Poll: Christians, what do you think will happen to Atheists after death? [Pt. 2]

Heatios said:

This one is more of, what you think will happen to them after death.

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And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15,16).

One does not even have to be evil or immoral to meet this criterion. A very moral person who rejects Christ is damned.

They may get one last chance to accept Christ Jesus as our Savior and the Son of God

My signature rocks !!!!

Heatios said:

Because you do, and it saddens me to think that you accept that messed up system as truth.

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Why be sad about me believing something you believe to not be true? What rational basis does your naturalism - I assume you believe there is nothing beyond nature - give for you to be sad about anything? And from your perspective, isn't your sadness simply the result of a electro-chemical physical process in your head? (Oops...I just realized I answered for you the first question with the second question.)

Heatios said:

Because you do, and it saddens me to think that you accept that messed up system as truth.

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Why messed up? If I offer you a gift and you tell me to stuff that gift and spit in my face why then would you think that if I give the exact same gift to someone else that gratefully accepts it that I am somehow being unjust?

godshapedhole said:

I don't have a problem with the idea that a murderer or even someone as evil as Hitler could hypothetically be redeemed. I do have a problem with the idea that a loving, compassionate atheist (or Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu) who does nothing but good in their lives could be sentenced to eternal torment for simply not believing in Jesus, that is not a God worthy of worship.

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By Gods standards every good deed is a filthy rag and what counts is really why we did it vis a vis him. I have met deeply self righteous atheists who think that they are better than the Christian standard cause they do x and y. But at the end of the day they are like people who help you with your spelling and miss the big issue of saving you from the truck that is hurtling towards you. Your worldly existence and works are not as important as your eternal salvation. Salvation is by Jesus or it does not happen. So I voted that most atheists are probably going to hell but you cannot be sure because it is God that makes the final decision.

I do believe that some atheists will be saved because they honestly responded to the realities that informed their lives. Many atheists in Islamic countries may be saved for instance cause they rejected what was clearly wrong and false and attempted to live by what they knew of the good. But if they are saved then they are saved by Christ and only without repentance and confession because they did the best they good with the law that was written on their own hearts. However Western Liberal atheists in the main have little chance of salvation in my view cause they are without the excuse of ignorance (except wilful ignorance which does not count).

I think people might find Christianity, and therefore Christ, more attractive and less off-putting if so many Christians weren't so sanctimonious, so sure of their own righteousness and everyone else's damnation.

Heatios said:

Couldn't agree more with you.

I want to have civilized debates, but eventually most christians end up just yelling "YOU'RE WRONG" at me endlessly.

More christians need to learn how to debate if they want to have a discussion, instead of just insisting that they are correct as if repeating it will suddenly make them correct.

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Not all Christians resort to ultimatums. In fact, a few of us are more than willing to discuss, in depth, an issue---almost any issue. What I find to be true more often than not is that people in general, whether Christian or whatever else, are not willing, or motivated, to delve into the details.

2PhiloVoid

Even before I deconverted from Christianity, and was an atheist for a time, I've always believed that God's love is far reaching, and unfathomable. Never really got into the whole 'this one is going to hell, that one is going to heaven' kind of thinking. Even now upon returning to faith, the ideas of heaven and hell still mystify me.

Heatios said:

I agree with this. Also, I said "a majority" because I know this doesn't apply to all. I said a majority because a large amount for sure, hold their belief very close, so when they are challenged instead of calmly evaluating the other persons position, considering it, they have this preconceived notion that their argument is true by default, and most of the time will resort to intellectually dishonest argument tactics such as ad hominem's or ad nauseam's, which puts off people from not only wanting to consider the position but from wanting to engage in the first place.

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Yes, you're right. There are a number of people, even Christians, who have a disposition that doesn't permit other considerations, or defeat, whatsoever. >>>>>>

But then again, maybe it's not conducive to the effort of building civility to also seek debate in a culture harboring polarized political and religious convictions.

Maybe we should instead seek civilized discussion and exploration of thought rather than debate?

Peace
2PhiloVoid

2PhiloVoid said:

Maybe we should instead seek civilized discussion and exploration of thought rather than debate?

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I agree, I'm a person who doesn't believe in God, but I'm not at all sure whether my beliefs are correct, I'm willing to admit that I may be wrong. I'm curious about Christianity, yet it's very disheartening to see so many people who basically just say "wrong, going to hell".

How can Christians be so sure of the exact particulars of their beliefs? The Bible is after all not the direct word of God, in the manner that that the Quran supposedly is, but a curated anthology of works written by men, purportedly with divine inspiration or guidance. And how many of us here read the Bible in its original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek? Most of us read it in one or more English translations, so no matter how good the translation, some of it is inevitably lost on us.

godshapedhole said:

I agree, I'm a person who doesn't believe in God, but I'm not at all sure whether my beliefs are correct, I'm willing to admit that I may be wrong. I'm curious about Christianity, yet it's very disheartening to see so many people who basically just say "wrong, going to hell".

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It's understandable that you feel this way; even I sometimes get a condemning reaction from others who are supposed to be fellow Christians. I don't mind if someone says something rhetorical to *smack* my attention, but I don't expect them to imply that I'm going to hell, for instance, simply because I don't think Adam and Eve were necessarily real people.

How can Christians be so sure of the exact particulars of their beliefs?

