Logical Problems with Calvinism

Jason0047 said:

You do not understand. There is no conflict in what I believe on 1 John 1:8. I said that 1 John 1:8 is a warning to those who proclaim that either sin does not exist for them whatosever or that the punishment of sin is non-existent for them. This is evident if you were to read the New English Translation or the Expanded Bible. Anyways, my view on 1 John 1:8 makes sense because it is the same thing that 1 John 2:4 says but in different words. It says if we say we keep his commandments and have fellowship with him, we lie and do not the truth. The Bible says sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). So when 1 John 2:4 says that if one says they do not keep his commandments (i.e. Laws), it is essentially saying that they are sinning and declaring that they know him. But we also know the 1 John 2:4 also says that if they are to do this, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (Which is the same end result in 1 John 1:8).
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Let me be as clear as I can be. Those who preach sinless perfection (like you do) are who John was referring to in 1 Jn 1:8.

It doesn't matter if the Bible does not specifically command us to speak in parables. The Bible DOES say we are to be imitators of Christ; And we DO KNOW that Christ spoke in parables. So it is a logical conclusion that if one were to imitate Christ in the good things He did, then telling parables would be a part of that.


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FreeGrace2 said:

I thought you were referring to the woman at the well. But whatever, what does this prove?

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It proves that she was able to expound upon Jesus's real world example with an example of her own.
The Lord found the use of her example acceptable.
Which means we can do the same thing.


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FreeGrace2 said:

Let me be as clear as I can be. Those who preach sinless perfection (like you do) are who John was referring to in 1 Jn 1:8.

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Did you read my post and look up 1 John 3:4?

Well, just in case you didn't.

1 John 3:4 says this,
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Okay, from 1 John 3:4 we learn that ..... "Sin is transgression of he Law."

What is another way of saying "Sin is trangression of the Law"?

Could I maybe say... "He that does not keep his commandments (i.e. His laws) is sinning."?

Are not Commandments the same thing as saying Laws?

Do you not know that 1 John 2:4 says..... "he that breaks his commandments"?

Is that not another way of saying.... "Sin"?

Does that not sound very familar to 1 John 1:8 says?

In other words, 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:4 are essentially saying the same thing.

This is important to understand because 1 John 2:4 says a person is a liar if they say they know Him and they are not keeping His commandments (i.e. if they are sinning). For Scripture says elsewhere that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).


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About 1 John 5:16-17, most assuredly it can not be spiritual death for a believer in Christ has eternal life. If by 'brother' it is understood they are a believer.

Here is J Vernon McGee on how this death is physical, not spiritual for a believer.
Brings up a list, but you want to hear 16, and 17 if interested in what is said.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/mcgee_j_vernon/1Jo/1_John.cfm#1_John_5_16

He explores the example of Moses and Aaron sinning the sin unto physical death, not spiritual death. And how Moses pleads with God to be permitted to take Israel into the promised land, but God had decreed a judgement as it was a sin unto death and so could not be prayed for as John says. Deuteronomy 3:23-27
"There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that."

Moses was told to strike the rock but one time, the rock signified the Christ, and Moses sins afterwards when he struck the rock twice in Numbers 20. Christ was only struck once as a sacrifice, not ever again.

Exodus 17:6
Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.” And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Numbers 20:8
“Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.”

And also how people died when eating the communion in a disrespectful manner was physical, they were sickly and some died.
1 Corinthians 11
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

v32 also teaches us this is not a sin unto spiritual death, but is a judgement in the believer's life. Since if we do not judge ourselves and correct our behavior, God will not let us escape His correction so we are chastened.

sdowney717 said:

About 1 John 5:16-17, most assuredly it can not be spiritual death for a believer in Christ has eternal life. If by 'brother' it is understood they are a believer.

Here is J Vernon McGee on how this death is physical, not spiritual for a believer.
Brings up a list, but you want to hear 16, and 17 if interested in what is said.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/mcgee_j_vernon/1Jo/1_John.cfm#1_John_5_16

He explores the example of Moses and Aaron sinning the sin unto physical death, not spiritual death. And how Moses pleads with God to be permitted to take Israel into the promised land, but God had decreed a judgement as it was a sin unto death and so could not be prayed for as John says. Deuteronomy 3:23-27
"There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that."

