Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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keras

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It will be 7 years with each year made of of 12 each 30 days months. This is what is written. How God will work that out I don't know. I have confidence He can do it.
Be assured, God will do it!
The terrible Day of the Lord's wrath will 'shake the earth's very foundations', Isaiah 13:13
Be aware and be prepared. BTW, do not expect to be raptured at this time. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
 
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Fusion77

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No, of course I do not think these all end at the same time. One will end 30 days after the other. The 1260 day count, for both the first and second half are written in stone, so to speak. They cannot be altered.

So on our calendar, how many days short of 2555 days ( 7 years on our calendar) would God's count be?
No, of course I do not think these all end at the same time. One will end 30 days after the other. The 1260 day count, for both the first and second half are written in stone, so to speak. They cannot be altered.

So on our calendar, how many days short of 2555 days ( 7 years on our calendar) would God's count be?
Okay then forget it. In Daniel 12:11 He is basically repeating the exact time frame in Daniel 12:7 but putting a number of days on it. It's just repeated with another event so we'll know. It tells us from the time the anti christ invaded and stops the sacrifice will be at least 1290 days. But if you don't see it, no biggie.

The anti christ will confirm a covenant for 7 years on a calendar. It will be the ecclesiastical Hebrew calendar. It says a week of 7 years. Again, no biggie.
 
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Fusion77

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Be assured, God will do it!
The terrible Day of the Lord's wrath will 'shake the earth's very foundations', Isaiah 13:13
Be aware and be prepared. BTW, do not expect to be raptured at this time. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
The witnesses will witness before the day of the Lord, so that's not applicable.
 
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Luke17:37

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Noah and his family didn't die. They were lifted up above the tribulation (flood). Lot fled and escaped before fire came upon them. They're not the same, different events, different stories. The wicked died because they were judged unrighteous. You need to reevaluate the bible.



And do you know why it's only mentioned in Luke 17 and nowhere else?



If the main point is not about the people being surprised, why would people be drinking, marrying and getting marry. Would you be drinking and marrying during the great tribulation after billions of people dying from war and devastating natural disasters?

Luke 17:26-37
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The destroyed people were the wicked who died in the flood, and the wicked who died in Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

The taken are the wicked. You must not have read the passages or you would have seen that.
 
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Riberra

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. Count the first 1260 days, see the abomination. count the second 1260 days, see the 7th vial.
What will be the event that for sure will mark the beginning of the first 1,260 day ?I doubt that the trumpets sounding in Heaven will be heard on the Earth.
 
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Riberra

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Dave Watchman said:
Hebrews 11
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.
If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return.
But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one.
Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.…
Touche! Good post, Dave!
You have missed something important this was NOT addressed to those still alive.
Hebrews 11
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised,

This is not about a removal to Heaven for those who are alive....but a promise made for those who DIED in Faith.
 
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Luke17:37

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This has nothing to do with what we were talking about. We're not debating the age of the earth or when it was created. Your original argument was God made herbivore T-Rexs. The bible, the book of Enoch and others reveal differently.

No, this whole thing started when I responded to Bible2+ who said that the locust creatures could have been an animal that was created or evolved millions of years ago. And I said how millions of years is not compatible with the Bible. (Death did not come before sin, as a method of creation... and all creation was cursed as result of Adam's sin. The gospel hangs on the substitutionary death for the forgiveness of sins, since death is the penalty for sin and God requires a blood sacrifice-Genesis 3:21, Leviticus 17:11, Hebrews 9:22). Then Riberra started mocking me and asking if I believed Adam and Eve lived during the dinosaurs. When I said yes, and that they were created on the same day (the sixth day), he said they must have been fast runners so they weren't eaten by T-Rex. And I said T-Rex would have been vegetarian because all animals were originally, by God's decree (as were men). God's Word does say plainly that the men and animals were originally vegetarian. So, you see, this was always about young earth creation. And my point is that it's ultimately about biblical authority. God inspired every word of the Scriptures and it is impossible for God to lie. And apparently many of you (everyone who wrote back to me on the subject) reject the clear teaching of Scripture in order to accommodate the long ages the godless require.

Genesis 1:29-31
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Men weren't allowed to eat meat until after the flood (Genesis 9:1-3). The animals probably weren't either, since they weren't eating meat on the ark (they couldn't since God only sent two of each animal kind into the ark to repopulate the earth after the flood). The extra clean animals were for a post-flood burnt offering.

In the millennial kingdom of Christ, the animals will go back to their pre-curse state of a vegetarian diet, but the serpent will still provide a reminder of the Fall of Man.

Isaiah 65:25
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the Lord.

