Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Douggg · Jan 13, 2016

n2thelight said:
You are confused will just leave you with

How can satan get kicked out after the two witnesses are killed,when it's him that kills them?

Satan is not the one who kills the two witnesses. The person who becomes the beast is who kills the two witnesses.

Satan (the dragon), the beast, and the false prophet are three separate individuals.

n2thelight · Jan 13, 2016

Matthew 13:24-30 ...'Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; [NO] lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.'

Matthew 13:38-40 ...'The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.'

If the harvest is the end of the world,which scripture clearly shows,how do you'll(rapturist)get harvested before?

n2thelight · Jan 13, 2016

Douggg said:
Satan is not the one who kills the two witnesses. The person who becomes the beast is who kills the two witnesses.

Satan (the dragon), the beast, and the false prophet are three separate individuals.

All the same person,you need to figure out how many names satan goes by

Bible2+ · Jan 13, 2016

Psalm3704 said in post 5922:

The Holy Ones who return with Jesus are NOT angels.

Regarding returning "with Jesus", note that his coming FOR the church and WITH the church will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before he descends to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

Psalm3704 said in post 5922:

Jesus’ ministry in His first coming opened a time of God’s GRACE through the Church.

Do you mean that this time will end before the tribulation? If so, regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

Psalm3704 said in post 5922:

The Great Multitude of Revelation 7:9-10 are NOT the Church.

Actually, they are, as many pre-tribbers will admit. But Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) require a pre-tribulation rapture into heaven. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Psalm3704 said in post 5922:

Martyrdom of saints-- Matthew 24:9-14 and Revelation 6:9-11.

Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

Psalm3704 said in post 5922:

The “Abomination of Desolation” in Matthew 24:15-20 parallels Daniel 9:27 and Revelation 12:6 and verses Revelation 12:13-17.

Note that the woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, and be imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

Psalm3704 said in post 5922:

The “great tribulation” of Matthew 24:20-28 parallels Daniel 12:1 . . .

Actually, Daniel 12:1 will occur right after the future, tribulation events of Daniel 11:15-45, and will include the very last part of the tribulation, when the surviving Jews in Jerusalem (who could have been protected by the 2 witnesses during the preceding 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign: Revelation 11:3-13, Revelation 13:5-18) will be attacked immediately before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). This final attack will be the time of Jacob's trouble, which the Jews will be saved from (Jeremiah 30:7) at the 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:5).

Daniel 12:2 will occur at the church's physical resurrection at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and before the millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For some in the church will lose their salvation at Jesus' 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Psalm3704 said in post 5922:

The tribulation is called a DAY OF WRATH in the Bible (Zephaniah 1:15) . . .

Actually, Zephaniah 1:14-18 refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. In its context, Zephaniah 1:14-18 was prophesying the destruction of the land of ancient Judah and neighboring countries (Zephaniah 1:4 to 2:5) by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC.

Psalm3704 said in post 5922:

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven?

Note that Matthew 24:31's parallel verse of Mark 13:27 shows that the church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth.

Psalm3704 said in post 5922:

People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.

Note that the rapture is not just a catching up, but also a gathering together to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That is, the rapture will take believers straight up into the sky wherever they are on the earth's surface. But this will be thousands of different places in the sky (the 1st heaven), all around the globe. So then they will need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where Jesus will be, above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a believer is raptured into the sky above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

So this is one purpose for the rapture: to get believers from all around the globe into one place in the sky above Jerusalem, to meet with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17b).

A 2nd purpose will be so that the church can then be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the sky, before Jesus descends to wage war against the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

*******

Psalm3704 said in post 5997:

Christ comes for the church and the tribulation begins with sudden destruction.

Are you thinking of the following verse?

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

If so, note that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

Bible2+ · Jan 13, 2016

BABerean2 quoted Lacunza in post 5928:

[Lacunza:]

Even putting the case, and for a moment granting that this perfidious Jew Antichrist, should be he who in other times shall build the temple of Jerusalem, it is asked, when this temple is built by Antichrist, shall it be really a temple of God?

Click to expand...

Regarding "the temple of Jerusalem", note that Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to (mistakenly) perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being "defiled".

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

BABerean2 quoted Lacunza in post 5928:

[Lacunza:]

Even putting the case, and for a moment granting that this perfidious Jew Antichrist, should be he who in other times shall build the temple of Jerusalem, it is asked, when this temple is built by Antichrist, shall it be really a temple of God?

Click to expand...

Regarding "shall it be really a temple of God", this is sometimes denied by saying that the church is now the only temple of God. But while the church as a whole is indeed a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), note that it isn't the only temple of God. For it coexisted with the literal, 2nd temple building which was in Jerusalem in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), just as the church coexisted, and still coexists today, with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all of these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' 1st coming (Matthew 23:21), and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That is why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God, because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6), because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

--

One reason that the 3rd Jewish temple of Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government has been very careful to protect the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque ever since Israel took military control of the Temple Mount back in 1967. For the Israeli government knows that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel were to destroy these buildings (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the current state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely.

While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic city-state of (what they could call ) "the True Israel". They could establish this within the walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the Temple Mount), and build on the Temple Mount a 3rd Jewish temple before which they can restart the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, and perfectly keep every jot and tittle of the Mosaic law, and banish every non-kosher person and thing from ever entering within Old Jerusalem's "Holy walls".

(This could point to another reason that the current, secular government of Israel doesn't want to let the ultra-Orthodox Jews build a 3rd temple: out of fear that the secular authority of the Israeli government could subsequently get undermined. For once temple practices resumed and a priesthood came into power, a creep toward theocracy could ensue in Israel, where priests and rabbis would become powerful enough to replace the secular leaders in Israel. So the secular leaders could want to simply place a hold on any drift in that direction by forbidding the building of a 3rd temple.)