Moses was told to strike the rock but one time, the rock signified the Christ, and Moses sins afterwards when he struck the rock twice in Numbers 20. Christ was only struck once as a sacrifice, not ever again.

Exodus 17:6
Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.” And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Numbers 20:8
“Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.”

And also how people died when eating the communion in a disrespectful manner was physical, they were sickly and some died.
1 Corinthians 11
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

v32 also teaches us this is not a sin unto spiritual death, but is a judgement in the believer's life.

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The Context of 1st John Chapter 5 Verse 16
(From Within the Epistle Itself):

What does John mean by “death?”

It is unlikely John means the physical death common to all humankind, whether righteous or unrighteous. With the exception of the final generation when Jesus returns, all humans will inevitably die. In the only other occurrence of "death" in the epistle (1 John 3:14) John claims true believers have already "passed over out of (ek) death into (eis) life." Those who do not love the brethren are already "abiding in death" (note the Greek present tense – an ongoing state of abiding “in death”). In the Greek clause both “life” and “death” have the definite article; that is, “the life” and “the death.” John is referring to two different spheres or realms: one of life and one of death.

Elsewhere in 1 John we read that those who love the saints “abide in the light” (1 John 2:10), are “born of God (1 John 4:7) and God abides in them (1 John 4:12). In comparison those who hate their brothers and sisters “are in darkness until now” (1 John 2:9), “walk in the darkness” (1 John 2:11) and “do not know God” (1 John 4:8). John is contrasting two different spheres, one characterized by light and life, the other by darkness and death. What determines in which realm one lives is one’s relationship to God and the community of faith. 1 John 3:14 is parallel to John 5:24 ("he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed over out of the death into the life”) where the exact same terminology is found.

John uses terms like “life,” “death,” “light” and “darkness” metaphorically to contrast two different manners of living; two different kinds of character. Those who love God and His children already live in light and life. Those who do not even now dwell in the realms of darkness and death. Nothing is said of whether one can change the “realm” in which one lives.

What does John mean by “ask for life” in 1 John 5:16?

In 1 John “everlasting life” is what God has promised to true believers (1 John 2:25). Who are these true believers? Those who love God and the brethren have already passed over from the realm of death to that of life (1 John 3:14). God has given those who love Him life that is found only in His Son (1 John 5:11) and those who believe in the name of the Son already have “everlasting life” (1 John 5:13). Indeed, God sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might have life even now (1 John 4:9). When John speaks of life he does not mean the mortal existence all humans have between birth and death, but the “everlasting life” from God that is found only in the Son, a life we can possess and experience in some sense now, though its fullness awaits the Age to Come.

In comparison the one who hates his brother does not have eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15) and the one who does not have the Son already lacks life (1 John 5:12). Though one continues to exist, one does not in any sense possess the everlasting life of the Age to Come. Those who have the Son and love the brethren already have “life” (1 John 2:25)(1 John 3:14) (1 John 5:11-13).

John’s epistle begins with the thematic statement about the “Word of life” (1 John 1:1-3), the life of the Father manifested in the historical person of Jesus Christ and now proclaimed as the message of “everlasting life.” In this epistle the term “life” is a way to sum up what God has done for believers including “being in the light” (1 John 1:5), the forgiveness of sins (1 John 1:9-2:2) (1 John 4:10), the granting of everlasting life (1 John 1:2) (1 John 2:25) (1 John 3:14) (1 John 5:11-13) (1 John 5:20), fellowship with one another (1 John 1:7), an anointing (1 John 2:20), love from the Father (1 John 3:1), the status of “children of God” (1 John 3:1-2) (1 John 3:10) (1 John 5:2), the hope of becoming like Him (1 John 3:2-3), the gift of the Spirit (1 John 3:24) (1 John 4:13), being “born of God” (1 John 5:1), and our victory over the world (1 John 5:4-5). John summarizes his message with the statement, “and this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”. Compare 1 John 5:11 with 1 John 5:20.

Historical & Literary Context:

John was writing to a congregation (or possibly several small ones) experiencing turmoil caused by doctrinal disputes with former members (hereafter referred to as ‘secessionists’), individuals who had left the church and were teaching heretical doctrines (1 John 2:18-28) (1 John 4:1-6) (1 John 5:6-7). This problem went beyond discouraged or disgruntled individuals who had simply left the church. Some of them were attempting to propagate their false teachings to those still in the assembly (1 John 2:26) (1 John 4:1-3) (2 John 1:7), raising the possibility that some members of John’s congregations would be deceived and also leave the assembly.