Peter was talking about scoffers being impatience mocking when the second coming would happen, not the creation of the earth. 2 Peter 3:3-4. Peter was not writing about creation.

I said 2 Peter 3:3-9. Verse 5 and 6 are about the scoffers willingly rejecting the biblical creation account and the worldwide flood. Their rejection of these truths apparently provides a foundation for the rejection of a literal return of Christ.

2 Peter 3:3-9
3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.







.
 
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BABerean2

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Riberra

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In the millennial kingdom of Christ, the animals will go back to their pre-curse state of a vegetarian diet, but the serpent will still provide a reminder of the Fall of Man.

Isaiah 65:25
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the Lord.
Small detail Isaiah 65:17-25 describe life as it will be after the millennium on the New Earth (surface) with the creation by God of new animals and as it seem a new race of mortal humans living longer than us...

Isaiah 65:17
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Revelation 21(KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Oh, I forget, you have said in an previous post that the cycle of creation and destruction of LIFE on the Earth's SURFACE by God is Not Biblical.

2 Peter 3:3-9
3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens WERE OF OLD, and THE EARTH standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world THAT THEN EXISTED perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth WHICH ARE NOW preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Genesis 1:1 clearly state that the Heavens were created by God before the Earth. We must suppose that God created the Earth perfect right there at the moment of its creation by God mentioned in Genesis 1:1...Right ?

What have happened to the Earth to became in the condition mentioned in Genesis 1:2 ?

Genesis 1:1-2
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters
 
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Psalm3704

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Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Regarding Hebrews 12:22, note that it says "ye are come", not "ye will come", in a future, pre-trib rapture.

For Hebrews 12:22, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer figuratively to our present salvation under the New Covenant (Galatians 4:24-26, Hebrews 12:22,24).

Regarding Hebrews 12:26b, note that it can refer to an event which is still in our future, while Hebrews 12:22, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer to an event which has already been fulfilled (in a figurative, spiritual sense).

2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory . . .

The tribulation's purpose with regard to the righteous church in all nations having to suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6) could be the same as the purpose of righteous Job having to go through his suffering at the hands of Satan (Job chapters 1-2), and the purpose of, for example, the righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) having to suffer and die at the hands of Satan during a 1st century AD persecution:

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Regarding Revelation 6:17, note that the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-17) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Note that all obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

Note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 says or requires that Jesus won't at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19. And there is no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either, but it is still the same 2nd coming as Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21, there is no explicit descent to the earth, even though it is the same 2nd coming as Zechariah 14:3-5, which has no explicit white horse.

Note that Revelation 19 is Jesus' 2nd coming, which is when other passages show he will rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). At Jesus' 2nd coming, before he goes to war (Revelation 19:11-21), he will rapture (gather together) the church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:14-30), and marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-13).

Only 6 rebuttals out of 50? Not exactly a decent batting average. New batch. Try again Bible2.

*50 More Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen Before the Tribulation

1. Only when God’s PURPOSE for BOTH the Church and Israel is finished--then God SPEAKS of them TOGETHER. Revelation 19 to 22.

2. There are NO passages in either the Old or New Testament which SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the Church will go through the tribulation. (Try to find where it SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the Church will be IN the tribulation--it can’t be found!)

3. The tribulation is called THE TIME of “Jacob’s Trouble” Jeremiah 30:7. The tribulation is NEVER called the time of “The Church’s Trouble.”

4. The Church has NO PART in the first 69 weeks of Daniel’s prophecy, and it will have NO PART in the final 70th week either!

5. The GODLY REMNANT of the tribulation have descriptions and attributes upon them--THE SAME as seen upon Old Testament ISRAEL. The Church is NOT present during that time--there are NO “Church-related descriptions” upon tribulation saints.

6. THE Pre-Trib view (UNLIKE Mid-Trib, Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath), does NOT CONFUSE terms like “elect” and “saints” OF THE TRIBULATION with the Church. Terms like CHURCH and IN CHRIST apply ONLY to those who are IN the BODY OF CHRIST in THIS AGE, and these terms are NEVER found in passages which relate to the tribulation.

7. Israel is NOT cut-off from the COVENANTS that God gave them. But blindness (in part) will be their destiny UNTIL the Church is complete. Acts 15:14-16. Romans 11:1 and Romans 11:25-27.

8. Many prophecies have the characteristic of showing a LOCAL fulfillment (AT or NEAR the time when it was given), then they JUMP AHEAD to the TIME OF THE END--when they are COMPLETELY fulfilled.