Something which could help to bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to the point of desiring to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in "Samaria and Judaea" (also called the "West Bank"), and in eastern Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. (Any such handover won't happen without a removal of Netanyahu from power, possibly by assassination.) For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they are allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and completely destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

(A fear of the ultra-Orthodox Jews resorting to violence could be one of the reasons that the Israeli government refuses to hinder Jewish settlement activity in Samaria, Judaea, and eastern Jerusalem. It could also be one of the reasons that the U.S. government has been convinced by Israel to back off from requiring any such hindrance. But if down the road, pressure from the Arab masses for a Palestinian state becomes so extreme that it begins to threaten to overthrow U.S. hegemony over the Arab world, the U.S. could decide to force Israel to surrender all of the Jewish settlements to a Palestinian state.)

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements at some point in our future, something else which could help to tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place which He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount, and to let it remain under the religious control of the vile Muslims? Let us all rise up now, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

With such rhetoric, accompanied by his working of amazing miracles (cf. Matthew 24:24), a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel could whip up the ultra-Orthodox Jews there into a religious frenzy, so that they will all with great zeal, and without any fear, march in their tens of thousands upon the Temple Mount, and take total control of it, and then rejoice there and dance and sing holy hymns to God "for His great and mighty Victory".

Something else which could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is the occurrence of a series of great earthquakes in Jerusalem which will severely damage the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque, to the point where they will stop being used. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see this as (in their words) "Clearly a portent from God that he will no longer allow Muslims to trample His Holy Mountain. We must now reassert total Jewish control over it and rebuild His Holy Temple there".

Something else which could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark, because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see a retrieval of the Ark as (in their words) "An unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

Fearing that some ultra-Orthodox Jews could nonetheless somehow discover the top secret location of the buried Ark, and go there in the dead of night and dig it up without a permit from, or any notification to, the Israeli government, the government could have placed armed guards and surveillance cameras to watch over the buried Ark's location day and night.

But if the buried Ark's location is found out by some ultra-Orthodox Jews, they could round up tens of thousands of their fellows, armed with machine guns, and they could suddenly swarm the location, overwhelm any armed guards there, and hold off any subsequently-arrived IDF troops long enough to get the Ark out of the ground. Once it is out and the IDF troops actually see it, it is unlikely that they are going to try to stop the ultra-Orthodox Jews from parading it to the Temple Mount, they will be in such awe.

Also, once the ultra-Orthodox Jews make it to the Temple Mount and begin completely destroying the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, it is unlikely that the IDF troops are going to open fire, whether with lead bullets or rubber bullets, on their fellow Jews, slaughtering or injuring hundreds or thousands of them. Also, increasing numbers of IDF officers are very religious, so they could order their troops to stand down. And if some non-religious officers convince their troops to employ tear gas in an attempt to simply disperse the ultra-Orthodox Jews without harming them, this could be thwarted by the ultra-Orthodox Jews having brought along gas masks (which, ironically, could have been issued to them by the Israeli government itself, back when there was a fear that Saddam Hussein would send Scud missiles into Israel with chemical-weapons payloads).

So the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the complete destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque at the hands of the ultra-Orthodox Jews. And so the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the subsequent, retaliatory destruction of the state of Israel at the hands of enraged Muslim armies and militias.

Bible2+ · Jan 13, 2016

Luke17:37 said in post 5932:

Whatever we do share should aid people in understanding the clear framework God constructed through Scripture. That's what I'm doing every time I paste Matthew 24 and Luke 17 and show that the taken are the wicked--they are not the Church being raptured.

That's right.

For Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) in the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

Bible2+ · Jan 13, 2016

Postvieww said in post 5961:

Neither does 1 Corin 15:51-52 [refer to any coming of Jesus]

Note that 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-52 does.

Postvieww said in post 5961:

Babylon of Rev 14:8, 18:2 is a literal city, could, possibly, maybe, might, be Mecca.

Note that while the corrupt aspects of Mecca are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of Mecca. For Mecca just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is Mecca the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is Mecca the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has Mecca just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has Mecca been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

Postvieww said in post 5961:

Babylon of Rev 14:8, 18:2 is a literal city, could, possibly, maybe, might, be Mecca.

Do you also hold to the idea (which is quite common) that the Antichrist's religion will be Islam?

If so, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms that Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms that no man can be God, while the Antichrist will say that he is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), while the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly-apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

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Even though Islam (in its current form) won't be the religion of the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, Islam could be, since the latter half of the 7th century AD, Revelation 17:10's seventh empire (the Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, 8th empire: Revelation 17:11). Also, because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Islam is an anti-gospel religion because, even though it affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 5:17,75), it denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72). And it denies that he died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day. In order to be saved, people have to believe the gospel that Jesus is both the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46,47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

The reason why it is necessary to believe these things in order to be saved is because it was only as the human/divine Son of God that Jesus' suffering during his Passion could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

Jesus' suffering during his Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus isn't just a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of his soul (Isaiah 53:11) was infinite in amount, even though it wasn't infinite in duration. And so his suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins, they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11) an infinite amount, when the elect repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

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One way to help Muslims understand how Jesus can be God, from everlasting, is to question them about their understanding of the Muslim belief regarding the Koran. For Islam says that there was no time when the Koran didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven, that it has always coexisted with Allah as his word. So Christians can show Muslims that the Bible says that before Jesus' incarnation, there was no time when he didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven. He has always coexisted with God the Father as God the Word (John 1:1,14).

This isn't to suggest that the Muslim claim regarding the Koran is true, or that the book itself is true. Indeed, (again) because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Bible2+ · Jan 13, 2016

iamlamad said in post 5980:

God did say "until the fullness of the Gentiles" comes in.

In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus himself (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will be ashamed, and will all weep and become saved when they see Jesus and realize that he truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

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Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

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Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the tribulation doesn't mean that no Gentiles will be added to the church during the subsequent millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" doesn't have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it, so that the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it doesn't matter that the new believers during the millennium will be added to the church/bride (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage occurred at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size after her wedding.

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iamlamad said in post 5981:

Rev. 12: 1-5 is a parentheses speaking of the birth of Christ and how the devil tried to kill him.