In his opening section John lays out the main claims of the secessionists. They claimed to have “fellowship with Jesus” and to walk with Him (1 John 1:6), “to have no sin” (1 John 1:8), and that they “have not sinned” (1 John 1:10). In the same passage John provides some of the details of the controversies in play. To their claim of “fellowship with Jesus” John responds that those walking with Him “love one another” and Jesus' blood “is cleansing us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). By implication the secessionists were failing to love the brethren. As to having no sin, John points out the necessity of confessing sin and thereby receiving forgiveness (1 John 1:9). And as to the assertion they “have not sinned,” John cites this as evidence that His word is not in them (1 John 1:10).

The secessionists boasted that they have come “to know Him” (1 John 2:4). John refutes this with the charge they are “not keeping His commandments,” the logic being that if you know Him you will keep his commandments. They boasted that they are “abiding in him (1 John 2:6). If so, John retorts, they should be “walking in the same manner” as did Jesus. The secessionists emphasized that they are “in the light” yet, as John points out, they hate their brothers and sisters (1 John 2:9). When John speaks of “commandments” he is not thinking of the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Law, but of God’s commands to love Him, believe in His Son and to love one another. In other words, the community of faith (1 John 3:23) (1 John 4:21) (1 John 5:2-3). Likewise “walking in the manner Jesus walked” refers above all to following his example of self-sacrificial love for one’s brothers and sisters (1 John 3:16).

Source:
Gospeltoallnations.org
(Please take note that this link is no longer active; But it was active at one time).

The Meaning of 1st John Chapter 5 Verse 16
(A Quick Overview Using Various Scripture Verses):

1 John 5:16 is clearly talking about how the Christian needs to pray for another believer sins in regards to His spiritual condition. These sins can either be transgressions that do not lead unto spiritual death and or they can be sins that do in fact lead unto spiritual death (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

#1. The Believer's Sin that does NOT lead unto Death are:

• (a) Sins that are truly confessed to God and cleansed (1 John 1:9)

• (b) Hidden faults or "non second death sins" done out of ignorance (Psalms 19:12), which is part of falling short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

If a believer sees another believer commit a sin that they know they are confessing (i.e. a sin that does not lead unto death), they are to pray for life (i.e. everlasting life) to continue to flow within their life. This is the hope that they continue to abide in the Lord and His righteousness.

#2. The Believer's and Unbelievers's Sin that leads unto Death are:

• (a) Unconfessed or unrepented sins that lead unto the second death (Revelation 21:8).
  ~ Such unrepentant or unconfessed sins would include murder, hate, lusting, drunkenness, unbelief, lying, robbery, idolatry, adultery, and coveting, etc (Revelation 21:8) (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) (Romans 1:28-32).

If a believer sees another believer not confessing their sins and (i.e. a sin unto death) and they are refusing to confess or repent of it, they are admonished not to neglect to pray for them, as well.

1 John 5:16 NLT - "If you see a Christian brother or sister sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it."


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Jason0047 said:

The Meaning of 1st John Chapter 5 Verse 16
(A Quick Overview Using Various Scripture Verses):

1 John 5:16 is clearly talking about how the Christian needs to pray for another believer sins in regards to His spiritual condition. These sins can either be transgressions that do not lead unto spiritual death and or they can be sins that do in fact lead unto spiritual death (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

#1. The Believer's Sin that does NOT lead unto Death are:

• (a) Sins that are truly confessed to God and cleansed (1 John 1:9)

• (b) Hidden faults or "non second death sins" done out of ignorance (Psalms 19:12), which is part of falling short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

If a believer sees another believer commit a sin that they know they are confessing (i.e. a sin that does not lead unto death), they are to pray for life (i.e. everlasting life) to continue to flow within their life. This is the hope that they continue to abide in the Lord and His righteousness.

#2. The Believer's and Unbelievers's Sin that leads unto Death are:

• (a) Unconfessed or unrepented sins that lead unto the second death (Revelation 21:8).
  ~ Such unrepentant or unconfessed sins would include murder, hate, lusting, drunkenness, unbelief, lying, robbery, idolatry, adultery, and coveting, etc (Revelation 21:8) (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) (Romans 1:28-32).