9. These are known as PARTIAL FULFILLMENT'S or DUAL FULFILLMENT'S--which are NOTHING UNUSUAL in the scripture.

10. EXAMPLE ONE: In Daniel 11:1-45, the prophecy discusses IN DETAIL the Greek Empire, Alexander the Great, the breaking of the Greek Empire into four parts, wars between kings of the south (Egypt, the Ptolemies) and kings of the north (Syria, the Seleucids), and the arrival of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (a powerful TYPE of the Antichrist). In the middle of showing THE WORK of Antiochus Epiphanes, the prophecy SKIPS to THE END, to focus upon the “ultimate antichrist” (from verses Daniel 11:36-45).

11. EXAMPLE TWO: When Jesus BEGAN His ministry, He read from the prophecy of Isaiah, quoting UP TO the phrase “the acceptable year of the Lord.” And he closed the book. Jesus stopped reading in the middle of a sentence, because THE REMAINDER of that passage will be fulfilled at the time of THE END, in the tribulation--beginning with “and the day of vengeance of our God.” Luke 4:18-19. Isaiah 61:1-3.

12. EXAMPLE THREE: In Daniel 9:24, the prophet starts showing 70 weeks which are determined upon Israel. It’s fulfilled right up to A SPECIFIC DAY--when Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem, allowing the people to declare Him as King: “Blessed be the King Who comes in the name of the Lord.” (Luke 19:38, Palm Sunday). Then Messiah was CUT OFF (crucified), just like Daniel prophesied. Jesus KNEW what was DECREED to occur, because He lamented in Luke 19:42 --“If you (Israel) had known, even you, at least in THIS YOUR DAY, the things which belong unto your peace! But NOW they are HID from your eyes.” (The fulfillment of Daniel 9:26 is AN EXACT amount of 173,880 days--that scholars in Israel should have KNOWN--from THE TIME of the DECREE to rebuild Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity until PALM SUNDAY! “THIS YOUR DAY” (for Israel) was Nisan 10--THE DAY when the nation CHOSE their LAMBS for Passover. The EXACT DAY in history was April 6, 32 A.D.--when Jesus, the TRUE LAMB OF GOD, entered Jerusalem on the donkey.) Then He was CUT OFF. The REMAINDER of Daniel’s prophecy, in verse Daniel 9:27, JUMPS to THE END (after the parenthetical AGE of THE CHURCH is inserted). After the Church is COMPLETE, and TAKEN to HEAVEN in the Pre-Trib Rapture, the LAST SEVEN YEARS of Israel’s prophecy will be fulfilled during the tribulation.

13. In Matthew 24:36-42 and Luke 17:26-27, we see the EVENTS (plural) of the Church’s Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus likened to the days of Noah. The KEY thing to see, is that, like in the “days of Noah,” people on earth will be doing BUSINESS AS USUAL--eating and drinking, marrying, giving in marriage--right up to THE DAY that Noah entered the ARK--his shelter from God’s judgment. Likewise, the Church is TAKEN to SAFETY in the Pre-Trib Rapture--then THE WORLD will suffer God’s judgment.

14. The world of Noah’s time was exceedingly wicked and violent, ripe for judgment. The world, at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, will be exceedingly wicked and violent, ripe for judgment. 2 Timothy 1:1-3. 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

15. Noah’s ark was LIFTED ABOVE the JUDGMENT, and ALL within the ARK were KEPT SAFE and were NOT judged. So likewise, the Church will be LIFTED ABOVE the judgment, and take to heaven, in our ARK, Jesus, and will NOT suffer WRATH.

16. The ARK had only ONE DOOR. Jesus is the ONLY DOOR through which people may come to God and BE SAVED from the HIS WRATH. John 14:6.

17. Noah and the ark CAN be pictured as Israel kept safe THROUGH the JUDGMENT, but that interpretation does NOT take into account that TWO-THIRDS of Israel will PERISH in the tribulation’s judgment. Zechariah 13:9. NOBODY perished on Noah’s ark! NOBODY in the true Church will perish in the tribulation.

18. In Luke 17:28-30, we see the EVENTS (plural) of the Church’s Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus likened to the days of Lot. Again, the KEY thing to see, is that, like in the “days of Lot,” people in Sodom were conducting BUSINESS AS USUAL. They ate and drank, bought and sold, planted and built--right up to THE DAY that the FIRE hit Sodom. God--(in answer to Abraham, who asked in Genesis 18:1-33 ---“Will You destroy the righteous with the wicked?”)--made sure Lot, a righteous man, was removed from Sodom BEFORE the judgment. God’s PLAIN ANSWER--I will NOT cast the righteous into a time of judgment! Likewise, when the true Church is TAKEN to SAFETY in the Pre-Trib Rapture, THE WICKED WORLD will suffer God’s judgment.