Actually, in Revelation 12:5 the "man child" isn't Jesus, for Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up physically to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

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iamlamad said in post 5989:

That theory that the gifts of the Spirit left with the last Disciple of Jesus is silly!

That's right.

For the Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), which operate in believers who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46), won't cease operating until Jesus' 2nd coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when believers become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at his 2nd coming (1 John 3:2) will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future tribulation, which will just precede the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the church going to reject the ministry of the 2 witnesses, simply because it will involve them prophesying and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?

Because the 2nd coming, like the preceding tribulation, hasn't happened yet, all the Spirit's gifts are still operating in the church today, within Pentecostal-type congregations, and within charismatic-type congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands believers to operate in the Spiritual gifts when believers come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), such as by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which believers can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4,5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized believers will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46), for tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Different believers receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8), while other tongues are languages which people can't understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but aren't understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues aren't useless, however, for when they are prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20) to bless God and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12,13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God, they are singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

The Bible sets no restrictions on how much believers can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul the apostle prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They aren't to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there is someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only 3 people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so that he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).

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Besides getting water baptized, believers can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment they become believers. That is why Paul the apostle asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8,9,10,11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

Bible2+ · Jan 13, 2016

Douggg said in post 6001:

The person who becomes the beast is who kills the two witnesses.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

One aspect of Revelation's beast is that it is a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11) who is now literally in the bottomless pit and will ascend from it during the future tribulation to spiritually empower the empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 17:8-11), empire being a 3rd aspect of the beast, represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan had assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan had assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the bottomless pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (of Revelation 13:5-18).

The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of 4 other powerful fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b), who could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. When these 4 fallen angels are released at one point during the future tribulation, they will cause an army of 200 million strange horse-like beings to kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done in order to make mankind completely desperate before its takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).

n2thelight · Jan 13, 2016

@ B2

What's your take on the below verse?

Revelation 13:3 "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

n2thelight · Jan 13, 2016

Matthew 13:24-30 ...'Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; [NO] lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.'

Matthew 13:38-40 ...'The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.'

If the harvest is the end of the world,which scripture clearly shows,how do you'll(rapturist)get harvested before?

Psalm3704 · Jan 13, 2016

Bible2+ said:
Regarding returning "with Jesus", note that his coming FOR the church and WITH the church will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before he descends to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

Do you mean that this time will end before the tribulation? If so, regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

Actually, they are, as many pre-tribbers will admit. But Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) require a pre-tribulation rapture into heaven. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

Note that the woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, and be imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

Actually, Daniel 12:1 will occur right after the future, tribulation events of Daniel 11:15-45, and will include the very last part of the tribulation, when the surviving Jews in Jerusalem (who could have been protected by the 2 witnesses during the preceding 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign: Revelation 11:3-13, Revelation 13:5-18) will be attacked immediately before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). This final attack will be the time of Jacob's trouble, which the Jews will be saved from (Jeremiah 30:7) at the 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:5).

Daniel 12:2 will occur at the church's physical resurrection at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and before the millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For some in the church will lose their salvation at Jesus' 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Actually, Zephaniah 1:14-18 refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. In its context, Zephaniah 1:14-18 was prophesying the destruction of the land of ancient Judah and neighboring countries (Zephaniah 1:4 to 2:5) by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC.

Note that Matthew 24:31's parallel verse of Mark 13:27 shows that the church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth.

Note that the rapture is not just a catching up, but also a gathering together to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That is, the rapture will take believers straight up into the sky wherever they are on the earth's surface. But this will be thousands of different places in the sky (the 1st heaven), all around the globe. So then they will need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where Jesus will be, above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a believer is raptured into the sky above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

So this is one purpose for the rapture: to get believers from all around the globe into one place in the sky above Jerusalem, to meet with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17b).

A 2nd purpose will be so that the church can then be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the sky, before Jesus descends to wage war against the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

*******

Are you thinking of the following verse?

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

If so, note that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

Bible2, when are you gonna post reasons why there's a post tribulation rapture? I keep giving you 50 reasons and you still haven't produced one reason for a post trib rapture.

Anyways, another new 50.

*50 More Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen Before the Tribulation

1. So there’s definitely NO PEACE on earth during the first 3½ years of the tribulation (like “Pre-Wrathers” say)! The JUDGMENTS FALL from God’s THRONE (showing it’s FROM God and THE LAMB (Jesus) from the BEGINNING of OPENING THE SCROLL). The opening of the scroll STARTS a series of catastrophes which are SENT onto the earth. This is NOT the “wrath of man” or “the wrath of Satan” (even though God uses them as AGENTS of His judgments). THE ORIGIN of the WRATH is from the VERY PRESENCE of God--and is JUDGMENT FROM HIM (HIS WRATH)!

2. The SCROLL defined. It’s a TITLE DEED (a legal document) to the earth (which rightfully belongs to Jesus), Yet THE SCROLL is also a parchment of JUDGMENTS, by which Jesus will TAKE POSSESSION of what’s rightfully His. In order for Jesus to GAIN BACK that which BELONGS to Him, enemies MUST be destroyed. Psalms 2:1-12. Revelation 5:1-14.

3. The SCROLL is written on both sides, containing lamentations, mournings and woe. It’s “the CURSE” which goes out OVER THE WHOLE EARTH. The dimensions of the SCROLL are the same as THE HOLY OF HOLIES which shows that the JUDGMENTS are sent from the THRONE OF GOD. Ezekiel 2:9-10. Ezekiel 3:1-9. Zechariah 5:1-4. Revelation 6:1-17. Revelation 10:8-11 --(in chapter 10, the scroll IS OPEN, showing that Jesus had ALREADY ripped the seals OFF in chapter 6. Revelation 10 is a picture of Jesus LAYING CLAIM to the earth, by the LEGAL means of the OPEN SCROLL, yet more JUDGMENT must occur to COMPLETE the transaction.).