If a believer sees another believer not confessing their sins and (i.e. a sin unto death) and they are refusing to confess or repent of it, they are admonished not to neglect to pray for them, as well.

1 John 5:16 NLT - "If you see a Christian brother or sister sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it."


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Jason, you're completely inconsistent with the sound words of Christ regarding believers having eternal life and they will never perish.
They will however be judged as 1 Cor 11 says so that they will NOT be condemned along with the world.

30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

These folk here sinned a sin only unto physical death.
All believers have eternal spiritual life and will not come under judgement of hell but have passed from death to life.

Jason0047 said:

No. You are not getting it. You are reading the Bible and making an interpretation upon it. This is not like the parables that Jesus Christ had told. The parables or real world examples that Jesus told are every day real life stories that EVERYONE can relate to. For example: In the Parable of the Pearl of Great Price, we learn that a man discovers a pearl of great price, he then hides it and sells all that he has to buy that field. The truth revealed here is that Jesus Christ (and the rewards in knowing Him) is that pearl of great price. For Christ's disciples who had forsaken all they had will be rewarded greatly (See Matthew 19:27-29)...

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And your recounting and commentary of what Jesus said in His parable of the pearl is different from the highlighted statement about what I do above - how???

Jason0047 said:

In other words, it is a generic story from the real world that is both true in the physical world and in the spiritual world without having to know any exact names, dates, places, etc. It is a universal truth that the common man can accept in the real world. ....

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No kidding? So I understood it and you instructed me anyway?

By the way - how was my rendition illustrating your view of things? (Not that it would surprise me much if you didn't believe in a literal Hell.)

Jason0047 said:

Oh, and on another matter: Please stop telling me to "repent." There is abolutely zero chance that such a thing will ever happen. I do not believe your belief is Biblical in any way shape or form. I see your belief as the opposite extreme of what I believe in the fact that it goes against the Bible and real life. .

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I will likely never cease to call for your repentance so long as you preach your false gospel here in the forum.

Jason0047 said:

I see your belief as the opposite extreme of what I believe in the fact that it goes against the Bible and real life. .....

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Really? My belief is the opposite of yours?

That really doesn't surprise me one bit since I believe that your doctrine is the direct opposite of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and mine is spot on.

Jason0047 said:

In fact, I consider your belief to be exceptionally wrong for two reasons. One, you believe in a form of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) that makes an allowance for sin (on a small level) by the fact that you hold to the idea that a believer will sin on occasion the rest of their life (with them confessing that sin). I see this an excuse for a person to sin the rest of their life when the Scriptures teach us that we can partake of the Sanctification process and overcome sin in this life by God's power instead. In other words, the Bible teaches we can stop sinning, but yet you are teaching that we cannot stop sinning.

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I do believe in what your call OSAS.

To my memory - I have never commented here on how I feel about the possibility that we can overcome in this lifetime. It will probably surprise you since you've been wearing your judgmental glasses since we first met) that it is not your teaching that men can eventually stop consciously sinning in this life that bothers me. In fact - within a certain limited definition of perfection - I may even agree with you.

Again - with the false charges against those who disagree with you here. No one here "makes allowance" for sin. No sin will go unaddressed by our righteous God. No one here believes otherwise. Stop insinuating that they do.

Jason0047 said:

Two, you believe in Calvinism that paints God in a bad light by Him foreordaining evil and sin. I believe God is good and that there is no darkness in Him. God does not plan for evil to take place as if that was the only choice available for his creation. Yes, God knew what was going to happen, but man had free will to choose otherwise. Man is responsible for all the evil and sin you see in this world (Not God). ..

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I am not a Calvinist as you would know if you simply paid attention rather than spending your time judging me.

But I do believe that everything that happens in God's creation was and is predestined to happen from what we call the "beginning". That must be the inescapable conclusion of anyone who knows and subscribes to the truth of the scriptures regarding the absolutely omniscient and omnipresent nature of God and His providential control over all that happens in His creation.

The predestination of all things that happen in creation and the freedom to choose right or wrong by God's created beings are completely compatible one with the other.

I have always taught that. It is only others who have told me (wrongly) that this cannot be. That assumption is based on faulty logic.