19. The city of Lot was exceedingly wicked. Righteous Lot was VEXED by what occurred around him, which is described in Genesis 19:1-38 as blatant, “in your face,” homosexuality. 2 Peter 2:6-9 says that the Lord KNOWS HOW to DELIVER the RIGHTEOUS, and RESERVE THE UNRIGHTEOUS for His day of judgment. The world, prior to the Pre-Trib Rapture, will also show the increase of homosexuality, and like Sodom, will be sorely judged. The true Church, like righteous Lot, will be REMOVED BEFORE the judgment hits (Pre-Trib).

20. In Genesis 19:16, we see how Lot lingered. The angels, who were sent to REMOVE Lot from Sodom, LAID HOLD upon Lot’s hand, and also LAID HOLD of Lot’s wife and daughters. The angels BROUGHT them FORTH and SET them outside the city BEFORE the fire could fall. In the ACTION of LAID HOLD, we see that the angels SEIZED Lot and his family BY FORCE to REMOVED them--the EXACT DEFINITION for “Rapture.” Likewise, BEFORE the tribulation, the true Church will be “seized by force and removed”--THEN the tribulation will come.

21. In Genesis 19:22, we see the angel tell Lot to “Haste you, ESCAPE”--(to the small town of Zoar). The angel added (and this is important)--“I CANNOT do anything”--(in judgment) UNTIL you are OUT OF THIS PLACE! Likewise, when God’s WRATH of the tribulation approaches, the judgment CANNOT come UNTIL the true Church is TAKEN out of the earth in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

22. In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, we see that the tribulation (the day of the Lord) will come like a thief in the night, when people are saying, “Peace and safety,” and, to the world’s surprise (and horror) “sudden destruction” will befall them. But the true Church will NOT be caught in it.

23. The world will think “peace and safety” is coming. They think by man’s wisdom, society will grow better and better. Do we hear this today? You bet!

24. The tribulation judgment will HIT, bringing “sudden destruction.” The unrighteous world will NOT ESCAPE. The true Church, however, will NOT be overtaken in that time. We true Christians (BORN-AGAIN, REGENERATED, INDWELLED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, MADE NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST), will obtain SALVATION (the deliverance) from that time of WRATH, and we (whether having died in Jesus--or are alive at the time) will LIVE TOGETHER with Jesus (in heaven in the MANSIONS He’s prepared for us). The pattern of being TAKEN to SAFETY is the SAME throughout scripture--BEFORE God’s judgments come! The Church is promised a Pre-Trib Rapture. Do you believe it?

25. The Apostle Paul’s exhortation for the Church to be COMFORTED by “the coming of the Lord” (in 1 Thessalonians 4:18) can ONLY BE TRUE in the CONTEXT of a Pre-Trib Rapture. In the Post-Tribulation view, the Lord’s coming is a FEARSOME thing to be dreaded, because of EXPECTING years of horrendous judgments. There’s NO COMFORT in teaching that the Church will go through the tribulation.

26. We, the true Church are told to LOOK FOR the “glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”Titus 2:13. IF other prophetic events MUST happen BEFORE Jesus can appear, that verse is foolish and doesn’t make sense.

27. We are to PURIFY OURSELVES in view of Jesus’ soon appearing (1 John 3:2-3). IF His coming is NOT IMMINENT, then that passage is meaningless, too. (People can think, “If He’s NOT going to appear soon, then why bother with being pure?--let’s do what we want for a while.”) Our BLESSED HOPE in the PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, and it’s IMMINENCE, keeps us on our toes, spiritually.

28. The Church is told to LOOK ONLY for “the coming of Christ” in the Rapture (often called “His appearing”): IF we must LOOK for other prophecies FIRST, that DOESN’T make sense either. Titus 2:13

29. The Church is told TO ONLY LOOK for the coming of Jesus in the Rapture: It is ISRAEL and the tribulation saints who must LOOK for SIGNS of the Second Coming, and who must ENDURE until the end of the tribulation.

30. People will be CONFUSED about Jesus’ coming FOR His Church, if they do NOT understand the TRUE NATURE of the Church as a UNIQUE BODY of God’s people, A BRIDE for Jesus.

31. In the Revelation, WRATH is seen 10 times. Revelation 6:16, Revelation 6:17, Revelation 11:18,Revelation 14:10, Revelation 14:19, Revelation 15:1, Revelation 15:7, Revelation 16:1, Revelation 16:19, andRevelation 19:15. The Church is “not appointed to wrath.” Romans 5:1 and Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and Revelation 3:10. The Church, therefore, CANNOT enter into the “great day of God’s wrath.”

