Petros... Petra

visionary

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Yeshua speaking to Peter "You are Petros and on this petra I will build my synagogue." Obviously these are two different words.

1.) Some have declared that they are the same or have the same meaning. But do they?

2.) The second aspect is these are Greek words. Did Yeshua really give Peter a Greek term as his new name?

3.) If it was the same word why didn't Yeshua say "You are Petros and upon this Petros I build my synagogue"?

For those who are wondering, Greek masculine is "petros" and the Greek feminine is "petra".
 

football5680

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1. Yes. In first century Koine Greek (which the New Testament was written in) the words were synonyms.

2. Probably not. He probably said it in Aramaic and he would have used the word "Cephas" twice.

He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John. You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter). (John 1:42)

Saint Paul also called him Cephas numerous times so I think this is the word Jesus would have used and in this case you don't have to worry about the word being masculine or feminine.

3. Like I said, Jesus probably didn't say this in Greek. It was most likely written this way because "Petra" was the most common usage when referring to a rock but you could not use this in the beginning because Saint Peter is male. It could have also been written this way to illustrate the wordplay within the sentence because the first usage was a name and the second was a symbolic reference to a rock.
 
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pinacled

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I find the masculine-feminine aspects interesting and will have to come back to this. Language is an area of study that is new to me.
Though I will add something that struck me.
The change of name in relation to revelation.

Message to the Church in Pergamum
16'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. 17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'

Exodus 16:33
And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omerful of manna therein, and lay it up before YHVH, to be kept throughout your generations.

And Simon/Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him,

Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
 
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visionary

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Sabbath is female. Is this a play on words.. and the female useage refers not to Peter but the truth. I am going out on a limb here and relate this little tidbit from

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/sjc.html
The Sophia of Jesus Christ

Each one has its (own) name; for the <third> aeon was designated 'Assembly' from the great multitude that appeared: in one, a multitude revealed themselves. Now because the multitudes gather and come to a unity we call them 'Assembly of the Eighth.'It appeared as androgynous and was name partly as male and partly as female. The male is called 'Assembly', while the female is called 'Life', that it might be shown that from a female came the life for all the aeons. And every name was received, starting from the beginning.
There might be better information sources on the female side of the gospel that Yeshua might be referring to.
 
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Dave-W

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1. Yes. In first century Koine Greek (which the New Testament was written in) the words were synonyms.
Not really.

Petros was a stone, a rock you could pick up in your hand. Petra was bedrock, same substance but many orders of magnitude larger.

It is my understanding that there was a similar pair of words in Aramaic - Kefa being equated with Petros. I have heard the other word for bedrock but do not remember it beyond it sounding close to Kefa.
 
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Dave-W

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Is this a play on words.. and the female useage refers not to Peter but the truth.
"Masculine" and "feminine" in Hebrew and Aramaic have no connection to "male" and "female." I do not think it has that much of a connection in Greek either.
 
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football5680

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Not really.

Petros was a stone, a rock you could pick up in your hand. Petra was bedrock, same substance but many orders of magnitude larger.

It is my understanding that there was a similar pair of words in Aramaic - Kefa being equated with Petros. I have heard the other word for bedrock but do not remember it beyond it sounding close to Kefa.
Like I said in my post, this distinction did not exist in Koine Greek and this was the Greek being used in the New Testament. We know the exact word Jesus used in Aramaic because of John 1:42.

He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John. You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter). (John 1:42)

Jesus would have used the same word twice while speaking in Aramaic and the only difference would be that the first time it is used, the word would be capitalized because it is being used as a name and the second usage wouldn't be capitalized because it is referring to an object.

"Cephas" is equivalent to the Greek word "Petra" but this could not be used when referring to Saint Peter because it is feminine. This is why Saint Matthew had to use the word "Petros" even though "Petra" was more commonly used.