Also, it seems kind of odd that John would not mention any kind of reference to a physical death in his entire epistle involving a believer if he were to mention it in 1 John 5. Furthermore, Jesus said, if we do not forgive, then we will not be forgiven. Can an unbeliever forgive others and be forgiven and yet reject Jesus? No. In addition, Jesus said to that if any man were to look upon a woman in lust, then they are committing adultery in their heart with her and they would then be placing in danger of having their entire bodies cast into hell fire (as a result). Did Jesus ever say that a believer is exempt from all of this? No. Jesus was talking to the believer and not the unbeliever. For unbelievers do not hear God's Word.


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Jason0047 said:

It doesn't matter if the Bible does not specifically command us to speak in parables. The Bible DOES say we are to be imitators of Christ; And we DO KNOW that Christ spoke in parables. So it is a logical conclusion that if one were to imitate Christ in the good things He did, then telling parables would be a part of that.
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This is your conclusion. Jesus wore sandals, that doesn't mean I have to wear them.

Marvin Knox said:

And your recounting and commentary of what Jesus said in His parable of the pearl is different from the highlighted statement about what I do above - how???

No kidding? So I understood it and you instructed me anyway?

By the way - how was my rendition illustrating your view of things? (Not that it would surprise me much if you didn't believe in a literal Hell.)

I will likely never cease to call for your repentance so long as you preach your false gospel here in the forum.

Really? My belief is the opposite of yours?

That really doesn't surprise me one bit since I believe that your doctrine is the direct opposite of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and mine is spot on.

I do believe in what your call OSAS.

To my memory - I have never commented here on how I feel about the possibility that we can overcome in this lifetime. It will probably surprise you since you've been wearing your judgmental glasses since we first met) that it is not your teaching that men can eventually stop consciously sinning in this life that bothers me. In fact - within a certain limited definition of perfection - I may even agree with you.

Again - with the false charges against those who disagree with you here. No one here "makes allowance" for sin. No sin will go unaddressed by our righteous God. No one here believes otherwise. Stop insinuating that they do.

I am not a Calvinist as you would know if you simply paid attention rather than spending your time judging me.

But I do believe that everything that happens in God's creation was and is predestined to happen from what we call the "beginning". That must be the inescapable conclusion of anyone who knows and subscribes to the truth of the scriptures regarding the absolutely omniscient and omnipresent nature of God and His providential control over all that happens in His creation.

The predestination of all things that happen in creation and the freedom to choose right or wrong by God's created beings are completely compatible one with the other.

I have always taught that. It is only others who have told me (wrongly) that this cannot be. That assumption is based on faulty logic.

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Usually OSAS is tied to Calvinism. OSAS is just another way of saying, "sin and still be saved" because once a person is saved, there is nothing they can do to become unsaved. But in any event, you yourself have implied in your parable that the child was saved even if he did not confess or repent of such a sin. Is that what you were saying? Anyways, saying the child can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved tends to lean towards OSAS. If not, then please explain.

As for the parable: You must have missed it but I did make note of how you created one after I seen it in the morning. So I updated my post before you even made this reply (Which means you should have seen the update). But it is understandable that you missed it. For I do not catch everything that you say because I honestly find it hard to read your posts sometimes. Not because they are written with any grammar errors or anything but because I find them to be a little hostile. In other words, if you want to communicate with me more effectively, it would be better if you leave out the personal smart remarks (that makes it sound like you are hostile towards me) and just stick with discussing the Scriptures. I would appreciate that. Thank you. And may God bless you.

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GillDouglas said:

This is your conclusion. Jesus wore sandals, that doesn't mean I have to wear them.

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Obviously when the Scriptures say be ye imitators of our Lord, it is clearly talking in a spiritual sense or in how one behaves and not fashion.

Speaking in parables is something that our Lord did for a good reason. For the Lord does not do things without a reason or with no purpose. Everything the Lord our did (that relates to the spirit and right behavior) had great meaning and purpose behind it. Jesus said, his words are spirit and they are life. So there is life in the words of his parables. The Canaanite woman who expounded upon Jesus's words with her own example shows that we can do the same.


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Jason0047 said:

It doesn't matter if the Bible does not specifically command us to speak in parables. The Bible DOES say we are to be imitators of Christ; And we DO KNOW that Christ spoke in parables. So it is a logical conclusion that if one were to imitate Christ in the good things He did, then telling parables would be a part of that. .....

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The issue is what the parables were for, which I've shown from Scripture. So your point is not taken.

Jason0047 said:

It proves that she was able to expound upon Jesus's real world example with an example of her own.
The Lord found the use of her example acceptable.
Which means we can do the same thing.....