32. In Revelation 3:10, a FAITHFUL and TRUE Church is promised to be KEPT OUT OF the TIME of TEMPTATION which shall COME UPON the WHOLE WORLD to TRY them who DWELL UPON THE EARTH. This TEMPTATION is the EXPERIENCE of EVIL, ADVERSITY, and EXTREME TROUBLE. Jesus TOLD us to PRAY, “and lead us NOT into TEMPTATION, but DELIVER us from EVIL.” While this is correctly interpreted to mean protection from “ordinary everyday troubles” we face on this earth, it can also have an extended meaning. “TEMPTATION” is the VERY SAME GREEK WORD as seen in Revelation 3:10 --defined as that TIME of THE WORST EVIL which has ever happened on the earth (Matthew 24:21-22). Why would Jesus ask us to PRAY to be DELIVERED from that EVIL, if there were NO ESCAPE possible? Compare toLuke 21:36. There is INDEED a DELIVERANCE available FROM the tribulation (the MOST AWFUL TEMPTATION EVER)--and it’s called the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church!

33. In 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 we see that God will REPAY TRIBULATION upon the ones who have TROUBLED the Church. WHILE that RECOMPENSE occurs, the Church will BE AT REST. The Church will receive a Pre-Tribulation rapture!

34. The Church will NOT be “overtaken by the Day of the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9. The “day of the Lord” is another phrase which defines the tribulation. The Church will NOT be caught in it.

35. The believer in Jesus, who has prayed to accept Him, WILL be found WORTHY to ESCAPE the tribulation. Luke 21:36.

36. In Zepaniah 2:1-3, we see an exhortation from God to His people, which parallels THE ATTITUDE we’re to have BEFORE the tribulation arrives. BEFORE the decree comes forth (the “peace covenant” with the antichrist which STARTS the “tribulation”), BEFORE the FIERCE ANGER of the Lord comes--DO THIS! Seek the Lord in righteousness and meekness. WHY? So that we will BE HID in THE DAY of the Lord’s anger--another reference to a Pre-Trib Rapture.

37. It’s God’s character to DELIVER His own (righteous ones) from His judgments. Enoch, Noah, Lot, and Rahab are a few. The judgment could NOT happen to Sodom until Lot was TAKEN OUT OF THERE. So also, the tribulation CANNOT happen UNTIL the Church is TAKEN OUT OF THE WORLD in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Compare Luke 17:28-30 to Genesis 19:15-22 --paying special attention the verses 16 and 22.

38. It’s clear from scripture that there’s an INTERVAL OF TIME between the translation of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus. John 14:3. Isaiah 26:20.

39. ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture does NOT DIVIDE the Church (Christ’s Body) on a WORKS BASED PRINCIPLE, as does the Partial Rapture. The Pre-Trib Rapture is the GRAND FINALE to our great SALVATION--by GRACE ALONE!

40. The scriptures are FIRM that the Church is UNDIVIDED--we are ALL members of ONE BODY in Jesus. (It’s in this PRESENT world that the Church is indeed divided by the CONTINUING OLD FLESH NATURE of believers--which results in dissensions and splits. When the Church is GLORIFIED at the Rapture, there will be no more fleshly divisions.)

41. The Holy Spirit is RESTRAINER of evil in this world. He CANNOT be taken out as prophesied UNLESS THE CHURCH (which is INDWELLED by Him), is taken out, too. The RESTRAINER is the Spirit-filled Church.2 Thessalonians 2:5-8.

42. The Holy Spirit’s RESTRAINING work MUST be removed BEFORE the “lawless one” is revealed. (The tribulation BEGINS with the SIGNING OF A COVENANT with ISRAEL--which STARTS the 7 years of tribulation. That act REVEALS the antichrist. So therefore, the Church must be Raptured BEFORE the tribulation begins.) The true Church will NOT see the antichrist revealed.

43. While the tribulation occurs on earth, the antichrist will overcome (and PREVAIL AGAINST) the tribulation saints. Revelation 13:7. But for the Church, the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against us, which PROVES that “the saints” of the tribulation CANNOT be the Church. The Church OVERCOMES by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 16:18. Romans 12:21. 1 John 2:13-14. 1 John 5:4-5. Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:11,Revelation 2:17, Revelation 2:26, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 3:12, and Revelation 3:21. That’s LOTS of OVERCOMING for the Church! This PROVES the Rapture MUST be Pre-Trib.