4. The FIRST SEAL reveals the antichrist, who is indeed a JUDGMENT (wrath) from God UPON ISRAEL for their sin of REJECTING Jesus at His first coming. Jesus came unto His OWN (Israel) and they received Him NOT--if one comes in HIS OWN NAME (the antichrist), they WILL receive him. John 1:11. John 5:43.

5. Isaiah 28:15-18 calls the “peace” COVENANT between Israel and the antichrist, revealed by the FIRST SEAL, “a covenant with death” and “an agreement with hell.” If that’s not WRATH and JUDGMENT, then WHAT is it?

6. The SEAL JUDGMENTS are clearly the WRATH OF THE LAMB (Jesus), who performs the JUDGMENTS of God in the “tribulation.” Revelation 6:16. 2 Timothy 4:1 and 2 Timothy 4:8.

7. At the opening of the 6th SEAL, kings and great men and people on the earth FINALLY REALIZE that God’s WRATH is upon them. It took MAJOR EVENTS in the heavens, and an earthquake, to AWAKEN these blinded people--so they can RECOGNIZE what’s been going on. The people SAY they must hide from THE WRATH OF THE LAMB (in this, we see the judgment IS from JESUS, as He removes the SEALS--so it IS His WRATH. The people add, “For the great day of His WRATH is come (is present).” Therefore, the SEALS contain the WRATH OF GOD. Revelation 6:16-17.

8. The 7th SEAL on the SCROLL brings ominous silence in heaven. Also proceeding from the 7th SEAL are the TRUMPET JUDGMENTS. The harsher judgments of God are unleashed WHEN the 7th seal is opened. The trumpets COME FORTH FROM the 7th seal--bringing increased WRATH. Revelation 8:1-2.

9. Likewise, the “bowl judgments” PROCEED from THE BLOWING of the 7th TRUMPET (MAKE NOTE--with so much PARENTHETICAL information from chapter 11 to 16, it’s DIFFICULT to SEE that progression, but it’s there if you pay CLOSE ATTENTION to detail).

10. ALL of God’s WRATH is contained in the SCROLL, and will be SET LOOSE in it’s proper order, issuing from THE OPENING of the 7th SEAL, which brings the TRUMPETS, which bring the BOWLS. (For a clearer picture for this concept, think of a “telescoped” eyeglass with segments that slide out for greater vision--as EACH PORTION of the judgments PROCEED from the opening of the 7th SEAL, a harsher element of God’s WRATH emerges.)

11. The BOWL JUDGMENTS “fill-up” (and COMPLETE) the WRATH of God. The BOWLS are NOT the BEGINNING of God’s wrath, but the COMPLETION of it. Revelation 15:1.

12. Many people do NOT fully understand HOW BAD the “tribulation” will TRULY be. It will be WORSE than the flood of Noah’s day--NO other time like it since the creation of the world! Matthew 24:21-22.

13. At THE END of the “tribulation,” when Jesus ARRIVES at the Armageddon scene, there’s NO mention of A RESURRECTION. The Rapture (which INCLUDES a resurrection) CANNOT happen at that time, as Post-Tribbers insist. Isaiah 63:1-6, Zechariah 14:1-15, Revelation 19:11-21.

14. If there were a Rapture at THE END of the “tribulation,” ALL the believers who SURVIVED would be CHANGED into IMMORTAL GLORIFIED bodies. ALL the ENEMIES will be destroyed. There would be NO ONE LEFT IN NATURAL FLESH BODIES to POPULATE the Millennium! The Rapture CANNOT happen at the end of the “tribulation.”

15. Some say the “gathering of the elect” in Matthew 24:31 is “the Rapture” at THE END of the “tribulation.” But, in the Rapture, JESUS calls His own UP to Himself. ANGELS gather the “elect” at THE END of the “tribulation.”

16. The “elect” of Israel and SURVIVORS of the “tribulation” will be gathered from wherever the antichrist has scattered them--to the four winds--directions of the earth. Israel will be found mostly in Bozrah (in modern day Jordan-- Isaiah 63:1).

17. The ANGELS also gather “the elect” from ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER--the gathering of Old Testament saints and martyred “tribulation” saints for THE RESURRECTION of their bodies as seen inRevelation 20:4, so they’ll be able to participate in the Feast of Tabernacles, which will take place 5 days after Jesus returns, according to the timing of the Jewish feasts that will be fulfilled when Jesus returns.

18. There’s also the Judgment of the Sheep and Goat nations after Jesus returns to the earth, and it must take place BEFORE the Millennium is officially started. People are “gathered” FOR these things.

19. The tribulation period is DESCRIBED in extensive prophecies throughout the scripture. Here’s is a LENGTHY LIST of the words that DEFINE it----Wasteness, desolation, darkness, gloominess, clouds, thick darkness, blood, vengeance, destruction, fierce anger, fire, jealousy, cruel, trouble, great distress, revenge, furious, arrow drunk with blood, sword, terrible, men’s hearts failing them for fear, the powers of heaven shall be shaken, wars, great earthquakes, famines, pestilences, fearful signs, great tribulation--such as was not from the beginning of the world to this time, the earth utterly broken down, the earth clean dissolved, the moon shall be confounded, the sun ashamed, to punish leviathan, to slay the dragon that is in the sea, a covenant with death, an overflowing scourge, hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, your agreement with hell, you shall be trodden down by it, the earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, the stars of heaven shall not give their light, I will shake the heavens, the earth shall remove out of her place (her orbit and axis?), to punish the world for their evil and the wicked for their iniquity, lamentations, mournings, woe, sound an alarm, let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, they shall run like mighty men, they shall climb the wall like men of war, the people shall be much pained, howl ye, the moon became as blood, stars of heaven fell to the earth, the curse that goes forth over the face of the whole earth, death and hell followed with him, thundering, lightnings, the smoke of the pit, men shall seek death--and shall not find it, the torment of a scorpion, it (the sea) became the blood of a dead man, men were scorched with great heat, they gnawed their tongues for pain, every island fled and the mountains were not found, except those days be shortened--there should be no flesh saved, and then the end shall come. (This is not a complete list.)