The way that "Petra" is used in the New Testament shows that it isn't referring to some giant rock, it simply means rock. I have already explained how the Aramaic backs this up but the Hebrew backs this up as well. 1 Peter 2:8 uses the word "Petra" while it is quoting the Old Testament and in Hebrew the word that is being translated into Greek simply means rock.
 
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Dave-W

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You argue with Greek scholar Derek Prince? He pointed out the difference between petra and petros. The gender of the words is unrelated to physical gender.

And the word is "kefa," NOT "cephas." The latter is a partial greek transliteration (with a suffix indicating masculine singular).
 
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football5680

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You argue with Greek scholar Derek Prince? He pointed out the difference between petra and petros.
Does he specifically mention Koine Greek? The words did have different meanings but this was in a separate dialect of Greek. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek and in this dialect, they were synonyms.

The gender of the words is unrelated to physical gender.
If you were simply talking about a rock then it wouldn't matter, but Petros is being used as a name for somebody so their gender would matter. Using the word "Petra" for Saint Peter would be equivalent to calling a male named "Chris", "Christina." Both of these names mean "follower of Christ" but you would expect somebody with the name "Christina" to be female.
 
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visionary

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"4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074/Pétros ("small stone") then stands in contrast to
"4073/pétra ("cliff, boulder," Abbott-Smith).

"4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock
"4073 (pétra) is a cliff" (TDNT, 3, 100).

"4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . .
"4073 (pétra), a projecting rock,cliff" (S. Zodhiates, Dict).
 
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Dave-W

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Does he specifically mention Koine Greek? The words did have different meanings but this was in a separate dialect of Greek. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek and in this dialect, they were synonyms.
He was fluent in all dialects of ancient greek as he taught the Greek philosophers at the graduate level (in Greek) at Cambridge. So when he started teaching the bible, yes, he understood koine greek.
 
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football5680

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He was fluent in all dialects of ancient greek as he taught the Greek philosophers at the graduate level (in Greek) at Cambridge. So when he started teaching the bible, yes, he understood koine greek.
Here is an excerpt which pretty much sums up what I have been saying.

"There are other Protestant scholars who also partially defend the historical Catholic position about "Rock." Taking a somewhat different approach from Cullman, they point out that the Gospel of Matthew was not written in the classical Attic form of Greek, but in the Hellenistic Koine dialect in which there is no distinction in meaning between petros and petra. Moreover, even in Attic Greek, in which the regular meaning of petros was a smallish "stone," there are instances of its use to refer to larger rocks, as in Sophocles, Oedipus at Colonus v. 1595, where petros refers to a boulder used as a landmark, obviously something more than a pebble. In any case, a petros/petra distinction is irrelevant considering the Aramaic language in which the phrase might well have been spoken. In Greek, of any period, the feminine noun petra could not be used as the given name of a male, which may explain the use of Petros as the Greek word with which to translate Aramaic Kepha."

These scholars are objective because they are not going to go out of their way to prove what Catholics have been saying for 2000 years. They admit what I have been saying and the fact that there was is no distinction between these words in Koine Greek. They can admit this but simply interpret it in a different way.
 
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Lulav

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Interesting that Yeshua said, Your name is Simon, but you shall be called Cephas.

But what must be taken into consideration is that the discussion is on titles, not names. So really he always remained Cephas or Kefa. Take a look



13 When Yeshua came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that I, the Son of man, am?

14
And they said, Some say that you are

John the Baptist:
some, Elias;
and others, Jeremias,
or one of the prophets.

15
He said unto them, But who say you that I am?

16
And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.

17
And Yeshua answered and said unto him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father which is in heaven.

18
And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20
Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Yeshua the Messiah.


So I don't see it as a name change, but rather a title given him just like the title of Yeshua was Messiah.
 
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Lulav

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Also in John we read

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Yeshua isn't calling him Simon Peter or Peter, but Shimon benJonah, and this was after the resurrection. It is the writer calling him that which probably helped propagate the confusion.

And in Luke 6 we read

1 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; 14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, 15Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, 16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

That bolded seems to be an interpolation.
 
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