44. In Daniel 7:21 and Daniel 7:25, the little horn (antichrist) made war with the saints and PREVAILED AGAINST them, plus the antichrist will speak great words against the most high and shall WEAR OUT the saints. Again, for the Church, the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against us (or overcome us). Again, the Church CANNOT be the saints in the tribulation who are PREVAILED AGAINST, and OVERCOME! Again, this PROVES the Rapture MUST be Pre-Trib.

45. The Church is called THE BRIDE of Christ. The comparison to marriage and Christ and His Church is made in Ephesians 5:22-33, and especially seen in verses Ephesians 5:29-32.

46. The WEDDING of Jesus and His Church follows the Jewish model. Remember, Jesus CAME to the Jews, God in the flesh of a man through a JEWISH LINEAGE.

47. In John 14:1-3 (where the Rapture of the Church is PROMISED), the structure of the Jewish wedding ceremony is HEAVILY IMPLIED. “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” “I GO and PREPARE a place for you.” “I will come again and receive you unto Myself…”

48. In the Jewish wedding, the groom INITIATES an AGREEMENT to marry a woman with the bride’s father. The groom PAYS A PRICE for his bride (the mohar). Jesus PAID THE PRICE for His Church with His own precious blood.

49. Once the agreement for the marriage is made and the price is paid, the marriage covenant is established. The young man and woman are considered as husband and wife, even though they have not yet lived together. From the payment of the mohar the bride is DECLARED to be CONSECRATED or SANCTIFIED--(“set apart” for her groom). As a SYMBOL of that CONSECRATION, the groom and bride drink a cup of wine over which the betrothal is announced. The Church is SET APART and SANCTIFIED unto Jesus. IN REMEMBRANCE OF THE PRICE that Jesus paid, the Church drinks the cup of communion wine.

50. After the marriage covenant is established, the groom leaves his bride at her home. He RETURNS to the HOME of his FATHER, where he will remain for about 12 months. After Jesus paid the price with His blood, HE RETURNED TO HIS FATHER’S HOUSE IN HEAVEN. The Church is LEFT AT HER HOME (a temporary place) upon the earth.







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Psalm3704

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There is no passage that says this.

Than where would they go after being resurrected if not to heaven? Land of the Lost as roaming undeads?

Think!!! Think!!! Think hard!!!

Where would Jesus send the saints after resurrecting them in Matthew 27:52-53?

Matthew 27:52-53
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Here's a hint. Jesus and John the Baptist were preaching "Repent! For the kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" Matthew 4:17, Matthew 3:2. Where do you think Jesus was planning to send people, those willing to repent?

There is no passage that says this either. (And Jesus proved He defeated death when He rose from the dead!)

Yes there is. You can deny it all you want but there's scriptural evidence revealing Christ descended into hell, defeated death there and obtained the keys to the gates of hell. Have you ever read the bible before where you understood anything beyond Luke 17:37?

Ephesians 4:9-10
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Revelations 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Acts 2:22-24
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

Acts 2:31-32
31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.


Would you address your wife or your mother or your daughter the way you address me? (I am not expecting an answer.)

Why would I need to? They don't make comments like "there's no passage showing Jesus descended to hell" or "those resurrected did not immediately go to heaven."

When you stop throwing nonsense my way, than I can say "good job" instead.




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Touche! Good post, Dave!
The Bible passage of Hebrews 11:13-16 does not prove a rapture to heaven for any living person.
It is about those dead saints who have died without experiencing God's promises.
The City God has prepared, is the same one spoken of in John 14:1-3 and described in Revelation 21, will come down to earth after the Millennium. No one will live in it in heaven, that idea isn't in scripture and is just a fanciful dream of those who believe in the false rapture theory.
I notice that you; Lamad, have a lot to say about events during the last seven years. Why does it concern you, if you believe you won't be here for that period?
 
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Psalm3704

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Based on your "logic" the trump of God that will sound the rising of those who are dead in Christ and our caught up to meet Jesus in the air that Paul talk about to the Thessalonians cannot be the Last Trump that Paul is talking about to the Corinthians..... Thus by your "logic" you are implying that the changing into immortality of the living believers will not happen at the same time that the rising of those who have died in Christ and our caught up to meet Jesus in the air...Is that right ?

Nope, not even close. Nice try and still no cigar!

Prove us with scripture rather than by your speculative "logic" that Jesus will come BEFORE the Tribulation with a sound of a trumpet to rise the dead in Christ and change the living into immortality and take them together to the Third Heaven where God reside ---- Rather than being taken to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air in the First Heaven at His Coming after the Tribulation... Good luck. LOL !

You still haven't even shown me where does the bible say there's more than one trump of God. Why don't you take care of this question first before making requests.






