Differences Between Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath

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Okay then, so you agree (and so do I) that at this point in our understanding of prophecy that the Lord's return is at the sixth seal sign. The Lord takes his children away with Him for "marriage and the supper" and while that is happening the Lord is administering the "Day of the Lord" upon the rest of the earth. This is the basic gist of pre-wrath. Cool.

So then how does this square with Universalism, if everyone is in heaven? You see, I don't get your disjointed theology here. :scratch:
 
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Rize

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Today at 07:46 AM ladylove said this in Post #45

Okay then, so you agree (and so do I) that at this point in our understanding of prophecy that the Lord's return is at the sixth seal sign. The Lord takes his children away with Him for "marriage and the supper" and while that is happening the Lord is administering the "Day of the Lord" upon the rest of the earth. This is the basic gist of pre-wrath. Cool.

So then how does this square with Universalism, if everyone is in heaven? You see, I don't get your disjointed theology here. :scratch:

It's very simple, the people who go into the Lake of Fire simply don't stay there for ever.  I have no idea how long they will be there for, but it simply won't be endless.  If you ever get around to reading the first link in my sig (and not skimming it) all of your questions will be answered.  Then it will come down to whether or not "eternal" is an accurate translation of aionion. 

And, as I've said elsewhere, I believe that Pre-Wrath is the most tenable position among the pre-millenial views.  I have not yet studied post-millenialism (preterism?) and amillenialism and so cannot dismiss them yet.

LL, if you ever want to chat in real-time (which could be more productive), that would be cool.  My AIM name is in my profile.  I also have MSN Messenger and can log onto an IRC chat room with no trouble.
 
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JesusServant

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(Revelation 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Revelation 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Revelation 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rize, hell will not last forever, but the lake of fire will and hell is cast there. Also, we gather from 20:14 that the lake of fire has torment "for ever and ever". It is a very positive thing Rize, that you do not want to see any person suffer the lake of fire and this should be motivation for you to spread the Gospel. I too, pray it is true that all will be saved, but there are too many Scriptures that tell us that this is not so.

The smoke of their burning will rise up forever. Not only are the beast, false prophet and satan cast here but those whose names are not in the Book of Life.
 
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stumpsitting101

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Rize: With all due respect to you and your eagerness to learn. I also feel that you trust the truth recorded in the scriptures, once established. According to what is written in Rev. 20 as cited by JS, in the Lake of Fire is the last place Satan is located. I personally feel, if that is the last place mentioned of his whereabouts according to scriptures, then it would be best to leave him there. To go beyond that is very presumptuous on our part.
I hope you take this with love and understanding.
Blessings
Ken
 
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Rize

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JesusServant,

Did I say that people's whose names aren't in the book of life will not be thrown into the lake of fire?  By the way, that is supposed to be Hades not Hell.  Hades is the term used by the LXX (Septuigant) translators for the Hebrew word Sheol.  The traditional concept of Hell, as a place where people burn forever, most closely matches the Lake of Fire, so the term "Hell" should not be used to describe Hades or Sheol (and in most modern Bibles it does not).

Even so, the issue, again, revolves around whether or not aion and aionios have been translated correctly.  In case you didn't know, the Greek words behind "forever and ever" are "into the aions of aions".  Most of the time, aion(s) is translated "age".  As in, "He will not have forgiveness in this age or the age to come".  Or "His mercy endures for ages". 

So again, whether or not universalism is true revolves around whether or not aion and aionios can ever explicitly express ever, forever, or eternity.  There is compelling evidence that they cannot.  If I am correct, then everything you think you know about the fate of the wicked is subject to error.  Perhaps you should do some research and find out if I'm right or not.  Be sure not to just read the information from the anti-universalists.  For pro-universalist info, you can check my "I give up" thread, or my signature.

StumpSitting101,

Will the Rich Man ever get out of Hades?  He doesn't in Jesus' parable/story.  However, the book of Revelation reveals that Hades will give up all of the dead within it so that they can be judged.  In the same way, we can infer from other scripture that the Lake of Fire will not be the final resting place of the ******.  They will eventually come to salvation.  As for Satan, I am not going to make any dogmatic statements regarding him.  I feel that God will ultimately reconcile all things to Himself, just as it says in Colossians 1:20, but I'm willing to settle for all people which is clearly supported in many scriptures.

Thank you for respecting my decision to challenge orthodoxy.  I think that if you spend some time studying, you will also find that, at the very least, that the doctrine of universal salvation is not easily defeated.
 
