Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Douggg

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Or we can just go with what God says . The covenant will be broken in the middle (1/2) part of the week. 3.5 plus 3.5 = 7
Your child is playing in the middle of the street. But not 20 feet from one curb, and 20 feet from the other curb. He is in the middle part of the street.

Just drop the 3 1/2 years.
 
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Fusion77

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Your child is out playing in the street. You shout out the front door - get out of the middle of the street! He looks back at you and says I am more than a foot off the middle (he is not on the exact equal distance from the curb on both sides middle).

Do you accept his argument, by what you meant by middle of the street?

3.5 years is not a biblical term. Half of 7years in the terms given is 1260 days. So the 7 years represent 2520 days. 3.5 years is not part of the picture.

Thus, it is possible to build a timeline from day 1 to day 2520.
You can try and rationize it but 1/2 part of 7 is 3.5. That's what the original always says with that Hebrew word. 1/2 part.
The seven years is 2520 days - work with that.

The 1290 days, the 1260 days, the 1335 days, the 3 1/2 days ... where those fit on a 2520 day timeline.
The seven years is 2520 days - work with that.

The 1290 days, the 1260 days, the 1335 days, the 3 1/2 days ... where those fit on a 2520 day timeline.
7 years wouldn't be 2520 either never would be. The least it could be is 354X5 + 384x2 2538! That's the LEAST number of days possible in a 7 year period.It doesn't add up.
 
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Fusion77

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You can try and rationize it but 1/2 part of 7 is 3.5. That's what the original always says with that Hebrew word. 1/2 part.


7 years wouldn't be 2520 either never would be. The least it could be is 354X5 + 384x2 2538! That's the LEAST number of days possible in a 7 year period.It doesn't add up.
I don't even think that would ever be possible.
 
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Douggg

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You can try and rationize it but 1/2 part of 7 is 3.5. That's what the original always says with that Hebrew word. 1/2 part.
It's 1/2 part of a week. The week in days is 2520 days, as the other timeframes given are in days - not years or fractions of years.

You are the one rationalizing 3.5 years, not me.
 
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Douggg

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7 years wouldn't be 2520 either never would be. The least it could be is 354X5 + 384x2 2538! That's the LEAST number of days possible in a 7 year period.It doesn't add up.
I have no idea where you are coming up with 354 and 384. The timeline as presented utilizes days for the 1290 days, the 1260 days, the 1335 days, the 3 1/2 days. The full week is 2520 days for a timeline.

There is no way to build a timeline that integrates the leap years because no one knows when the 7 years will start exactly, a calendar date.
 
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BABerean2

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Just explain to us HOW you are going to get to the marriage.

It is not about what I can do to get there.

It is not about how much of the Holy Spirit I claim to have.

It is not about my understanding of end-time events.



Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.




Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.




Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

It is by faith in what He has already done for me at the Cross.

I am as guilty as any man has ever been.

However, my Judge has already purchased me with His Blood.

My Brothers and Sisters may attempt to condemn me for not agreeing with John Darby's doctrine, but Christ loves me in the very same way that He loves you.

.

 
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keras

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I don't even think that would ever be possible.
It is possible for the 1260 days to equal 42 months and 3.5 years.
At the next prophesied event, the Sixth Seal, there will be a worldwide disaster, with cosmic effects. These effects are described in many prophesies: Hebrews 12:26, Haggai 2:21, Isaiah 13:13, etc.
The earth will be moved out of her place.... This must result in some changes to our orbit, speeding it up by 5.24 days, making the time prophesies in Daniel and Revelation become correct.
Wait for the Day when the Lord stands up and judges the nations....... Zephaniah 3:8
 
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Fusion77

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I have no idea where you are coming up with 354 and 384. The timeline as presented utilizes days for the 1290 days, the 1260 days, the 1335 days, the 3 1/2 days. The full week is 2520 days for a timeline.

There is no way to build a timeline that integrates the leap years because no one knows when the 7 years will start exactly, a calendar date.
It's because an average Hebrew year has 354-355 days in it. A leap year has 384-385 days in it. A 7 year period would have to have 2 maybe even 3 leap years in it. 2538 is the least number of days that could be in a 7 year period. The absolute LEAST. Are you saying that the week is not a 7 year period.
 
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Fusion77

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It is possible for the 1260 days to equal 42 months and 3.5 years.
At the next prophesied event, the Sixth Seal, there will be a worldwide disaster, with cosmic effects. These effects are described in many prophesies: Hebrews 12:26, Haggai 2:21, Isaiah 13:13, etc.
The earth will be moved out of her place.... This must result in some changes to our orbit, speeding it up by 5.24 days, making the time prophesies in Daniel and Revelation become correct.
Wait for the Day when the Lord stands up and judges the nations....... Zephaniah 3:8
Yes, Haggai 2:21 is about to happen. it is actually not the day of the Lord but will be a Great War. It is possible, but HIGHLY unlikely. The thing is most people are confused by Revelation. Look, we'll know a lot more after the war in Haggai 2:21. Its coming soon too.
 