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Psalm3704

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In the millennial kingdom of Christ, the animals will go back to their pre-curse state of a vegetarian diet, but the serpent will still provide a reminder of the Fall of Man.

Isaiah 65:25
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the Lord.

More errors.

That's only on Mount Zion, the place where Christ will reign from within Ezekiel's Temple overlooking Jerusalem, NOT everywhere else in the world. Read the last two sentence of Isaiah 65:25: ""They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,” Says the Lord.""


And we can still eat meat during the millennium.

Zechariah 14:16-21 ESV
16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem the Feast of Booths. 17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship there will be no rain on them. 18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the Lord afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths. 19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

20 And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “Holy to the Lord.” And the pots in the house of the Lord shall be as the bowls before the altar. 21 And every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holy to the Lord of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the meat of the sacrifice in them. And in the house of the Lord of hosts on that day.






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Psalm3704

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So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The destroyed people were the wicked who died in the flood, and the wicked who died in Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

The taken are the wicked. You must not have read the passages or you would have seen that.

Where does it say those in Matthew 24:37-41 are taken to wherever the bodies and vultures gathered? You've falsely twisted Matthew 24:37-41 into Luke 17:37....something you seem to love to promote.

You are absolutely clueless of what the days of Noah and days of Lot are. Here's a hint if you can figure it out. Days of Noah is the rapture for the church and the trigger for the 7 year tribulation, (while millions of people suddenly vanished, the whole world will know they've just entered into the tribulation). Days of Lot is for the Israelites. When Jerusalem gets nuked, they will flee as in the days of Lot knowing they must run for their lives. All of Israel will know it's the time of Jacob's Trouble. Days of Noah is salvation for the church and the trigger for the tribulation to the world for 7 years. Days of Lot is the trigger for Time of Jacob's Trouble (Israel's tribulation for 3.5 years).

Everyone was unaware when their time of tribulation began as they were eating, drinking and marrying. Days of Noah happens at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation coming upon them unexpectedly. Days of Lot begins in the middle of the tribulation for Israel, their time of tribulation: Jacob's Trouble coming at them unexpectedly.

Everyone in the world are unaware the tribulation will came upon them until the days of Noah happen (rapture). When the rapture hits, everyone in the world will know the tribulation began as the righteous are taken away (raptured) just as Noah was taken above the flood to safety.

Everyone in Israel are unaware the tribulation will came upon them until the abomination of desolation hits and they will flee Judea just as Lot fled Sodom when fire came upon them, as when Jerusalem will also be nuked in the middle of the tribulation, Zechariah 14:12, Isaiah 29. Lot fled and escaped (the 144,000 will flee and also escape), the wicked in Jerusalem are "taken out of away" Matthew 13:39-42 (dead from being nuked)! The righteous (Lot and the 144,000) fled and are left alive. When the AoD hits in Jerusalem, all of Israel will know their time of tribulation just began.

You're preaching something you have absolutely no idea what they are, promoting self theories based solely on speculations, while at the same time, ignoring other parts of the bible that can reveal what those days are. Your whole idea of taken this....taken that...then here...taken there just falls apart at the seem.

You don't have to reply and I don't expect you to either.









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iamlamad said in post 5687:

Just explain to us HOW you are going to get to the marriage.

Christians will get to the marriage by the rapture, at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Mark 13:26-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). For note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).
 
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Postvieww said in post 5719:

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Note that 2 Timothy 4:1 can include both of the future final-judgments. For Jesus will finally-judge only the church immediately at his future appearing (2nd coming) (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27, Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48), while the unsaved won't be finally-judged until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). And the great white throne judgment can be thought of as the 3rd and final stage of the physical aspect of Jesus' kingdom, the 1st stage being Jesus' post-2nd-coming, 1,000-year reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21), and the 2nd stage being after the 1,000 years, when the Gog/Magog rebellion, its defeat, and then an at-least 7-year aftermath will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Ezekiel 39:9b).

Postvieww said in post 5719:

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

In Revelation 10:7, "finished" in the original Greek is "teleo" (G5055), which can mean "performed" (Luke 2:39). Revelation 10:7 means that the prophetic writings regarding the tribulation will finish being performed at the 7th trumpet of the tribulation. For out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the final stage of the tribulation, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

In Revelation 10:7, the "mystery" is currently known by the church, just as, for example, the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is currently known by the church. For the mystery in Revelation 10:7 has already been "declared to his servants the prophets" (Revelation 10:7), just as the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is already "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Romans 16:26).