20. There is no proper PROOF that the 7th trumpet of Revelation is the “last” trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52. THAT EXPLANATION IS ACCEPTED ONLY ON THE BASIS OF PRECONCEIVED IDEAS and ASSUMPTION. The Pre-Trib view maintains the PROPER distinction between the PROPHETIC TRUMPS of the Church, and the JUDGMENT TRUMPETS of the tribulation.

21. The Apostle Paul wrote about the “last” trumpet DECADES BEFORE John saw the SEVEN “judgment trumpets” of the Revelation. The Apostle Paul’s “last trump” was written in 60 A.D. John’s vision came 30+ years later--around 96 A.D. The Apostle Paul could NOT have known about the 7th and “last trumpet” of Revelation--BEFORE it was revealed to John on the isle of Patmos!

22. The TRUMP OF GOD brings in blessing, eternal life, glorified bodies. 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The seven trumpets of the Revelation brings destruction upon the enemies and God’s WRATH.

23. The TRUMP OF GOD is DISTINCTLY for the Church. Since God deals with Israel and a rebellious world in the tribulation, the 7th trumpet CANNOT refer to the Church without losing THE DISTINCTIONS between Israel and the Church.

24. The LAST TRUMP for the Church in the Pre-Trib Rapture--is the TRUMP OF GOD. The Revelation trumpets are blown by ANGELS.

25. The LAST TRUMP for the Church is to “call an assembly” to rise and meet Jesus in the air. The Revelation trumpets SEND God’s JUDGMENTS onto a rebellious world.

26. The LAST TRUMP for the Church is A CALL to come WORSHIP at Gods’ throne. The Revelation judgment trumpets cause people to HARDEN THEIR HEARTS and they do NOT REPENT-- Revelation 9:20-21.

27. The LAST TRUMP for the Church is FOR BELIEVERS. The 7th trumpet judgment in Revelation is FOR UNBELIEVERS.

28. The LAST TRUMP for the Church is an act of God’s GRACE. The 7th trumpet judgment in Revelation is an act of God’s WRATH.

29. In the TRUMP OF GOD passage, for the Church, we are exhorted to “Comfort one another with these words.” At the 7th trumpet in Revelation, “the nations will be angry.”

30. When the LAST TRUMP blows for the Church at the Rapture, Jesus will NOT be in heaven (like He is at the sounding of the 7th Revelation trumpet). Instead, Jesus descends into the air to call the Church to Himself. In the Revelation passage of the 7th trumpet, there’s NO MENTION of Jesus descending, shouting or being in the clouds.

31. The “last trump” for the Church in the Rapture and the 7th trumpet of the Revelation CANNOT be the same.

32. In Numbers 10:1-10, the uses of trumpets are defined. Two silver trumpets were constructed for the purpose of “calling the assembly together to worship” and for “the journeying of the camps.” When the camp was called to move, ONE trumpet would blow and the east part of the camp went forward. A SECOND trumpet would sound and the south part of the camp would move. Numbers 10:1-10 doesn’t mention the north and west sides, or the tribe of Levi and the tabernacle (as seen in Numbers 2:1-34)--but a THIRD, FOURTH and FIFTH trumpet MUST have sounded for the moving of the camps. At the LAST TRUMPET, the WHOLE camp would be MOVING OUT.

33. The Apostle Paul, being a well-taught Jew, had to KNOW the MEANING of the LAST TRUMPET (by the Israeli definition). At the LAST TRUMP for the Church, which is A SIGNAL that our work is done, the WHOLE assembly will MOVE “camp” to heaven.

34. Some people think the ascension of the “two witnesses” in Revelation 11:12 is the Rapture of the Church. (a.) The “two witnesses” are RAISED from the dead BEFORE THE BLOWING of the 7th trumpet in Revelation! But at the VERY INSTANT the TRUMP is BLOWN for THE CHURCH, the resurrection/ rapture will happen.

35. Some people think the ascension of the “two witnesses” in Revelation 11:12 is the Rapture of the Church. (b.) The Church will be Raptured in the TWINKLING OF AN EYE. The TWINKLING OF THE EYE is INSTANTANEOUS--split-fractions of a second! For the Church, it’s “Now you see them--now you don’t!” BUT the “two witnesses” will have TIME to stand on their feet and THE WHOLE WORLD will WATCH them on satellite TV. The resurrection of the “two witnesses” CANNOT be the Rapture of the Church.

36. In Exodus 19:16-20, there’s a TRUMP OF GOD as God DESCENDED upon Mt. Sinai--NO angels or people blew this trumpet--but God Himself. At the second occurrence of the TRUMP OF GOD, at the rapture of the Church, NO angels or people will blow it.

37. At Mt. Sinai and in the Rapture, BOTH the TRUMP OF GOD and an AUDIBLE VOICE are heard. Exodus 19:19 --(God answered Moses by voice) and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 --(the SHOUT of Jesus).

38. At Mt. Sinai, Israel was redeemed from slavery to Egypt. At the Rapture, the Church is REDEEMED from our sinful flesh (which CAN INDEED hold a Christian in slavery--IF we DON’T reckon ourselves DEAD to sin through Jesus).

39. At Mt. Sinai, God DWELLED with Israel. At the Rapture, the Church DWELLS with Jesus.

40. The TRUMP OF GOD sounded on Mt. Sinai for Israel on the FEAST OF PENTECOST. The SECOND, and LAST TRUMP OF GOD, relates to a Church that BEGAN on PENTECOST.

41. THE TRUMP OF GOD is a DIFFERENT TRUMPET than the ones used in the judgments of the tribulation. The 7th trumpet CANNOT be the LAST TRUMP of the Church’s rapture!

42. The SEVEN FEASTS of THE LORD, given to Israel in Leviticus 23:1-44 is God’s TIMETABLE. They show PROPHETIC FULFILLMENT'S of the crucifixion of Jesus, the birth of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus.