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Fusion77

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I have no idea where you are coming up with 354 and 384. The timeline as presented utilizes days for the 1290 days, the 1260 days, the 1335 days, the 3 1/2 days. The full week is 2520 days for a timeline.

There is no way to build a timeline that integrates the leap years because no one knows when the 7 years will start exactly, a calendar date.
Are you saying that the week isn't exactly a 7 year period?
 
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Fusion77

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I have no idea where you are coming up with 354 and 384. The timeline as presented utilizes days for the 1290 days, the 1260 days, the 1335 days, the 3 1/2 days. The full week is 2520 days for a timeline.

There is no way to build a timeline that integrates the leap years because no one knows when the 7 years will start exactly, a calendar date.
Do you understand a 7 year period would be either 2538 days of 2568 days, according to the Hebrew calendar. Or within 2 days of that. 2520 days doesn't add up. A 7 year period would ALWAYS be more that that 2520, whether it's about 20 or about 50, it will always be more. Is the week exactly a 7 year period? Yes it is!
 
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Fusion77

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It is possible for the 1260 days to equal 42 months and 3.5 years.
At the next prophesied event, the Sixth Seal, there will be a worldwide disaster, with cosmic effects. These effects are described in many prophesies: Hebrews 12:26, Haggai 2:21, Isaiah 13:13, etc.
The earth will be moved out of her place.... This must result in some changes to our orbit, speeding it up by 5.24 days, making the time prophesies in Daniel and Revelation become correct.
Wait for the Day when the Lord stands up and judges the nations....... Zephaniah 3:8
You've got to understand Zerubbabel in Haggai 2 and Zechariah 4 is a type of the witness. The message in Haggai 2:20 has gone forth. On the 24th day of the 9th month our year 2015, which was the first day of Chanukah, which was the first day of th feast of dedication, which was 12/06/2015. Read Haggai 2:20-23 the Lord has just spoken this.
 
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iamlamad

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Those verses are looking at the conclusion to history. They are not pinpointing pretrib, postrib, midtrib the time of the rapture/resurrection in 1thessalonian4:13-18

There will be judgment of the saints for rewards. There will be judgment of the unsaved for rejecting Jesus. There will be judgment of them who had never heard the gospel. But not at one setting.
Thanks. I could not have said it better.
 
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iamlamad

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Not hardly. The transgression of desolation has to be before the abomination of desolation is made. The image is to be made 1335 days before the day Jesus returns to end the 7 years. Which the image AOD lands on day 1185.
You must prove this theory by scripture. Lay it out for us WHY this must be truth. Frankly I have never seen it.
 
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iamlamad

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The dragon represents satan you're seeing his fall, during the rebellion. Isaiah 14:12 son of the morning star. The angels are stars if heaven, these are fallen stars (angels). taking 1/3 of the angels to their fall.
Agreed. But those five verses are more about what the dragon did to kill Jesus as a child, then about how the dragon got to be there. God just chose to include that detail.
 
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Luke17:37

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Jesus' main point was everyone was unaware of what they were about to face until it came upon them: Matthew 24 hit them with a flood, Luke 17 hit them with fire from the sky. They were not the same cataclysmic event.



.
Jesus' reference to the flood of Noah's day is in both passages. Luke's gospel says, "destroyed them all," and Matthew's gospel says, "took them all away." Afterwards, Jesus discusses the taken and the left, taken and left, taken and left at His return.

The reference to Lot only happens in Luke, but means the same thing: the people in Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed when fire and brimstone reigned down from heaven.

You think the main point is that people are surprised. I think the main point is that people are destroyed. The reason why I believe this is because of Jesus' frequent use of the word "taken"--which, in context, refers to the destruction of the wicked.
 
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Luke17:37

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Note that the Bible doesn't require that the earth is only 6,000 years old. All it requires is that Adam was created about 6,000 years ago. For various scriptures make it possible to estimate the year BC that Adam (as opposed to the earth) was created, by working back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18).