Postvieww said in post 5719:

1 Corin 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Note that the "end" in 1 Corinthians 15:24 will be at the end of all the future, never-fulfilled events of Revelation 19:7 to 20:15. For 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't mean that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming. For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then he must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Then he must physically resurrect and judge the unsaved of all times, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then will he have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a new heaven (a new 1st heaven/sky/atmosphere) and a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).
 
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Hoghead1 said in post 5767:

I don't agree, Bible2, that original sin is implied in the Genesis story.

Romans 5:19a is the doctrine of original sin, which could be based on everyone having been in some way in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that everyone in some way committed sin when Adam sinned, just as Levi had been in some way in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham gave a tithe to Melchisedec, so that Levi in some way gave a tithe to Melchisedec when Abraham did (Hebrews 7:9-10).

Because of original sin, we are guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5). So even as babies we are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). But original sin isn't our only guiltiness before God, for we have all as individuals committed our own sins by our own free will (Romans 3:23,9-12). No one can master sin (Genesis 4:7b), or put to death the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:24), without the miraculous help of God's Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13b), who is given to saved people (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

If original sin is genetic, could it be passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?
 
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Dave Watchman said in post 5790:

Because of the operation of the Jubilee calendar both of the prophetic time periods from Revelation 12 AND the time period from Daniel 7 were 1260 YEARS.

Regarding the 42 months, 1,260 days, and "a time, and times, and half a time", they are all the same time period in the prophecies of Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Daniel 7:25, and Daniel 12:7. They will be 1,260 literal days, just as, for example, the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Luke 9:22 and Luke 18:33 were literal days, and the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Genesis 40:13 and Genesis 40:19 were literal days, and the 70 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Jeremiah 25:11-12 (Daniel 9:2) were literal years (Zechariah 7:5).

The literal 1,260-day time period will be the time of the Antichrist's Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled, not even during a past time period of 1,260 years, as historicism mistakenly claims. But these details must be fulfilled (Revelation 1:1). So they will be fulfilled in our future, after the also-never-fulfilled details of Revelation chapters 6 to 10 are fulfilled in our future.

Dave Watchman said in post 5790:

He received a mortal wound, but it's almost healed.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

This could have a dual meaning. It could refer to the revival of a dead, past empire, i.e. one of the 7 heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1). And at the same time it could apply, along with Revelation 13:14b, to the revival of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) after he dies from a head wound (probably in an assassination attempt).

Regarding the revival of an assassinated Antichrist, the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) could be an android image of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) which the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could cause to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so that the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.

Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, which appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think that the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.

In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma: G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way that this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of supercomputers running advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of neural networks imprinted with the Antichrist's brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer and can't tell whether it has consciousness or not, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's, for it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear to be omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world that it is not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: he could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his machine body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically-everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could just be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And in order to make it easy for everyone in the world to be able to see the image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every smartphone, television, computer, GPS navigation system, and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a computer-generated image on each individual's smartphone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives, for it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they post on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.

And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's smartphone at set times each day to be worshipped. And smartphones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged in order to determine the exact location of the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's smartphone and know exactly where everyone is.

Also, smartphones contain cameras and microphones, which can be remotely opened secretly in order to see and hear what is going on around the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's smartphone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand that the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect his noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of his exact location, and order the officers to arrest him for blasphemy and treason. He could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (i.e. in a brainwashing camp, or through physical torture, if necessary), but if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.

Huge beheading structures could be built, by which 20 "traitors" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a large guillotine blade, which could start out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it is released it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U" and continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This all could happen so quickly that it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out in unison for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions and computers.

Also, immediately after the show, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What is left of the bodies could then be stuffed into shipping containers, which, once full, could be painted black and stacked like stones into a gigantic, Black Pyramid of Death, which could eventually reach some 30 stories high and contain tens of millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the Pyramid which will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is that he didn't, for he created Adam and Eve immortal; it wasn't until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to saved humans through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23. Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the Pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom, love death: Proverbs 8:36b.)

Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center in which everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "Be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our Great Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all of their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", it could be that some people in each group will start to really get into the evening worship sessions, and even begin to (in their words) "Truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"

For example, as a worshipper named Mary, a housewife with two little children, is bowing down before the image of the Antichrist, he could speak forth to her "Mary! Mary! My beloved handmaid! You are so precious to me, my love. You so faithfully take care of dear little Johnnie and Michelle, whom I have entrusted to you, that you might raise them up to become My servants and faithful worshippers, just as you are. How I love thee, my Mary. How I cherish thee, my precious dove!". And poor Mary could begin to cry with happiness over her dear Lord's kind words to her, not realizing that they are merely the concoction of some artificial-intelligence program running in some supercomputer down in the basement of some government building.

Also, the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer, and the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up his own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
 
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