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stumpsitting101

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Rize: Please be patient with me, I'm old now, though I've been an avid and regular student of Scriptures for over 30 years now, a large portion in eschotology, I'm still interested in seeing the other views. I did find a couple of questions that interested me in your quote and scripture reference. And I do respect your knowledge even your age. (How can I make that statement, without seeming to play the age trump card, which I hope your don't feel I'm doing? I'm not)

Col 1:20
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. KJV

Notice the "all things" which will be reconciled to Jesus, as to the location where they will be found. Things "in" (could also use: of, on, about , above, after, against, among, at, beside, and upon.) Usually when scriptures refer and include to the dead in Hades, it makes the statement of "those under the earth". Only two locations mentioned at this particular reference.

Second, the phrase "all things" is not referring to all items, persons, places or objects. But rather by defination, to all words which God himself has spoken. I truly believe if God spoke it that settles it, wheither I believer it or not. Yes, I must know what He personally has spoken and is even now speaking words (pas- things) to His people.

All Things: pas (pas); NT:3956
including all the forms of declension (the inflection of such words); apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole.

Your Quote: "we can infer from other scripture that the Lake of Fire will not be the final resting place of the ******."

Please remember that "infer" is not as reliable as the absolute writen/ spoken word.
Keep posting, "come let us reason together"; as iron sharpens iron.
Who knows just what I might learn today?
I think you're a great guy who is joined with us in the multitude on a long journey of the Christian Quest.
Blessings
Ken
 
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Rize

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Today at 06:17 PM stumpsitting101 said this in Post #51

Rize: I forgot to answer your question, but I must know which Rich Man your are inquiring: The young Rich Man or the Rich Ruler? I would guess the Rich Ruler, but I'm not answering for you, I just need to know, that's all.
Ken

I was thinking of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (some translations say that He is in "Hell", but the original word is "Hades" which is analgous to the OT Sheol (also mistranslated Hell in some translations)).
 
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Rize

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The age thing doesn't bother me.  I have the credentials :)  I am a college graduate, with a difficult to obtain degree (Computer Science) and a respectable GPA of 3.54.  I'm confident in my intellectual ability (sometimes too confident).  Experience does not ward me off because often that experience is not spent in a pursuit that is relevant to what I have learned!  For example, you can study the Bible for 30 years without realizing that the translations you were using may be significantly flawed.

Before I became a universalist (in the last 10 days or so), I debated with a universalist (in October of 2002) and she refused to meet me on my level.  She ignored all of my challenges, and instead gave me pro-universalist scriptures and the age card.

So, I am glad that you are willing to take me seriously :)  If I am wrong and you are right, you taking me seriously is the only way that I can hope to learn from you (and vice versa).

Now, with regard to Colossians 1:20, I agree that it is not strongly suggestive that the fallen angels are included.  Even so, by the very nature of God, I believe that the fallen angels (including Satan) will eventually be reconciled.

With regard to inferring that the Lake of Fire will not be the final resting place of the d*mned, that must be done sometimes (as I suggested by citing the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus).  Sometimes blanks need to be filled in.  No one saw Jesus resurrect from the dead.  They saw him alive after he had died though, and from this, they could infer that he had indeed risen from the dead.

I wouldn't infer such a thing without good reason.

As I've mentioned to others, the key to this entire debate is whether or not aion and aionios have been correctly translated.  If they have not, then the entire house of cards will fall with the removal of the foundation.
 
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stumpsitting101

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Rize: Before I post my next post, which to me is quite lengthy, which i don't like lengthy post, I will assure you that I do take you seriously, and I do not believe I know it all as of yet, Still learning myself. I also know I will need other who have searched the scriptures to help me along in my quest. I admire your burning desire to understand the Word God has reserved for us. Keep Seeking and I will Seek along with you.

I do have a question to ask you, (if you do not feel like posting the response, then please PM me)
You stated that you have only been an Universalist as of about 10 days now, and that the Universalist you debated with kept putting you down because of your youth, not meeting you on your level, and refusing to answer any of your challenges, instead posting only their scriptures. I ask, How then was this person able to change your outlook?
Rize, I am truly concerned. Just remember, though God loves the world, He is at the same time in Covenant with those in Christ, not the world at large. Those in Covenant have many benefits which the world at large can not obtain outside their accepting Jesus' Lordship before their "first" death. Salvation, in the "Age without End" is one of those benefits.
Keep in Christ and In Touch
Ken
 
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stumpsitting101

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Luke 16:22-31
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. KJV