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Real world examples from Scripture ALWAYS trump (and I don't mean Donald) parables.

Jason0047 said:

Usually OSAS is tied to Calvinism. OSAS is just another way of saying, "sin and still be saved" because once a person is saved, there is nothing they can do to become unsaved. But in any event, you yourself have implied in your parable that the child was saved even if he did not confess or repent of such a sin. Is that what you were saying? Anyways, saying the child can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved tends to lean towards OSAS. If not, then please explain.

As for the parable: You must have missed it but I did make note of how you created one after I seen it in the morning. So I updated my post before you even made this reply (Which means you should have seen the update). But it is understandable that you missed it. For I do not catch everything that you say because I honestly find it hard to read your posts sometimes. Not because they are written with any grammar errors or anything but because I find them to be a little hostile. In other words, if you want to communicate with me more effectively, it would be better if you leave out the personal smart remarks (that makes it sound like you are hostile towards me) and just stick with discussing the Scriptures. I would appreciate that. Thank you. And may God bless you.

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A Calvinist is an individual who would subscribe to all five points - (T)otal Depravity, (U)nconditional Election, (L)imited Attonement, (I)rresistible Grace, and (P)reservation of the Saints. Basically they boil down to; man lacks the capacity save himself (Original Sin assumed), God has chosen that some will be saved (All things predestined), the conditioned man (regenerated) cannot resist Him and He will not lose any of those He chose. If anyone does not subscribe to any one of the five points, they would not consider themselves a Calvinist. In Marvin's case, I believe, he could consider himself a four point Calvinist.

FreeGrace2 said:

Real world examples from Scripture ALWAYS trump (and I don't mean Donald) parables.

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You mean they trump the parables in Scripture or those made by others? If you are talking about parables made by others, then Jesus should not have accepted the Canaanite woman's example or parable back about how the dogs can eat the crumbs from the Master's table.


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Jason0047 said:

Did you read my post and look up 1 John 3:4?

Well, just in case you didn't.

1 John 3:4 says this,
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Okay, from 1 John 3:4 we learn that ..... "Sin is transgression of he Law."

What is another way of saying "Sin is trangression of the Law"?

Could I maybe say... "He that does not keep his commandments (i.e. His laws) is sinning."?

Are not Commandments the same thing as saying Laws?

Do you not know that 1 John 2:4 says..... "he that breaks his commandments"?

Is that not another way of saying.... "Sin"?

Does that not sound very familar to 1 John 1:8 says?

In other words, 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:4 are essentially saying the same thing.

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No, they are not. But you are entitled to your own opinion.

This is important to understand because 1 John 2:4 says a person is a liar if they say they know Him and they are not keeping His commandments (i.e. if they are sinning).

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Do you know Him when you sin?

For Scripture says elsewhere that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).
Everything must be taken in context AND agree with every other part of Scripture. If one takes this verse alone and applies it literally, then Scripture contradicts itself because of all the other passages that tell us how to avoid the lake of fire, and NONE of them say anything about stop lying. It's all about belief in Jesus Christ. Not about stop lying.

And I've repeatedly shown that eternal life, a gift of God, along with justification, are gifts of God that are irrevocable. This is irrefutable.

And that all believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE, a GUARANTEE to God's own possession, for the day of redemption. This is irrefutable.

So all you can do is reject the truth. Truth cannot be refuted.

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GillDouglas said:

A Calvinist is an individual who would subscribe to all five points - (T)otal Depravity, (U)nconditional Election, (L)imited Attonement, (I)rresistible Grace, and (P)reservation of the Saints. Basically they boil down to; man lacks the capacity save himself (Original Sin assumed), God has chosen that some will be saved (All things predestined), the conditioned man (regenerated) cannot resist Him and He will not lose any of those He chose. If anyone does not subscribe to any one of the five points, they would not consider themselves a Calvinist. In Marvin's case, I believe, he could consider himself a four point Calvinist.

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Thank you for letting me know. Granted, I do not believe in Calvinism and I never will for many reasons.


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Jason0047 said:

Did Jesus ever say that a believer is exempt from all of this? ....

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OK, let's examine what Jesus did say about believers:

Jn 10:28,29
28 and I give eternal life to them,and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Could you point out the actual words that indicate that believers can lose eternal life? Please?