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That is indeed a philosophical pretzel, with deep epistemological implications, and I agree with you that Christians should be a little more flexible in their advocacy. But...it would also be odd for someone to claim faith with little to no feeling of conviction about their beliefs.

The Bible is after all not the direct word of God, in the manner that that the Quran supposedly is, but a curated anthology of works written by men, purportedly with divine inspiration or guidance.

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To some extent, you're right, but there are places in the Bible that supposedly report direct dialogue from God; it comes in bits and pieces in the Bible, with lots of indirect connective tissue, so to speak.

And how many of us here read the Bible in its original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek? Most of us read it in one or more English translations, so no matter how good the translation, some of it is inevitably lost on us.

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Very true, and this is one reason Christians should work on the way in which they deliver their message. Unfortunately, social skills and emotional intelligence, like the skills of reading Hebrew and Greek, typically have to be learned, and if a leader of a church (or family) does not think these things are important to Christian life and understanding, then the expression of Christian belief in that church (or family) will tend to be different than it is in a church that does value those skills. So, we have a range of Christian "types," such as those at Westboro Baptist, who like to picket with hate signs at abortion clinics, gay parades, and soldiers funerals, to those other churches that focus on preaching the Gospel, as well as helping the homeless, staving off social ills like the sex trade, and just generally aiding others in need.

At the same time, should we expect Christians to be rug-mats whenever confronted by those who disagree with Christian faith?

Peace
2PhiloVoid

2PhiloVoid said:

So, we have a range of Christian "types," such as those at Westboro Baptist, who like to picket with hate signs at abortion clinics, gay parades, and soldiers funerals, to those other churches that focus on preaching the Gospel, as well as helping the homeless, staving off social ills like the sex trade, and just generally aiding others in need.

At the same time, should we expect Christians to be rug-mats whenever confronted by those who disagree with Christian faith?

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No, they shouldn't have to, I feel people's beliefs, even if they are perceived to be offensive, deserve a certain amount of respect, or at least the person holding them deserves some respect, and its an ideal I'll be the first to admit I don't always live up to, and someone please give me a smack in the face if I fail.

You spoke of some of the the more antagonistic and inflammatory Christians out there, and they certainly have their secular counterparts. I'm quite a fan of Richard Dawkins' science writings, he writes well and eloquently on evolutionary biology, but when it comes to the discourse between atheists and believers, I have to part ways with him (not that I'm comparing him to the Westboro Baptist Church), he's far too antagonistic and disrespectful for my taste.

I'm gay (although sexually inactive and with no desire to get married), and I'm politically liberal leaning, and I have to say I find the level of intolerance amongst gay marriage supporters troubling - I support gay marriage, but I don't mind that people oppose it based on religious conviction, and I certainly don't believe they should be labeled as bigots for their beliefs.

godshapedhole said:

I think people might find Christianity, and therefore Christ, more attractive and less off-putting if so many Christians weren't so sanctimonious, so sure of their own righteousness and everyone else's damnation.

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No Christian asserts their own righteousness because it is imputed by grace.

It is sad that atheists place themselves at the centre rather than Christ. The necessary paradigm shift to becoming a Christian involves accepting someone better, more alive, more real, more beautiful than any other. To dwell in the gloom of introverted shadows is just sad.

godshapedhole said:

No, they shouldn't have to, I feel people's beliefs, even if they are perceived to be offensive, deserve a certain amount of respect, or at least the person holding them deserves some respect, and its an ideal I'll be the first to admit I don't always live up to, and someone please give me a smack in the face if I fail.

You spoke of some of the the more antagonistic and inflammatory Christians out there, and they certainly have their secular counterparts. I'm quite a fan of Richard Dawkins' science writings, he writes well and eloquently on evolutionary biology, but when it comes to the discourse between atheists and believers, I have to part ways with him (not that I'm comparing him to the Westboro Baptist Church), he's far too antagonistic and disrespectful for my taste.

I'm gay (although sexually inactive and with no desire to get married), and I'm politically liberal leaning, and I have to say I find the level of intolerance amongst gay marriage supporters troubling - I support gay marriage, but I don't mind that people oppose it based on religious conviction, and I certainly don't believe they should be labeled as bigots for their beliefs.

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Although we'd admittedly disagree about some things, I really, really like your communication style here. I wish people could just sit down and discuss things with a positive, constructive attitude as you demonstrate above. (In the ideal world, I know we would ... )

Thanks for that!

2PhiloVoid

Answering this is as close as what I would call offensive. It goes against me as a person for judging individuals, as a group which I don't belong to and as a Christian for presuming I would know what God has in store for others.

I choose that I am not sure. I find it hard to believe that a non believer who is good all their life will be condemned to hell. I think there maybe a second chance of some sort. Maybe everyone that is not saved will be raised and shown the truth about God given another chance. I dont think there is a hard and fast rule about a belief in Christ in that we have to go to church and be a certain way. I think that those who tend to those in need and love others is being Christ like. When Jesus was asked about what a person had to do to receive the Kingdom of heaven he always used examples like the good Samaritan. Or He said when you give a person in need who is thirsty a drink of water you are giving Christ a drink.

Christ also said many who think they will be the first in Heaven will end up being the last and those who people think are the last to make it will be first. So I think many who look like they are doing the right thing in going to church and living a good life are like the pharisees. Many who are just going around helping others are like Christ said who would enter the Kingdom of heave, He also said there are many rooms in Heaven so its not so black and white as to what criteria there is to enter Heaven. Its to hard to work out, and only God will know.