43. Four of the FEASTS are FULFILLED on the EXACT DAY when Israel observed them! (a.) PASSOVER, the 14th of Nisan, the FIRST MONTH of Israel’s RELIGIOUS YEAR. Jesus was CRUCIFIED on the VERY SAME DAY--the LAMB OF GOD, Who TAKES AWAY the sins of the world. (b.) UNLEAVENED BREAD, the 15th of Nisan. Jesus was BURIED by sundown, the START of that feast--Jesus’ burial on that EXACT DATE represents and FULFILLS the middle loaf which was HIDDEN or BURIED in the feast of Unleavened Bread. (c.) FIRSTFRUITS, the Sunday after Unleavened Bread (in 32 A.D., that EXACT DAY occurred THREE DAYS after Jesus was buried). On the THIRD DAY, Jesus ROSE from the DEAD and became THE FIRSTFRUITS of them that died. Fulfilled exactly! (d.) PENTECOST--also called the “Feast of Weeks,” 50th day after Firstfruits. The Holy Spirit descended upon the FIRST believers of THE CHURCH. When PENTECOST (Shavuot) was FULFILLED on the EXACT DAY of its CELEBRATION, the FIRST MEMBERS of the NEW CHURCH were JEWS, so the FEAST was FULFILLED in ISRAEL--even though the Church became predominantly Gentile throughout its history.

44. Since the FIRST THREE feasts were FULFILLED on EXACT DAYS that Israel observed them, so also, we can safely assume that the LAST THREE feasts will be FULFILLED on the EXACT DAY of their observance, too. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.

45. The LAST THREE feasts PROPHESY the events of Jesus’ Second Coming. (a.) The FEAST OF TRUMPETS (Rosh Hashanah), first day of the 7th month of Tishri (which is also the FIRST DAY of the FIRST MONTH of Israel’s CIVIL YEAR)! This is when Israel celebrates their NEW YEAR! On that day, A NEW SEVEN YEARS will BEGIN for Israel, as antichrist confirms a COVENANT with them, which STARTS the tribulation. [The Church will be Raptured BEFORE that event occurs.] (b.) Yom Kippur, the FEAST OF ATONEMENT, the 10th day of the 7th month. This will be THE DAY when Jesus ATONES the sins of Israel (they will be forgiven and restored)--and He will set His feet on the Mt. of Olives on THIS DAY of His Second Coming. The Second Coming will SIMULTANEOUSLY fulfill A JUBILEE (Leviticus 25:9-15) in Israel on the DAY OF ATONEMENT. The land will return to its RIGHTFUL OWNERS, and THE EARTH will return to THE LORD’S POSSESSION. Captives will be set free and all debts will be forgiven. All these DETAILS are a part of what Jesus will do as His feet touch the earth on THAT DAY OF ATONMENT. (c.) THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES (Sukkot), the 15th day of the 7th month. Five days after Jesus has returned to the earth, the celebration of God living with His people (dwelling with, tabernacling with them) will be celebrated. Zechariah 14:16. Fulfilled on the EXACT DAY of its celebration!

46. These FEASTS are for Israel. The Church has NOT been instructed to keep them. Colossians 2:16-17.

47. Some teach that the Rapture of the Church will happen on Pentecost to END the Church age on the SAME DAY the Church was born. The idea is INCORRRECT for THREE reasons. (a.) Although the Church was born on Pentecost, it fulfilled a FEAST DAY for Israel, because the FIRST who were born into the Church were Jews. (b.) If we needed to wait for the Lord to Rapture His Church on Pentecost (from year to year), it DESTROYS IMMINENCE. (c.) We’ll NOT know the day or the hour when the Church will be Raptured, so we’re exhorted to be WATCHING for Jesus.

48. Some teach that the Rapture of the Church will happen on the FEAST OF TRUMPETS (because of the TRUMPETS, in relation to the Rapture). The idea is incorrect for the THREE reasons. (a.) The Trumpets BLOW to ANNOUNCE a NEW YEAR in Israel, NOT to Rapture the Church! This also FORCES the idea that the Church will be Raptured at the SAME TIME that the antichrist signs the “peace agreement” with Israel (which STARTS the tribulation). There’s NOTHING in prophecy to suggest that AT THE INSTANT the Church is removed, the tribulation begins. It’s logical that SOME TIME must pass--between the Rapture, and WHEN the antichrist gains enough power to make that covenant. (b.) If we needed to wait for the Lord to Rapture His Church on some future Feast of Trumpets, it DESTROYS IMMINENCE. (c.) We’ll NOT know the day or the hour when the Church will be Raptured, so we’re exhorted to be WATCHING for Jesus.

49. Where’s the SOUND Biblical doctrine SHOWING that the Rapture occurs SOMETIME WITHIN the tribulation. THERE’S NONE!

50. There is indeed SOUND Biblical doctrine SHOWING that the Rapture is PRE-TRIBULATION. IN MANY PLACES!

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Psalm3704 · Jan 13, 2016

n2thelight said:
@ B2

What's your take on the below verse?

Revelation 13:3 "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

I'm not B2 but it's one of his heads was wounded to death, not him who is wounded.

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Psalm3704 · Jan 13, 2016

Bible2+ said:
That's right.

For Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming,

This just totally defies logic: people eating, drinking and marrying at the 2nd coming!

Matthew 24:37-38
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

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Postvieww · Jan 13, 2016

Psalm3704 said:
There is none! No scriptural support of a post trib rapture in Matthew 24:31. Only people like yourself always promoting a rapture here without taking into consideration the elects are gathered from heaven. Here's your scriptural response: "In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down...silly clown."

Where's your scriptural evidence Matthew 24:31 is the rapture? Because you think so?

That's just your opinion, which doesn't hold much credibility, nor scriptural support. Just a bunch of "I think so" theories. Context is key, your opinions are not. Context is everything, your opinions are not. Context is what stands, your opinion does not as it'll be proven wrong once Christ comes for the church and the tribulation begins with sudden destruction.

