumpet. Knowing a big war that shakes both the heavens and the earth looms on the horizon...I have to side with him.

You would side with a man that does not believe in the trinity? I find that hard to believe. He is obviously deceived there. WE are created as a Spirit, with a soul and living in a body...a triune being....and we are created in HIS IMAGE. How could anyone NOT believe God is triune? Worse yet, they (the denomination he is associated with) declares most emphatically that unless one is baptized according to their formula they are simply NOT SAVED. This fits perfectly the common definition for a c _ _ t. Frankly, he is simply wrong in much of what he says when it comes to Revelation.

iamlamad · Jan 14, 2016

Fusion77 said:
That's where you're thrown off. Darius's name is Not in the timeline. Wherever the Kings name is Not in the timeline it's for the future.

I never mentioned Darius. Show me what you are looking at. Ah! You are going by what is NOT written?

Fusion77 · Jan 14, 2016

iamlamad said:
I never mentioned Darius. Show me what you are looking at. Ah! You are going by what is NOT written?

Exactly. Darius's name is absent in some of the messages. Why? Why wherever his name isn't there are unfulfilled events, promises etc.

Fusion77 · Jan 14, 2016

iamlamad said:
You would side with a man that does not believe in the trinity? I find that hard to believe. He is obviously deceived there. WE are created as a Spirit, with a soul and living in a body...a triune being....and we are created in HIS IMAGE. How could anyone NOT believe God is triune? Worse yet, they (the denomination he is associated with) declares most emphatically that unless one is baptized according to their formula they are simply NOT SAVED. This fits perfectly the common definition for a c _ _ t. Frankly, he is simply wrong in much of what he says when it comes to Revelation.

I know, I agree he's mislead on that. I don't understand his position on that. I'm trying to equate this war to some event in revelation, and I don't know of any other but this 6th trumpet. After I heard some of veiws, I'll admit, I quit listening to him.

iamlamad · Jan 14, 2016

Fusion77 said:
according to Haggai 2:23 after the war God will Make Zerubbabel His "Signet" this is when the ministry of the witnesses begin. In Revelation 11:3 there is a gap between "And I will give authority to my 2 witnesses" 3.5- 10 or more years until "and they prophesy 1260 days clothed in sackcloth". The authority just means they will speak (witness) on behalf of Jesus with authority from God to a world that is shaken up from a major catastrophe...they'll be more receptive m. Revelation 11:6 says they will only have those powers during the time that they prophesy 1260 days, not for the entire time that they witness too. These powers of protection are defensive, to kill anyone. The Lords battle is not physical, it's just to protect them until they've completed their testimony. They only kill anyone who tries to harm them.

The ministry of the 2 witnesses begins after the war. They will witness until they're dispatched on the 8th day of the feast or tabernacles 20??. After that they'll prophesy clothed in sackcloth.

I can't figure out why you wrote what you wrote. John was VERY clear that they would testify for 1260 days and then be killed. Sorry, but everything between Rev 7:1 and Rev. 16 will fit into the 7 years. There is no time for anything else. The two prophets show up right at 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint. They show up because the man of sin shows up with his Gentile armies. (He HAS to arrive in Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem.) They begin their testimony immediately and testify for MOST of the last half of the week, then are killed. they lay dead until the 7th vial and they are raised up with ALL the Old Testament saints. These two witnesses will have MUCH power. John did not tell us if it is THEY who initiate some of the events that come, or God does. They can only be killed when they are finished with 1260 days of testifying. We can be sure the Beast will know when that is. Therefore I simply do not believe in your "gap." it is impossible.

Keep in mind, 1/3 of the planet's population will have just been killed! Would that be a large enough catastrophe?

Revelation 11:6 says they will only have those powers during the time that they prophesy 1260 days, not for the entire time that they witness too.

Sorry, but you cannot give them any more time for there WILL BE no more time. They have 1260 days plus the 3 1/2 they lay dead. Period. Anything more and you have left the scriptures and gone to imagining.

HOW do you know it will be the 8th day of the feast of Tabernacles? I don't think anyone knows if the 70th week begins on a feast and/or ends on a feast. Neither have I looked to see if there is a time between feasts in the future of 2520 days.

until they're dispatched on the 8th day of the feast or tabernacles 20??. After that they'll prophesy clothed in sackcloth

Sorry, but after they lay dead for 3 1/2 days, they are caught up to heaven. How then can you say they continue testifying? You are beginning to worry me!

iamlamad · Jan 14, 2016

Fusion77 said:
I know, I agree he's mislead on that. I don't understand his position on that. I'm trying to equate this war to some event in revelation, and I don't know of any other but this 6th trumpet. After I heard some of veiws, I'll admit, I quit listening to him.

A WISE thing to do! ;-)

iamlamad · Jan 14, 2016

Fusion77 said:
Exactly. Darius's name is absent in some of the messages. Why? Why wherever his name isn't there are unfulfilled events, promises etc.

You have a scripture for that, or is it just theory?