And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10 and Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). And Enoch was born when his father Jared was 162 (Genesis 5:18). And Jared was born when his father Mahalaleel was 65 (Genesis 5:15). And Mahalaleel was born when his father Cainan was 70 (Genesis 5:12). And Cainan was born when his father Enos was 90 (Genesis 5:9). And Enos was born when his father Seth was 105 (Genesis 5:6). And Seth was born when his father Adam was 130 (Genesis 5:3).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Adam was created about 4114 BC. This lines up with the fact that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC. If Adam was created about 4114 BC, this means that 6,000 years since Adam's creation were completed back at the end of about 1886 AD, and that the 7th millennium began about 1887 AD. (But this doesn't mean that the millennium of Revelation 20:4-6 has started yet.) Also, it is curious that the next year (1888 AD) Blavatsky published her book (The Secret Doctrine) referring to the "New Age". Also, it is curious that the Mayan calendar begins in 3114 BC, exactly 1,000 years after 4114 BC. Also, the numbers of years in the scriptures referenced above show that Abraham (who was first promised the land of Israel by God: Exodus 32:13) was born about 1,948 years after Adam's creation, just as the modern state of Israel was established in 1948 AD.

-

Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC (subsequent to Adam's creation about 4114 BC), by "civilization" is meant "the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained" (Webster's, a print-version). "The 4th millennium BC saw major changes in human culture. It marked the beginning of the Bronze Age and the invention of writing, which played a major role in starting recorded history. The city states of Sumer and the kingdom of Egypt were established and grew to prominence" (Wikipedia -- 4th millennium BC).

Regarding "civilization" being defined by Oxford Dictionaries as the "most advanced" stage of human social development and organization, our current human civilization (4th millennium BC to the present) is the most advanced stage of human social development and organization, compared to all known prehistoric (pre-4th millennium BC) stages.

-

Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC, by "current" is meant that civilization which began in the 4th millennium BC and continues on today, as opposed to any pre-Adamic human civilizations which may have existed from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years ago.

If there were pre-Adamic civilizations, they could have reached as high a level of technology as in our society today. For the Bible says that "there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things" (Ecclesiastes 1:9-11). And even our future technology could have already been invented during past eons, for "that which is to be hath already been" (Ecclesiastes 3:15).

But all past-eons technology on the earth could have been obliterated by God, leaving no trace of it, just as all of our own technology today (and in our future) will eventually be obliterated by God, when "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10b). Here "earth" could mean just the surface of the earth, for the planet itself could continue on forever (Ecclesiastes 1:4, Psalms 104:5, Psalms 78:69b), so that the future "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) could mean a new surface of the earth.

-

Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC, by "human" is meant human civilization in general, as opposed to the civilization of any particular people (e.g. Aztec civilization).

Also, by "human" civilization is meant civilization started by humans as opposed to any non-human animals. For preceding the 1st human civilization, there could have been non-human, mammalian civilizations some 65 to 2 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent horse-like creatures (cf. the strange horse-like creatures in Revelation 9:17-19). These could have rebelled against God and then been banished from this planet, and forced to live, perhaps, in underground bases on the far side of this planet's moon or on the next planet out from the sun. For the future army of 200 million weird horse-like creatures in Revelation 9:16-19 will have to come from somewhere.

Preceding the first mammalian civilization, there could have been reptilian civilizations some 250 to 65 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent dinosaur/dragon creatures (cf. Satan being a dragon in Revelation 12:9).

And preceding the first reptilian civilization, there could have been amphibian civilizations some 350 to 250 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent frog-like creatures, who could have rebelled against God and become unclean spirits (cf. the frog-like creatures/unclean spirits in Revelation 16:13-14).

And preceding the first amphibian civilization, there could have been insect civilizations some 450 to 350 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent locust-like creatures (cf. the strange locust-like creatures in Revelation 9:3-10), who could have rebelled against God and been banished to a cavern deep underground (cf. the sealed pit in Revelation 9:1b-3,11).

-

Someone might ask: "But don't only humans have the hands required to build things and civilizations?"

The various strange creatures mentioned above could have human-like hands. For they aren't the same as the horses, locusts, frogs, etc. which we can see today. And the Bible shows that non-human creatures can have human-like hands (Ezekiel 1:5-14).

*******



Before the fall of Adam and Eve into sin, death didn't exist for Adam and Eve. But note that nothing requires that death didn't exist for anything that God could have created on the earth before that.
I don't agree with you. You are rejecting the clear teaching of Scripture to try to make it compatible with the long ages view the godless require--you and everyone else on here who has written back to me on this.
 
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Fusion77

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Agreed. But those five verses are more about what the dragon did to kill Jesus as a child, then about how the dragon got to be there. God just chose to include that detail.
Once you understand that Revelation 12:6 is also historically in the past, you'll have a better understanding of the time line. The 1/2 of the week will not be 1260 days exactly. It can't, the calendar won't allow it. The abomination of desolation would actually occur just before a leap year.
 
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iamlamad

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I have given you the scripture regarding the abomination of desolation where the 1335 days is found. It is in Daniel 12:11-12

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.