It's already been addressed. You just haven't figured it out yet cause it keeps going over your head. How long is this thread now with others having tried to explain the rapture to you as well? The only way you'll figure it out is when the rapture happens, millions of people just vanished and you'll still be on CF debating with others on this same thread over the timing of the rapture.

Silly clown!

Exactly! This is why you don't get it! If all trumpets are the same, why does the 7 trumpets being handed out to the 7 angels not referred as 7 trumpets of God? Why are the 7 angels not referred as 7 archangels? Just like everything else, this too went over your head.

.

Psalm3704 said:

There is none! No scriptural support of a post trib rapture in Matthew 24:31. Only people like yourself always promoting a rapture here without taking into consideration the elects are gathered from heaven. Here's your scriptural response: "In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down...silly clown."

Restating your same postion “"In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down” is no response.

Apparently that post went right over your head, if can’t come up with a real response say so. If you can’t find the original post, I will repost it, but you have offered nothing here to support your erroneous statement.

BTW who are the elects in Ro 8:33, Col. 3:12, 2 Tim 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 John 1, 2 John 13,

Postvieww said: ↑

Bad example the context is different in the two you show here. The context is the same in the passages we are really discussing. Try addressing the real point.

It's already been addressed. You just haven't figured it out yet cause it keeps going over your head. How long is this thread now with others having tried to explain the rapture to you as well? The only way you'll figure it out is when the rapture happens, millions of people just vanished and you'll still be on CF debating with others on this same thread over the timing of the rapture.

The scripture you offered from Ecclesiastes 12:2 only mentioned the sun, moon and stars. The context was not the coming of the Lord or the endtimes. The comparison made was not relevant therefore a “bad example”.

Postvieww said: ↑

I do not believe anyone was discussing Rev 8:2 when I said “They are all God’s trumpet’s”. Nor were we talking about those 7 angels.

Exactly! This is why you don't get it! If all trumpets are the same, why does the 7 trumpets being handed out to the 7 angels not referred as 7 trumpets of God? Why are the 7 angels not referred as 7 archangels? Just like everything else, this too went over your head.

Nice tactic, diversion is the name of the game. We were discussing other scriptures when I made the above statement. You just threw in Rev 8 as another diversion. Ok I’ll play and give you the red meat you were looking for the first time. Will you really deny those 7 trumpets are God’s trumpets? As far as whether or not any of them are the archangel Michael, the scriptures simply do not say one way or the other. Show me a reason why the 7th cannot be Michael. While Michael is the only archangel named in the NT, Daniel says he is ONE OF THE CHIEF PRINCES. Think maybe there could be more?

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Still looking for a real response.

Fusion77 · Jan 13, 2016

iamlamad said:
Very interesting. I have a friend that absolutely will not preach something from the New Testament until God shows him the shadow from the old.

If a revelation starts with a vision it's always a possibility. But, if a revelation starts with a vision that uncovers what appeared to be contradictions in scripture and such. Then you know it's from God.

BABerean2 · Jan 13, 2016

n2thelight said:
@ B2

What's your take on the below verse?

Revelation 13:3 "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

I lean toward the "Historicist" view in this regard, since Rome is the city on 7 hills.
This fact can be found on brochures printed up for the tourism industry.
One guy even wrote a song about it.

The current pope is stepping up the pace of uniting all of the world's religions under one umbrella and is seeking her lost daughters of the Protestant Reformation.
Some Methodists and Lutherans have recently signed a statement of cooperation in this regard.

Audio only

Fusion77 · Jan 13, 2016

iamlamad said:
I have never doubted that Jesus will build the temple of the last chapters of Ezekiel. Only in a way will the Holy Spirit be taken away: there are millions in the world today anointed by Him. When they go up in the rapture, the anointing goes with them. So in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, there is no one on earth anointed of the Holy Spirit.

You see, the captives are a type and shadow of of us. All were at one point captive to sin, or exiled in Babylon, or Egypt. We will be here to help "build" the final part of the temple. The foundation having already been laid by Christ the cornerstone with the apostles and prophets Ephesians 2:20. The Holy Spirit and Christ will continue to be ever present in this building in these end days.

The Jews recognize the term Branch as their messiah. When Zechariah 6:11-15 talks about Him building the temple...the anti christ will use that to his advantage. We know this isn't talking about a physical temple. The AC will convince many other wise. The AOD will happen during the fall feasts. I have scripture that shows me this 99%.

Zechariah 3:9-10 the stone is in Isaiah 28:16 the eyes (spirit) of the Lord are upon the stone Isaiah 11:2.
The 7 eyes are the 7 Spirits of God Revelation 5:6. The 7 lamps also represent the spirit of God Revelation 4:5 that's what empowers the Lampstands and olive trees in the final days. The Lamb and Holy Spirit will be ever present in the "building " of the final spiritual temple. The witnesses, the church will be here, empowered by the Spirit and Christ to "work" and sow seed to a dying world. This is your chance to instruct many. Daniel 11:33. The Lord is not willing that any perish he WILL use us as vessels filled with His Holy Spirit to witness in these last days, during the tribulation.

FelixDane · Jan 13, 2016

keras said:
k

Hi Felix, perhaps you need to do some more study of what the Bible actually tells us.
Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6 are clear: the saints will reign with Jesus on earth for the 1000 years.

Hi Keras. Revelation 20:4-6 are exactly what I am referring to. Along with 7:14 and 22:14, I believe the first resurrection inludes Christianity as a whole, with the Saints revered as in 20:4-6.

On account of the Revelations as a whole, there is a lot of detail going on here. I'd like to adress the grand scheme.

First, it is opening of the seals, and these seals guard the book of life. So therefore, the first seal, is the inclusion of everyone. It is the white rider, that is often misunderstood. But to be in the book of life, you must be saved by God. So the first seal, is The Gospel, the Story of God, The salvation from Jesus Christ, the Church, and it includes everyone in the book of Life. It's the plan of God as a whole.