Fusion77 · Jan 14, 2016

iamlamad said:
I never mentioned Darius. Show me what you are looking at. Ah! You are going by what is NOT written?

Haggai 2:5, God never made an unconditional promise with the nation of Israel that His Spirit would abide in their midst. Idolatry, child sacrifice etc. Haggai 2:6 is the final shaking it hasn't occurred. This will happen after war...several years later. This is the one the writer of Hebrews was quoting. After this the things that can be shaken will be removed. Haggai 2:7-9 isn't talking about a physical temple. The second temple was hardly better than the first. This is referring to a heavenly temple.

Fusion77 · Jan 14, 2016

iamlamad said:
I can't figure out why you wrote what you wrote. John was VERY clear that they would testify for 1260 days and then be killed. Sorry, but everything between Rev 7:1 and Rev. 16 will fit into the 7 years. There is no time for anything else. The two prophets show up right at 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint. They show up because the man of sin shows up with his Gentile armies. (He HAS to arrive in Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem.) They begin their testimony immediately and testify for MOST of the last half of the week, then are killed. they lay dead until the 7th vial and they are raised up with ALL the Old Testament saints. These two witnesses will have MUCH power. John did not tell us if it is THEY who initiate some of the events that come, or God does. They can only be killed when they are finished with 1260 days of testifying. We can be sure the Beast will know when that is. Therefore I simply do not believe in your "gap." it is impossible.

Keep in mind, 1/3 of the planet's population will have just been killed! Would that be a large enough catastrophe?

Revelation 11:6 says they will only have those powers during the time that they prophesy 1260 days, not for the entire time that they witness too.

Sorry, but you cannot give them any more time for there WILL BE no more time. They have 1260 days plus the 3 1/2 they lay dead. Period. Anything more and you have left the scriptures and gone to imagining.

HOW do you know it will be the 8th day of the feast of Tabernacles? I don't think anyone knows if the 70th week begins on a feast and/or ends on a feast. Neither have I looked to see if there is a time between feasts in the future of 2520 days.

until they're dispatched on the 8th day of the feast or tabernacles 20??. After that they'll prophesy clothed in sackcloth

Sorry, but after they lay dead for 3 1/2 days, they are caught up to heaven. How then can you say they continue testifying? You are beginning to worry me!

After the war they witness, with authority from God. Haggai 2:23. They'll just be witnesses (who knows how long?), until the final 1260 days of their ministry. Then they'll prophesy clothed in sackcloth. 1260 days die 3.5 days in the street and be caught up.

iamlamad · Jan 14, 2016

Fusion77 said:
Haggai 2:5, God never made an unconditional promise with the nation of Israel that His Spirit would abide in their midst. Idolatry, child sacrifice etc. Haggai 2:6 is the final shaking it hasn't occurred. This will happen after war...several years later. This is the one the writer of Hebrews was quoting. After this the things that can be shaken will be removed. Haggai 2:7-9 isn't talking about a physical temple. The second temple was hardly better than the first. This is referring to a heavenly temple.

No, I think it is referring to the Millennial temple which will be Ezekiel's temple where Jesus will be.

Fusion77 · Jan 14, 2016

iamlamad said:
No, I think it is referring to the Millennial temple which will be Ezekiel's temple where Jesus will be.

It's not talking about the second temple. We know that. Therefore it's a future message, that will come later. After the war.

This message will come on the 21st day of the seventh month which is the 8th day of the feast of tabernacles.Haggai 2:1

The promise in Haggai 2:5 is from either Zechariah 4:6 or the covenant He's made with us when we accept Christ. The Spirit lives within us.

iamlamad · Jan 14, 2016

Fusion77 said:
After the war they witness, with authority from God. Haggai 2:23. They'll just be witnesses (who knows how long?), until the final 1260 days of their ministry. Then they'll prophesy clothed in sackcloth. 1260 days die 3.5 days in the street and be caught up.

Why don't we just believe what is written?

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

I frequently write of John massive use of the Greek Aorist tense verbs. Perhaps 90% of John's verbs are Aorist. But here, speaking of the two witnesses, he uses future tense verbs. I believe the Holy Spirit had him use future tense verbs to show conclusively that their time of testifying will be in the SECOND half, not the first.

So what does John tell us? They suddenly SHOW UP, John saw them, and started to write of them. If you will notice, we could cut this portion (of the two witnesses) out and paste it in almost anywhere because of the way it is written, as a parentheses. But John put it right here, because they show up right here because the man of sin just showed up. They come right on time. Now read it closely and don't add anything: they testify (speaking words) for 1260 days. Then they die. After they die, then cannot testify or speak words any longer. So their time conclusive will be 1260 days plus 3 1/2 days total. If you add more, you will be adding to John;s book: not wise.

If what you think you know from Haggai and Zech. does not fit, they I would throw it into file 13, for it is wrong. They come from heaven and suddenly SHOW UP in Jerusalem. They have 1260 days of being alive on earth to testify, and 3 1/2 days to witness as they lay dead and then rise up. The very fact that they rise up should show all in the world that they were indeed from GOD.

Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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