No that does not match with Danie 11:11. The abomination of desolation is setup - in text. It is talking about an image, a statue, not a person going into the temple claiming to be God.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

And what exact scripture are you claiming says the man of sin enters the temple on day 1260? to declare that he is God. Copy and paste the day 1260 scripture you are claiming.

So? The extra 30 days comes AFTER the 1260, not before it. If you notice, the 70th week ends with the 7ti vial of Rev. 16, but Jesus does not return until chapter 19. What is in between? Of course TIME is in-between. If you notice, the 42 months of authority is given after all the other mentions of the last half of the week. That count BEGINS after all the others, so of course will end after all the others.
The Beast is not caught until some time AFTER the week has ended.

Therefore the extra 30 days comes at the END, not the beginning.
Yes, there will be an abomination SET UP, as the image that will be built. But that image is not built until AFTER the False prophet shows up. It will be his idea. The abomination will come at 2520/2. That is written in stone, so to speak, and cannot be altered. It will happen EXACTLY as God has said it.

Dan. 9:27
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."


Notice it is the sacrifice ceasing that divides the week. NOT the abomination.

Midst = chetsiy
  1. half
    1. half
    2. middle
Exo 24:6
And Moses took half H2677 of the blood, and put it in basons; and half H2677 of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.


Exo 25:10
And they shall make an ark of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood: two cubits and a half H2677 shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half H2677 the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half H2677 the height thereof.

Dan 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; H2677 and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

1Ki 3:25
And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half H2677 to the one, and half H2677 to the other.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


I know this at first looks like a from / to statement. It is not. I puzzled of this verse for a long time.

In verse 1 of chapter 12 Daniel heard and/or saw this time of great trouble, as Jesus called days of great tribulation. Then we read this:

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

So the end is the end "of these wonders" or the end of the days of GT. The start would be the START of these wonders or the start of this time of great trouble. Jesus told us it will start with the abomination.

Then an angel spoke and said the end of these wonders would be time, times, and half of time, or 3.5 years. Daniel did not understand so ask again. He was asking about the END. He knew the start was the start of the days of GT. He wanted to know long long these terrible days would last. But the angel chose to show him the exact beginning to the end.

So the angel clarified his answer in days. Remember, his first answer was 3.5 years. We know that answer was from the midpoint ceasing of the sacrifices to the end of the week. Therefore I believe what this verse is telling us is that starting from the day the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God (caused the daily sacrifices to cease) to the end of the wonders will be 1290 days.
Not to the end of the week, but to the end of the wonders.

If the ceasing of the sacrifices is what divides the week, and that is EXACTLY what Daniel tells us, and you take this for a from / to statement, then we add 1290 days, we are past the end of the week before the image is ever set up. I don't think that is the intent of the author. I don't think it will take the beast 1290 days to "set up" or "give out" any abomination.

It seems then that the "set up" or as Young's put it, "the giving out of the desolating abomination" and the ceasing of the daily sacrifices must come on the same day and that would be the day that divides the week.

Notice how this very same word translated as "set up" is used in other verses:

Gen 1:29
And God said, Behold, I have given H5414 you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Gen 3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave H5414 also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Gen 3:12
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest H5414 to be with me, she gave H5414 me of the tree, and I did eat.

Gen 4:12
When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield H5414 unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

Gen 9:2
And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. H5414

Gen 9:3
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given H5414 you all things.

Gen 9:12
And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make H5414 between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:


I therefore put more emphasis on Dan. 9:27 where it is very clear that it is the ceasing of the sacrifices that divides the week, and that into two halves. When I add what Paul wrote, I think the EVENT that causes the stopping of the sacrifices will be the man of sin entering the temple. So from that point in time to the 7th vial that ends the week will be 1260 days. Then, the "end of the wonders" will come 30 days later, perhaps when the Beast and False prophet are caught.

I think then the real intent of the Author is this:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days [to the end of the wonders]
 
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Lamad
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Once you understand that Revelation 12:6 is also historically in the past, you'll have a better understanding of the time line. The 1/2 of the week will not be 1260 days exactly. It can't, the calendar won't allow it. The abomination of desolation would actually occur just before a leap year.

I wish you would give some proof of this. I have believed in 1260 days for as long as I knew it was scripture. You will have to have real proof written in scripture rightly divided for me to change my mind.
Why won't a calendar allow it? Daniel and John used a DIFFERENT calendar! Their calendar had 360 days of 30 day months. This won't "fit" our calendar. It WILL fit what will happen: from the ceasing of the daily sacrifices to the 7th vial that ends the week will be exactly 1260 days. You can take that to the bank, so to speak.
 
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