The first seal is a positive, the rest of the seals are negative, they detract people from having their names written in the book of life.So the 4 Horsemen, are the four winds that drive mans history forward. War, trade, disease and Death itself, are what has driven us as mankind to do what we do and to be where we are. They are the 4 winds of history, and still driving us about today. And along with the calamities from the Wrath of God, the opening of the other seals; these 6 seals are making people "not believe in God". And thus not be written into the book of life.

So the first seal is intent to save all, and the rest are what happens in this world, that makes people fall from God.

I also understand the Revelation, and thus the End times, as the whole passage of the 2000 years from then to here. As such, I believe we should look upon the disasters that have already happened, as taking part in the Revelations. Therefore, a plague like the Black Death, that ravaged the Medieaval times, is part of the Revelation.

That being said, I do understand that the story is likened to a woman in labor, and as thus, the woes will intensify in the end.

This will be a time where mankind denies God, even though the calamities are happening as described. Perhaps they will be understood as the consequences of global warming.

This continues till Abbadon ascends from the abyss. Till the woe that is the locusts. Then mankind will realise, that what is being done to them is done to them by some intelligence. These locusts are extremely painful, and are clearly "intelligent design". Thus mankind will feel mocked in the most painful of the punishment, and God will destroy all their faith here on Earth.

That faith, is not the Faith of the Holy, for it endures. No it is those who mocked Faith, that will see it taken away from them. Those that had faith in science, will lose it, those that had faith in other Gods, will lose their faith too.

In other words, the world will from here say; we're doomed, as this is a crime being done unto us. They will turn to Satan, and Christians and Jews, will be regarded as enemy, and be followed and killed. Satan will be a merger of the 2 we know, the False Prophet, and the Beast. Without going into detail, the False prophet has half the world, and the Darwinistic animal, the other half. The False Prophet is the Liar, and the Animal is the Murderer, and Satan will be a merger of those 2. One could speculate, that he will stand with a foot in the lands of the Animal, and a foot in the Lands of the False Prophet. By that i mean Istanbul.

Regardless of this, he will clearly be very evil, and noone will need any conspiracy theories to understand what is going on. Instead mankind will chose to lie about it, but all will know, that this is a very evil man.

So those who deny the Truth of the Heavens, will be divided in a world that is ruled by 2 black lies.

This marks a terrible time for mankind, and for the Holy. And it is why, some have invented a premature Rapture, where they will be spared these things. But that is not correct, and as such, an evil. As it will not happen and thus shake the Faith of those who awaited it.

May peace in the Lord, be with all who read this. It is after all, just one life, and one death, for us all.

Postvieww · Jan 13, 2016

Riberra said:
Possibly that Bible2 refers to something similar that was said by Jesus in Matthew 28:18 which did not mean that Jesus at this time 2,000 years ago have taken the Earth from the power and influence of the prince of the power of the air (Satan) Ephesians 2:2

You will notice that just before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet it is written in Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
....Jesus is certainly not the third woe....But it is Satan who will be cast out from Heaven down to Earth

Jesus will reign physically on the Earth when Satan will be lock into the Bottomless Pit.

Matthew 28

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Before I respond to the points you've raised, let me thank you for the stand you have taken on this forum. I believe we agree on the major points of this rapture discussion.

Riberra said:

Possibly that Bible2 refers to something similar that was said by Jesus in Matthew 28:18 which did not mean that Jesus at this time 2,000 years ago have taken the Earth from the power and influence of the prince of the power of the air (Satan) Ephesians 2:2

I understand the point you are making and the point Bible2+ was making , I just disagree. IMHO

I believe trying to put off to a future date the events of Rev 11:15-19 are just not consistent with the text. It’s very true many of us on both sides of this issue disagree on the order of Revelation. That disagreement in my thinking is the basis for not accepting Christ’s return could be at the seventh trumpet. Something like “it couldn’t possibly mean that because I have already decided the book is chronological” some would reason.

You will notice that just before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet it is written in Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

....Jesus is certainly not the third woe....But it is Satan who will be cast out from Heaven down to Earth

I agree Jesus is not the third woe. I believe Revelation is a series of overlapping events, I realize you see it differently , but let me make my point. I believe we see “the end” described in Rev 6:12-17, Rev. 11:15-19, Rev 14: 14-20, Rev 16:17-21. In this context I define “the end” as the return of Jesus , the battle of armegeddon, the end of the church age not the end of all things. Many of the other chapters describe events in greater detail contained within those summaries. For example the 42 month ministry of the two witness is contained within chapter 11 alone. They are kill by AC whose reign is 42 months as well so I believe his demise is contained in Rev 11:18-19 with greater detail of his 3 1/2 years described in other later chapters. While the war in heaven is described in some detail in chapter 12, I ‘m convinced it actually overlaps chapter 6, 11 and 16. Note, the 3 ½ period of protecting the 144,00 must overlap the other 3 ½ time periods mentioned in Revelation. While the word woe is used in Rev12:12, the third angel is mentioned in Rev 14:9 in the context of the demise of those who follow AC. I see no conflict with the 3 woes.

Jesus will reign physically on the Earth when Satan will be lock into the Bottomless Pit.

Agreed

Matthew 28

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

As I said before I see the point you are raising, but I do not believe it is the same type of situation as Rev 11. I believe Jesus received that power (authority) when He rose from the grave He is not waiting to get it at some future date.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Jesus said all power was given to Him but in vs 19 He instructs us to go in that "power" Greek word vs 18 is 1849 “Exousia” or authority.

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

It is difficult sometimes to understand why believers in Christ can have such varied views at times.

We are all still learning, some think they have already attained all knowledge, but none of US have yet. Just remember Peter who walked with Christ, was filled with the Holy Ghost and by that power worked miracles, had to be corrected in some of his beliefs, look at Acts 10.

Galatians 2

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

I have too many questions about the order of Revelation to have them solved by a simple declaration like it’s John’s order get over it. I’m a show me person.

Again thanks for your stand and God Bless. Pray for me and others on this forum, none of us want to be in error.

Why do people believe in a Rapture?

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

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And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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