"Hell" in verse 23 is as you stated should better translate Hades, the Grave or place of the dead. All dead not just certain dead. Upon further reading it becomes apparent that in this one location, there is at least two areas, which are separated form one another by a "vast gulf" which the dead of either side can not pass over.
One area is stated to be a place of torment and flames as proclaimed by the Rich Ruler. The other area Abraham's bosom, is quite the opposite. In other scripture verses, it is the place of torment, flames and an addition of worms are mentioned, this area is known as "Gehena", which is very seeming can be exegete as the area the Rich Ruler is located.
To answer your question, Yes, the Rich Ruler will at sometime be resurrected form the grave. At the same resurrection as those in Abraham's bosom, no. Those in Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise, where it is stated one of the malefactors on the cross went and all those who died in the Lord Jesus, will be resurrected in the "First Resurrection", which includes the changing of those living at His Coming, or what ever you want to label event to be (Trying not to get off topic)

Indication of The First Resurrection and another resurrection at a future time.
Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (The First Resurrection... insert mine) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV


Verse 5 stated "the rest of the dead lived not again until", so there will be another or second resurrection. But only those who are overcomers or involved in the First Resurrection will have a special Blessing and also will not be harmed in the Second Death which is the Lake of Fire.

Second Death is the casting into and residency in the location, " Lake of Fire"
Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. KJV

Who will be in the Lake of Fire, which is the second death:

Rev 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. KJV

Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. KJV

Rev 21:7-8
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. KJV

Rize, you stated that "ever and ever" would better translate "Ages of Ages", yet probably better, the "Age of Ages". Since, all the above mentioned are located in a area that is stated to be in an "Age of Ages" and there is no direct reference to another Age or Dispensation beyond this, I once again suggest, that this is where the recorded scriptures leaves them, so I feel it best that I do also.

I feel this "Age of Ages"or "ever and ever" is what is referred to in Ephesians
Eph 3:21
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
KJV

"World Without End" here again is better translated as "Age without End". I take this to mean that if the age in which the "Lake Of Fire" is in existence, and the "Age without End" are the same age, then there will be no other age for those to escape its hold and receive salvation.

2 Cor 6:2
2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) KJV

Paul recorded: There is "a time accepted", one definite age of acceptance, and also he recorded: "Now" (Today; This Age---no future age of salvation to be given) is the Day of Salvation.

Universal Salvation would be nice in the thinking of man, but it is not clearly taught in the Scriptures. This is God's government and economy not mine. I must adhere to His plan, whether I agree or not.
If you disagree, that's O.K. I do not hold it against you nor believe you to be any less a Christian nor any less my Brother.
Blessings of Our Lord upon You
Ken
 
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It appears you can't acknowledge my view without the emotion of anger. I understand. I couldn't believe it either!! How the pre-wrath position is so beautifully aligned with the totality of Scripture, that when I first read it, I was blown away, it was so fantastic!!! 


It was beyond anything -- any view pre, mid or post that I had ever seen or read about. But by golly, it fits with the prophetic events foretold by the prophets, the Lord Himself, St. Paul and Revelation!!!

I guess I had better stop now. You are getting too upset. I understand, Gracie. I have even more fantastic prophetic things to tell you regarding pre-wrath fiting with Scripture, but you would not believe that either. So why bother?
Anger? Is that bad? I waited for you to post some scripture to back up your statements, and you did not.  If your view is so 'beautifully aligned with Scripture', it should be simple to refer to at least a few. Being blown away by a doctrine written of in a book outside of the bible is not my idea of fantastic. And if you have even more fanstastic prophetic things to tell without the scripture references, you are right, i WILL NOT believe. So yeah, why bother. 
 
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Ladylove are you referring to the ONE scripture of Zech.13:18 regarding the Jews?

That is your reference to the earth being repopulated by Christians during the Millenial reign? Or the 1st resurrection being after that same reign? 

Wow, that makes it sooooooo much easier to understand now.  :eek:

My statement then still stands.  There is absolutely no scriptural basis for either repopulation nor a third resurrection.

 

 Here is another nugget of imagination:

 
The Lord takes his children away with Him for "marriage and the supper" and while that is happening the Lord is administering the "Day of the Lord" upon the rest of the earth.
So He dines with HIs bride, and at the same time pours out wrath?  Does He leave the table for this? 

Every bible i read places the marriage and supper AFTER the bowls of wrath.  Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!'" And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God." Rev.19:7-9
 
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Gracie,

Careful sweetie, your unbelief is showing in your sarcasism. Since you didn't believe the Scripture reference because all I need is one. I will not waste my time answering you further.

At least with Rize, he can discuss without bias. My compliments to him and why I prefer to discuss issues with men rather than women.

Have a good day.
 
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